If you suspect you have been defrauded or someone is trying to pull a fast one on you with cars illegal here in the US here are a few links to you can report this to. I am not suggesting that you go turn in a fellow enthusiast that is enjoying their ride, live and let live, but if they are trying to sell you something that is an obvious fake or you have been sold something that turns out to be illegal you have options.

The Department of Justice << This is a good place to start. If enough people make a noise we can curtail this criminal activity.

National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration << These folks police VIN theft and parts theft. Another great resource with articles pertaining to this subject.

Department of Transportation << This agency oversees many other state and local transportation offices.

US Department of Homeland Security - US Customs << This is where it all begins and ends. A fantastic resource and a group very interested in securing our borders from illegal people and goods entering our country.

And if you suspect someone locally you can start with your local police department and Department of Motor Vehicles. At least put your complaint here, their hands are tied to a certain degree, but if it is followed up with DOJ or DHS when the federal authorities get involved the local yokels wont be in the dark. I suggest covering all your bases, and expect some confusion. Don’t give up! Only you can stop this, even if it is one car at a time. It is time to STOP looking the other way. If it was your identity that was stolen you wouldn’t think twice about perusing all avenues to reclaim what it rightfully yours. If you reclaim the identity of one of these vehicles, you can help reunite stolen cars with their rightful owners, and stop the criminal element trying to make a quick buck on the backs of ignorant buyers.

 

FOAD!

I don't know who the hell you think you are, but I think you've way overstepped the boundarys of internet car board postings with this one............

Since you've published your views on revins so often, I do not think you're talking about odo rollbacks or floodcars here, you're talking Minis............I think you need to go away.

We're car guys, not snitches for the government.

 

Well that ain't going to happen.. you are entitled to your opinion. If NAM thinks this is a disservice to this board they are welcome to take it down. It is surely within their rules.

 

what a loving Mini community we have, regardless of year...

 

plan and simple, if you plan on buying a classic vehicle, do homework prior to buying if you care about the mumbo jumbo stuff.....the more you know about a classic vehicle your interested in the better buyer you will be....(period)

 

What is it about the re-vin that keeps you up at night? Maybe people wouldn't get so irritated at you if we knew why it bothers you so much.

 

I lose no sleep over it that's for sure. I have previously tried to get it through people's heads that if this trend continues it will ultimately destroy the finite number of Minis left on this planet. The people who do this have absolutely no regard for the car, its heritage or it's value (and I am not talking about money). It is by far one of the most unique and most influential vehicles ever to grace this planet. It is our duty to protect it and to pass it along to our children and grandchildren. Most people only think of one car, theirs, and not the big picture. It is not unreasonable, under current law to buy legal or not at all. As cool as it is to drive a SPI or MPI it is not worth destroying its VIN to accommodate our self indulgence.

Just as much as it upsets people that I bring light to this "trend" it upsets me and many others that their arrogance to thumb their nose at those willing to abide by the law, no matter how stupid the laws might be.

My opinions are mine and can be mine alone, if no one has any more regard for the car that's fine. I am not looking to snitch anyone out, as a matter of fact some folks that have newer cars are great people, I would hate that their decisions to ignore laws would get them into trouble, but that's their call not mine. I didn't convince them or tell them or sell them what they have.

How can anyone get irritated with me by doing what's right, by exposing 1000's of cars that are being destroyed. A re-VIN car is nothing more than a junkyard car being driven or displayed. It is valueless except to those who chose to have them. When they come of age and are legal their value will plummet making them obsolete. It is a huge black eye to the cars creator and I can imagine that Sir Alec would roll over in his grave if he thought that his creation was being raped of it's history.

Whatever, people who have them enjoy the heck out of them, drive them into the dirt, but every single one that is on eBay or a car bulletin board for sale is one more trying to sell their own mistakes and trying to convince everyone of something it is not and is a crime of the lowest caliber.

I guess I am putting the car before people and I do that mostly because the car will outlast them leaving a piece of junk to those who these are left to. It is unfair to the future and to my children and to yours. Every Mini in the world will be legal in this country in 2025. 17 years of patience is not a lot to ask to save 10's of thousands of cars. But as I can see it is like beating my head against the wall to change anyone's view so instead of changing anyone's mind that have them now, I will keep the pressure on so that anyone looking to buy a Mini in the future knows the repercussions of buying an illegal car. It is a very serious issue and I hear the victimless crime argument, that does not fly. It is not hard to believe that stolen vehicles are entering into this country under the guise of the US population wanting new classics. People are getting hurt let alone the cars.

I have had two classic cars stolen, a 64 Chevrolet Impala SS and a Vintage 60 VW both mint, re-VINed and in Mexico as far as law enforcement can determine due to the fact they were stolen in San Diego. It is not a victimless crime and people and insurance companies are losing millions of dollars a year. The thing that makes the Mini unique over the SS or VW is they all look the same and it is easier to hide these vehicles.

As I said, whatever, if people are comfortable driving their cars that have no history and enjoy driving a car that could have been someone else's pride and joy, thats their call, I am not their judge. I am not here to judge anyone, but the "trend" is out of control and noone cares, so that makes it all ok in most people's eyes.

The most disturbing thing in all of this are those of us who have been involved in these cars for decades not willing to wait a few more years to own their legal SPI and MPI Minis or chose to look the other way when people try to sell them. Dealers and individuals who started out with the right heart, but somewhere down the line was moved to break the law and refuse to change to protect the integrety of the Mini and it's community.

Hate me if you want, call me names, threaten me and my family (which has already been done), threaten my legal classic I have owned 36 years, but lets be real, the only person at fault are those who either buy one, import one, or try to sell one to people who dont know better. I agree wholeheartedly with Norm that you need to investigate and know exactly what you are buying. At the same time you need to know the law, and what the repercussions are to breaking them. Who is to blame, only those involved in this "trend", not me and surely not the officials that uphold the law.

Change the laws, I am all for it. The more Mini's the better! I would love the opportunity to drive a legal 2000 MPI Mini tomorrow. But until then I will raise my voice against Re-VINing and destroying cars just to appease our self indulgence. There are more than enough legal Minis here and in the UK to support our desire to drive a classic Mini. God knows I know the joy of it and would not deny anyone that opportunity, I just dont get why anyone would risk it all.

 

I'm at a loss at what you are trying to do here. You posted pretty much the same thread last week and it got the same response as this one did. If people are threatening you, you only have yourself to blame cause you get the same response every time yet you still keep doing it. I am truly sorry that some of your cars have been stolen and you make a good point that some of these cars may have been stolen. The way you are making your point now is by kicking them in the face and then expecting them to listen to you. I'm not trying to argue with you or anything like that, I just hate to see our little "classic mini talk family" get ripped apart by a bunch of un needed controversy. If you want to make a point then make it but do it in a way that don't start a flame war and don't keep dwelling on it. We are a pretty laid back group of people here and I'll listen to your opinion but don't force it on me.

However, I think that most of the re-vins are someone that could make more money by getting a vin tag off a rust bucket in a junkyard that's about to see the scrapper anyway and then selling the car for much more money to someone in the us. To me this is preserving the newer ones because they are getting to a collector rather than being used as a grocery getter for someone that doesn't have the cash for a new car. But you can look at it any way you want.

 

Why did you ask then? I knew I had already said it, but you asked again. I just posted a thread for those who have been defrauded by underhanded practices that permeate this "trend".

Ignore me if you don't get it, and really it's ok if you don't. I am not here to convince you or anyone else to change your mind. It's really not all about you. It's about the Mini and it's future not one individual or one specific re-VINed classic, Mini or otherwise.

I encourage you to ignore me, I see nothing in my original post that deserved to be responded to as FOAD. I did not start that nonsense, part of the "family" did.

Sorry the truth of the matter envolks such a response, but I will not be silenced because of it or because people dont get it. Some do, and if I can effect even one person from being duped into making a stupid decision, my sleep loss as you say is worth it.

I just don't get why people have to argue about a point that cant be argued. This forum may have a tight knit family of regular users and I applaud that and consider that part of the Mini experience, has been from the beginning and in the UK a whole new generation is taking up the Mini cause. What people seem to forget is that this forum is worldwide and being seen by anyone who searches for answers on Minis. I am not posting for your benefit or the Classic NAM Mini family but to those who are out there looking for answers about the Mini. When the thread turns to a flame it is not because of what I said. I did not call names, point fingers, call out anyone, or require any response whatsoever. If I could lock my thread, I would.

 

I sort of agree with "let the buyer beware", but if someone is going to sell an illegal late model Mini & then misrepresent it by telling the buyer it is an updated 1961 Mini or some such carp shame on them. The buyer should know what they are buying.

I think most folks know all about re vin numbered Mini's & don't have a problem with it. I'm not going to blow the whistle on anyone who has one. IMO it is their business. If I knew of someone selling one that didn't disclose that fact, now that could be another thing.

As far as this thread goes. It really only serves to get a fire started. I believe everyone here has no problem with re vin numbered cars so the OP's warnings are sort of having the same effect as yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Motor on...

 

so what do you suggest be done if you want to or have purchased a shell that you wanna restore or build, and it has no vin, no title, no paper trail......cause god know's there are tons of those for sale all over the place.....leaving it sit as scrap metal is not keeping he mini history alive....by getting it vin'd and restoring it, you are only helping the mini's stay around and stay with us throughout the yrs to come

 

That's easy Norm, It can be titled as a kit car just like if you were to get a newer 2000 in pieces and put it together, or if you are using salvage parts it should be given a salvage title, just like any other car. The VIN is the history of that vehicle, if it has none, there are legal ways to get one and the history starts at the restoration, not by another car that it was robbed from.

If I go rescue a classic mustang from the junkyard and re-shell it the title doesn't change, it is still a salvage title. It is against the law to re-vin those too to make it look like anything that it isn't.

Yelling fire in the middle of a theater that is on fire I don't consider wrong.. sorry. And to believe that people just accept the practice of breaking the law, is not responsible. I believe that most people would rather not break the law. if we disagree on this point I am ok with that.

There are legal ways of importing a 2000 Mini into this country without the possibility of having it crushed or going to jail. You have the car shipped in pieces, you assemble the car and present it to the state that you want the title, they will assign their own number to it and title it as a kit car after they investigate any numbers on the vehicle. You may have to bond it if they can not determine if the car is stolen or that it is not what it appears to be then you are good to go. Selling a 2000 as a 1960 is the problem and bypassing laws is my point. I am not trying to get honest working people in trouble or trying to invoke some type of emotional response, just trying to deter people from making a mistake that could land them in jail. Not the person already driving the re-vin but those who still haven't made the choice.

 

I for one completely agree with Mercy and I think the manner he is posting and responding is very polite and respectful.

I disagree with the people who say "I think everyone knows about re-vins already" because A)I didn't know it was such a huge problem until getting into a classic Mini myself B)not one of the honest car-friends I have would even consider such a thing occurring. I came up working the pits at the vintage races for 5 years and been involved with classics/restorations for over 10 and a re-vin would never come up in that community. You would be ostracized for doing so. Also, the "most people know about it" theory is blown out of the water by non-enthusiasts entering the scene. Hell I have to explain to 7/10 people that the classic Mini was in fact FWD. With the current fuel-mileage trend, the 40+mpg of the classic, and the fact that they are cool, available, and relatively inexpensive, there are bound to be people getting into them that really have no idea. With the obvious visual similarity between generations of Mini that continue to confuse the authorities, you can bet your *** that there are honest consumers being duped as well.

Since I heard of the problem, I've kept a watchful eye on it and seen it gaining popularity even outside the Mini community. There is a local dealer selling a Sportspack as a 70. There's a Sunny GTI-R (a turbocharged AWD Pulsar hatchback, JDM car) on craigslist right now that is titled as a Pulsar NX. He admitted to it right in the ad and bragged that his insurance was only $300/6mo because of it. I think of this and cringe - insurance fraud as well as Vin fraud? The best part would be if there ever was an accident and the car would be immediately totaled because it would only be insured for the value of a Pulsar NX ($1000 at best!). Not only would the car be totaled, then seized, and crushed, the owner could and likely would go to prison. A few years back there were crates of illegal Nissan Skylines being imported that were seized at Customs, crushed immediately, and the importers ent to jail. I saw with my very own two eyes a Washington-plated R32 Skyline GTS-T (not the AWD one) being towed onto a flatbed with a WA State Patrol car present, lights flashing. Why? I am not 100% sure BUT knowing that the car is not on the import list and was certainly not federalized might have something to do with it.

In any case all it would take is a knowledgeable police officer to pull you over, determine your car is a re-vin, and arrest you/crush the car on the spot. NO ONE deserves that happening to them. Yes, we are all enthusiasts, but the choices we make could lead that direction.

Honestly the Mini is not a rare car in the UK. Why then are Re-Vins dominating the import market? It would be just as costly to import VIN-legal cars to the USA, so why bring over a re-VIN? If you look at the cars for sale it is obvious they are NOT cars recovered from certain death by junkyard. They are not shells resued from a barn or field somewhere that just happen to have had their number plates rust off. It is issues like this that cloud all issues; the "what ifs" that define the exception not the rule. The salvage title is NOT what is being imported. The cars are typically in very good condition! The reason they choose newer cars and re-vin is because they are most likely stolen! Once it leaves the UK there's really not much that can be done.

Personally I WOULD lose sleep at night knowing I was driving a car that was probably stolen from another motoring enthusiast. That's just the ethics of it, not the worry that it might be crushed. Much like Mercy, I believe that the responsibility of the enthusiast is not to allow corruption of our favorite marque by those who see fit to flood the market with likely-stolen vehicles.

 

Here's something so obvious I didn't even think of it. Whos to say your re-VIN wasn't stolen in the States and re-VIN'd here? How is that any different from buying a stolen Honda Civic or Porsche 911? KNOWING that the VIN has been swapped is almost an admission of guilt.

 

or, what if you create your own vin #

 

You are not allowed to import cars less than 25 years into the states. So they buy a title and vin plate from a older junk car and bring it over. Pretty easy and it does not mean they are stolen. So they sell a car that will fetch much less in the uk cause its common to the states where its rare.


All I'm saying is that mercy posted pretty much the same thread a week ago, then apologized for being so harsh and then did it again anyway. This post basically threatens owners/sellers of revins so why are you surprised that you get a response of FOAD. All I am trying to say if if you want to get a point across don't do it in a way that instantly ticks people off. Thats accomplishes nothing and the point gets lost in the flame war. I was trying to help you make a meaningfull thread instead of starting a flame war again and you attack me. The reason why I asked you was because I wanted to know if you were just interested in starting a brawl or if there was some reason that this gets you all worked up.

 

Huh? I see no personal attacks on you or anyone. No finger pointing, no threats. As far as making a point without ticking people off concerning this subject is pretty much impossible, it is going to make someone mad. The only words I can see that you might consider an attack is I said it wasn't about you and if it offends you or anyone then you should ignore me. I have approached this matter as a friend willing to go to the mat to help change the laws, and get the same response.

As far as being told to FOAD, being threatened or whatever, I don't bring that on. I don't make the decision for these people to react and act out of some emotional response. Just as I dont hold a gun to their head to break the laws regulating these cars. I am sure the war on drugs has the same issues and same type of responses by those who have friends that are addicts and those who chose to do drugs. Should that change my mind about wanting to eliminate them from our streets? I don't think so.

Billzcats, thank you for seeing the post as it is and realizing I had and have a right to expose a gross trend that in any other vehicle market would be ostracized for presenting a re-VIN or selling one.

If someone came to you and tried to sell you a new MINI and told you it was re-VIN'd would you buy it? If so, that makes you an accessory to a federal crime and as Bill said is an admission of guilt and makes you a part of the problem if it becomes an acceptable trend. Same with any other car, Porsche, Nissan, Honda, whatever. Saying re-VIN is acceptable for the Mini is irresponsible and buying and selling them knowing they are illegal is criminal, bottom line.

Let me very clear, I am talking about taking the VIN off one vehicle and putting it on another with the intent of changing the newer cars's identity. Selling cars that are obviously SP and MP Minis as something they are not. Illegal cars in this country. If people were going to the junkyard taking VINs off 1967 Minis and putting them on 1967 Minis we would be hard pressed to prove any foul play and would go under the radar pretty easily. Or if one was stolen off your car and you have the title and you replace it, so what, you are trying to maintain the integrity of the car. You remove it to paint, and put it back without altering it, that's not the problem at all (still against the law in many states if not all). Norm, if you are trying to give the car it's original numbers re-creating a VIN, I don't think anyone has issue with that, so making a VIN using the chassis number, and a good investigative process to establish the true VIN for a car is protecting the car not destroying it and your not trying to make it something it is not. Now if you make a works Mini or a Cooper S out of it and create a VIN to get more money for it, then that's where I would think the line is. I am not advocating that this should be done on any level, but who is to stop you and why should they. It can be titled as a kit car legally no matter what, and if you have a good detailed history of the build, I don't see why the title would effect the value of the car, same with a salvage title, so what! If I find a salvage Shelby Mustang, and rebuild it from the ground up and show what I have done, then the value comes in its history and the parts used to restore it.

Anyways, I am sorry if you felt attacked Stratsman, I know saying it wasn't about you sounded harsh, but these are forums seen all over the world by new enthusiasts looking for answers more than just a place to hang out as a family. Don't get me wrong, it is awesome and expected and has been so for almost 50 years that people with these cars are immediately part of a unique family and feel it the moment they drive one of our precious cars. The fact that the same has happened for the BMW MINI is a testament to the Mini/MINI <<lets get it right Mini came first and remains there

If I am brand new to the idea of buying a Mini, a law abiding, tax paying citizen, and went to eBay or the cars for sale at MM boards and knew no better (and how would I if no one is willing to talk about it), I would buy the nicest one I could find, and if it is sold as a 1970 and I buy it without knowing that it is re-Vin'd I could lose 10k+ investment and go to jail, I would appreciate someone telling me that there is fraud being perpetrated in the community and to beware of the spec, Spi and Mpi Mini. Is it easier for me to shut up, of course, make me more popular, maybe. But you asked why this is such a passion for me and what makes it so I cant sleep at night? Would you want your son, daughter, father, mother to buy a new car just to be arrested, their car crushed and their hard earned money gone, I think not, and if you do and don't care, well I consider those that get so mad at me those that dont, so to be honest I don't care what name is leveled at me, I don't have time to even respond to those individuals. Stratsman, I see you are level headed and trying to help calm the emotions, and it is very much appreciated. I have been calm, collected, and respectful to those who disagree. If reading any thread I start is a waste of time though, if you see my name next to it, I would encourage anyone not to read it and to keep their foul responses to themselves.

 

If this is such a problem and the public, at least the Mini buying public, needs to be educated then you went about it terribly.

Why not write about what the problem is and how to look for it. Educate us. It took me until about the 10th post to figure out what was being discussed here. I think you lost 99% of the people with the first post. I only kept up since the post was reported and I wanted to make sure that ya'll weren't beating each other over the head with sticks.

If the article is well written and has pictures I'll even entertain publishing it in the NAM Alliance Magazine.

 

If you want to get the word out maybe make a real nice write up on what a re-vin is and how to spot one. That would be a better way to make your point without having a hostile response.

These threads end up going to the second page after a week or so anyway so do you plan to keep posting threads like this every week? It seems to me that getting everyone's blood boiling turns people away and that hurts the normal everyday conversation that goes on around here. There's got to be a better way to do this.

 

I can do this, this thread should have never gotten to this point obviously. And the first post was just what it was, an informational link to places people could go if they have been defrauded. The emotional response is something I seem not to be able to get away from. I did originally write up how to look for it, how to identify it and it turned into a slugfest so I dropped it for a time.

I will write an article in response to your request. I will collaborate with anyone willing to add to it.

 

Thats why an article for the magazine would helpful. I'm working on a seachable index where one can find these items later.

 

Yawn.

 

Oi Vey!

Take all this pent-up passion/ambition and do something genuinely worthwhile, like go to a different forum all together and preach to humanity about something truly serious, like human-trafficking. I'd understand the intensity here if it were someone's daughter who had been kidnapped and sold as a sex slave in Bankock, but some little piece-o-crap tin can car?

Oh please... Dude, are you serious? May I suggest a cocktail containing Lithium? I suggest that you visit www.managingbipolar.com

All this hot air is threatening the existance of our Polar Bears--something much more worthy to pass along to (my) grandchildren.

You don't understand why folks are ruffled? Get a clue, pal... I regard NAM's classic mini forum as a little hiding place to visit each day. A place where I can indulge in frivoluous, meaningless discussion about sourcing a tail light... or something really significant, like whether to "ruin" one of Issigonis' babies by replacing the fenders with a flip front... You know, harmless distractions during a day otherwise frought with Mortgage melt downs, Wall Street implosions, Fannie and Freddie Freaking out, local annual murder rate escalating to 130 per year, etc.

Call me shallow, but I don't want to turn my stupid little hobby/escape into a big, bad problem with CAVEATE EMPTOR!!! headlines nailing me everyday.

It's usually a comfortable little "living room" with the same 20-25 regulars who visit this forum. We enjoy not talking politics, federal laws and imprisonment. We generally get along and like to help each other with petty little challenges that routinely occur with our toys.

Take all your serious hyperbolie elsewhere, please.

 

Ha, that from someone who drives a wanna-be 06 BMW who has no clue. Your car has already depreciated from the time it drove off the lot and wont ever be worth what you paid for it.

 

No shi*%t Sherlock. I have never leased or purchased any car (including BMWs and BMW-designed MINIs) as an investment.


MINI's are wannabe BMWs? Silly me for "trading down" to one.