Drivetrain The TEAMMIGHTYMINIZ Intake Shootout presented by motoring|underground
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01-28-2006, 11:12 PM
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The TEAMMIGHTYMINIZ Intake Shootout presented by motoring|underground
...is finally available for your reading pleasure. 
Check it out; I'm sure you guys'll let me know exactly what you think.
http://www.motoringunderground.com/f...splay.php?f=45
-Ivan
Check it out; I'm sure you guys'll let me know exactly what you think.
http://www.motoringunderground.com/f...splay.php?f=45
-Ivan
#2
01-28-2006, 11:49 PM
#3
01-29-2006, 01:39 AM
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#4
01-29-2006, 05:38 AM
why would the torque peak occur at a lower rpm by changing intakes? at 3500rpm the airflow is way lower than would challenge any intake restrictions.
I rule out changes in intake path length as a tuning factor since you really have at least 6 feet overall anyway.
and I agree with the Dr.'s remarks on the shootout: they really needed to re-do the baseline run at the end, a pretty major testing flaw which unfortunately weakens the conclusions. This point had been emphasized by many tyros before the testing was run.
I also am amazed at how long it took to get this result out. Am I missing something here?
It would also be interesting to compare the HAI intake dyno review at this time...was it Hollis?
I rule out changes in intake path length as a tuning factor since you really have at least 6 feet overall anyway.
and I agree with the Dr.'s remarks on the shootout: they really needed to re-do the baseline run at the end, a pretty major testing flaw which unfortunately weakens the conclusions. This point had been emphasized by many tyros before the testing was run.
I also am amazed at how long it took to get this result out. Am I missing something here?
It would also be interesting to compare the HAI intake dyno review at this time...was it Hollis?
Last edited by jlm; 01-29-2006 at 05:46 AM.
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01-29-2006, 05:42 AM
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01-29-2006, 08:12 AM
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01-29-2006, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jlm
why would the torque peak occur at a lower rpm by changing intakes? at 3500rpm the airflow is way lower than would challenge any intake restrictions.
I rule out changes in intake path length as a tuning factor since you really have at least 6 feet overall anyway.
and I agree with the Dr.'s remarks on the shootout: they really needed to re-do the baseline run at the end, a pretty major testing flaw which unfortunately weakens the conclusions. This point had been emphasized by many tyros before the testing was run.
I also am amazed at how long it took to get this result out. Am I missing something here?
It would also be interesting to compare the HAI intake dyno review at this time...was it Hollis?
I rule out changes in intake path length as a tuning factor since you really have at least 6 feet overall anyway.
and I agree with the Dr.'s remarks on the shootout: they really needed to re-do the baseline run at the end, a pretty major testing flaw which unfortunately weakens the conclusions. This point had been emphasized by many tyros before the testing was run.
I also am amazed at how long it took to get this result out. Am I missing something here?
It would also be interesting to compare the HAI intake dyno review at this time...was it Hollis?
JLM, as the HAI was not tested on our test car, posting the HAI results would not be a good idea. Not only that, but the HAI was only tested with a single dyno pull (one pull stock, one pull HAI), making it even harder to get a number we can trust.
As far as doing another baseline pull goes, I see what you mean. However, when we designed the test procedure, we felt each intake system (and stock) should get the exact same test procedure to rule out the procedure as a variable. Had we re-tested the baseline, we would have been forced to re-test the others, as well.
Also, have you ever tried to uninstall an M7 AGS?
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#8
01-29-2006, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jlm
why would the torque peak occur at a lower rpm by changing intakes? at 3500rpm the airflow is way lower than would challenge any intake restrictions.
I rule out changes in intake path length as a tuning factor since you really have at least 6 feet overall anyway.
I rule out changes in intake path length as a tuning factor since you really have at least 6 feet overall anyway.
#9
01-29-2006, 09:12 AM
6th Gear
#10
01-29-2006, 10:20 AM
No you wouldn't
Originally Posted by iDiaz
As far as doing another baseline pull goes, I see what you mean. However, when we designed the test procedure, we felt each intake system (and stock) should get the exact same test procedure to rule out the procedure as a variable. Had we re-tested the baseline, we would have been forced to re-test the others, as well.
Matt
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01-29-2006, 10:22 AM
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01-29-2006, 10:27 AM
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01-29-2006, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
Baseline confirmation is just sound measurement principles. It is not a way to justify never-ending re-measurement of the test subjects.
Though such baseline confirmation methods would be ideal, I don't think anyone here, including the shops involved, are willing to dole out the money for another full day at the shop/dyno. Hm... I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here:
One of the reasons getting good numbers from the AGS IS that it's hard to return to stock, and also that the time to install in longer than most.
Matt
Matt
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01-29-2006, 10:54 AM
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#16
01-29-2006, 11:18 AM
Another data point sure would have been interesting: a K&N or other non-paper filter in the stock box. As I calculate, the panel in the stock `05 airbox has just about as much surface area as any cone filter used by the aftermarket intakes
My guess is that it would give at Least half the benefit of a Helix type at 20% of the cost.
The Alta results also make me wonder how the stock airbox would do if the accordian hose was replaced by a smooth intake hose?
My guess is that it would give at Least half the benefit of a Helix type at 20% of the cost.
The Alta results also make me wonder how the stock airbox would do if the accordian hose was replaced by a smooth intake hose?
#17
01-29-2006, 12:23 PM
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#18
01-29-2006, 12:41 PM
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#19
01-29-2006, 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by iDiaz
Check it out; I'm sure you guys'll let me know exactly what you think.
Just one clarification ...
The first intake for the MINI Cooper S was the one offered by Rogue Engineering and MINI Madness. Randy Webb soon posted instructions on drilling holes in the partition between the back of the airbox and cowl area, and then Alta and later Helix/RDR simply "eliminated" the partition in their intakes.
#20
01-29-2006, 01:24 PM
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Nice presentation, even though the results underscore some of the concerns about methodology expressed by others. Your dyno graphs are straight forward, but only show one run (presumably the best). For the detail oriented folks, would you include both runs for each intake? Again, many thanks for getting your results to the MINI community...
#21
01-29-2006, 01:43 PM
Former Vendor
Originally Posted by coopa25
This is by no means to start any kind of argument but why would anyone care to re-dyno for less than 10 hp? Especially to pay labor for finding out? 
Will has said it very nicely, but i would like to continue on his train of thought, because what you said is something that i think is very important when it comes to the decision to buy the intake.
Firstly, like he said, these were gains on a stock engine. With more engine work, the gains will be better. You will never see them putting out 45 hp or anything....but it will help.
Secondly. Strictly HP isn't the only reason to buy an intake. The biggest difference that i think a lot of people have noticed, is the noise/growl that an intake introduces into the car. We are all car enthusiasts, and many people love to hear the engine growl with a nice intake or exhaust. It makes the driving experience that much more fun for people who prefer those types of things. I know i love the sound my MC makes with it intake.
Another one to think about is throttle response. A well designed intake will help with throttle response, which is yet another "performance" enhancement. It will help when you wanna go out for a nice drive in the twisties.
Then there comes a point which may not be as valid for some people, but still a very good point. A lot of people just love their cars. Because of this, they enjoy making changes to it and modifying it. They want to make it sound the way they want, have their engine bays look the way they want, and just have the nice feeling that they did something to the car they love.
So an intake, which helps with the noise, and aesthetic department AS WELL as helping in the performance department, is often seen as a great starting point for modding.
With that being said, if you just want best HP/$ your best bet is the pulley. No one would dispute that. But the intake is a great addition if you want to continue modding your car, and want to make it growl.
Firstly, like he said, these were gains on a stock engine. With more engine work, the gains will be better. You will never see them putting out 45 hp or anything....but it will help.
Secondly. Strictly HP isn't the only reason to buy an intake. The biggest difference that i think a lot of people have noticed, is the noise/growl that an intake introduces into the car. We are all car enthusiasts, and many people love to hear the engine growl with a nice intake or exhaust. It makes the driving experience that much more fun for people who prefer those types of things. I know i love the sound my MC makes with it intake.
Another one to think about is throttle response. A well designed intake will help with throttle response, which is yet another "performance" enhancement. It will help when you wanna go out for a nice drive in the twisties.
Then there comes a point which may not be as valid for some people, but still a very good point. A lot of people just love their cars. Because of this, they enjoy making changes to it and modifying it. They want to make it sound the way they want, have their engine bays look the way they want, and just have the nice feeling that they did something to the car they love.
So an intake, which helps with the noise, and aesthetic department AS WELL as helping in the performance department, is often seen as a great starting point for modding.
With that being said, if you just want best HP/$ your best bet is the pulley. No one would dispute that. But the intake is a great addition if you want to continue modding your car, and want to make it growl.
#22
01-29-2006, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MINIAC
Nice write-up
Just one clarification ...
The first intake for the MINI Cooper S was the one offered by Rogue Engineering and MINI Madness. Randy Webb soon posted instructions on drilling holes in the partition between the back of the airbox and cowl area, and then Alta and later Helix/RDR simply "eliminated" the partition in their intakes.
Just one clarification ...
The first intake for the MINI Cooper S was the one offered by Rogue Engineering and MINI Madness. Randy Webb soon posted instructions on drilling holes in the partition between the back of the airbox and cowl area, and then Alta and later Helix/RDR simply "eliminated" the partition in their intakes.
Originally Posted by iDiaz
Helix Minisports (http://www.helix13.com, 877-Helix13) was one of the first MINI tuners to bring a cold air intake for the MCS to market.
#23
01-29-2006, 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by DarkMiniCooperS
Stop the flaming!
I think the real question is : Does an extra 2-3hp worth twice the price and installation time?
My personnal opinion is : NO.
I'm very satisfied with my Alta CAI and wouldn't trade it for anything else.
I think the real question is : Does an extra 2-3hp worth twice the price and installation time?
My personnal opinion is : NO.
I'm very satisfied with my Alta CAI and wouldn't trade it for anything else.
Installation time is relative to skill/aptitude. As a beta tester of the AGS, I've installed/removed/installed mine nearly half dozen times and it's not as painful as everyone makes it out to be...To me, it's theraputic excercise. It also freed up the airbox area for my LOUDA$$ Horn Then there's the new intake Sound...that sound unlike any other 
#24
01-29-2006, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MSFITOY
That's what it comes down to...personal opinions. Here's mine...YES Installation time is relative to skill/aptitude. As a beta tester of the AGS, I've installed/removed/installed mine nearly half dozen times and it's not as painful as everyone makes it out to be...To me, it's theraputic excercise. It also freed up the airbox area for my LOUDA$$ Horn Then there's the new intake Sound...that sound unlike any other
Installation time is relative to skill/aptitude. As a beta tester of the AGS, I've installed/removed/installed mine nearly half dozen times and it's not as painful as everyone makes it out to be...To me, it's theraputic excercise. It also freed up the airbox area for my LOUDA$$ Horn Then there's the new intake Sound...that sound unlike any other On a couple of occasions, my car also had trouble cranking up, as it would start up with the initial rev, then instead of dropping back down and settling into an idle, it would just die. Despite taking the utmost care to install it properly the first time, this refusal of my car to idle required us to remove the intake entirely and reinstall it to assure proper installation. After two more poor starts, it finally settled into an idle, and has been golden ever since.
Somehow, I really don't see that sort of situation happening with the Helix and the Alta, so again, I stand by my claim that the AGS is quite the bear when it comes to installation. Somehow, the hiss of the throttle body, the howl of the supercharger, and a swift kick in the pants in additional power and torque managed to quell my concerns, though.
#25
01-29-2006, 01:58 PM
Former Vendor
Originally Posted by MSFITOY
That's what it comes down to...personal opinions. Here's mine...YES Installation time is relative to skill/aptitude. As a beta tester of the AGS, I've installed/removed/installed mine nearly half dozen times and it's not as painful as everyone makes it out to be...To me, it's theraputic excercise. It also freed up the airbox area for my LOUDA$$ Horn Then there's the new intake Sound...that sound unlike any other
Installation time is relative to skill/aptitude. As a beta tester of the AGS, I've installed/removed/installed mine nearly half dozen times and it's not as painful as everyone makes it out to be...To me, it's theraputic excercise. It also freed up the airbox area for my LOUDA$$ Horn Then there's the new intake Sound...that sound unlike any other It's really about personal opinion, which is why its so great that there are so many good performers out there so that people can pick which one is right for them whether they want easy installation, loud noise, or cool looks.