Drivetrain Meatloaf and gravy
I have one with the M7 scoop for a little more air flow.
I wish I could tell you I noticed a difference, but I didn't.
I'm running this set up because I plan on installing a slightly smaller (15%) pulley than my current JCW pulley.
My hope is less ignition timing retardation when hammering it on a hot summer's day ; )
I wish I could tell you I noticed a difference, but I didn't.
I'm running this set up because I plan on installing a slightly smaller (15%) pulley than my current JCW pulley.
My hope is less ignition timing retardation when hammering it on a hot summer's day ; )
If you look on how the OEM's are made ,they are stamped together , it makes for a light IC, good flow and a very good heat transfer system. The bar and plate type, i.e. aftermarket are the opposite. . Too bad the way the OEM's are made cannot be reproduced aftermarket easily.
.......
This kind of brings me to something that I've been chewing on lately: do people think that there is a market for a thin core like the GP? One that is not a huge heat sink, has a quick recovery rate, has excellent efficiency, and doesn't cost a mint? We could improve on a couple of things (like Dr. O's comment on the extra rows being out of the natural flow path). I've bounced a couple of napkin sketches to our cooling guy (who vetoed my first one
) but he likes the direction. I'm interested to see if there's enough interest to continue the pursuit.
This kind of brings me to something that I've been chewing on lately: do people think that there is a market for a thin core like the GP? One that is not a huge heat sink, has a quick recovery rate, has excellent efficiency, and doesn't cost a mint? We could improve on a couple of things (like Dr. O's comment on the extra rows being out of the natural flow path). I've bounced a couple of napkin sketches to our cooling guy (who vetoed my first one
) but he likes the direction. I'm interested to see if there's enough interest to continue the pursuit.
I think a good IC that actually worked well would sell well
look how many DON'T work that sell well! Pressure drop in the IC is really a function of three main things: How the air gets into the core (really crappy in pretty much every aftermarket IC); cross sectional flow area (can be pretty good in a lot of aftermarket ICs) and turbulator density (all over the place in aftermarket ICs).
The reason the stock and GP are so nice for what they are is that they have the lowest thermal mass of any IC out there, so they respond really, really fast. They have great air entry exit geometries as well. Where they fall short is in cross sectional area. A stocker that was 50% thicker would be great for higher flow engines for sure. The extra rows of the GP really need an internal end tank baffle to really contribute to enhanced operation, but it's not cost effective for the ICs as sold by MINI... Bummer!
The debate on external scoops isn't closed either. If you go slow like for street driving or AutoX, then a bigger scoop will probably net benefits. If you go on high speed tracks then the win isn't so clear because of added drag. So yes you get lower IATs, but then the car is harder to move through the air.
I tested the M7 Extreme scoop, and it actually did lower IATs. But I don't think it helped Cd at all!
Don at DMH tried scoops and IC at a track and found that while some did get better IATs, his top speed and lap time didn't change.... A lot goes into the mix.
Back to ICs... Also what is a good IC depends on other stuff as well. If you have a water/meth injection system, an IC with lower pressure drop and lower thermal efficinecy would serve you well. If you don't have W/M injection, higher thermal efficiencies with higher pressure drops will help more!
And here's something totally counterintuitive... With really good gas what was a worse IC on pump gas may actually get more power! Has to do with knock supression and timing retard. That was a shocker when I logged it, but makes total sense in hind-sight.
Matt
The reason the stock and GP are so nice for what they are is that they have the lowest thermal mass of any IC out there, so they respond really, really fast. They have great air entry exit geometries as well. Where they fall short is in cross sectional area. A stocker that was 50% thicker would be great for higher flow engines for sure. The extra rows of the GP really need an internal end tank baffle to really contribute to enhanced operation, but it's not cost effective for the ICs as sold by MINI... Bummer!
The debate on external scoops isn't closed either. If you go slow like for street driving or AutoX, then a bigger scoop will probably net benefits. If you go on high speed tracks then the win isn't so clear because of added drag. So yes you get lower IATs, but then the car is harder to move through the air.
I tested the M7 Extreme scoop, and it actually did lower IATs. But I don't think it helped Cd at all!
Don at DMH tried scoops and IC at a track and found that while some did get better IATs, his top speed and lap time didn't change.... A lot goes into the mix.
Back to ICs... Also what is a good IC depends on other stuff as well. If you have a water/meth injection system, an IC with lower pressure drop and lower thermal efficinecy would serve you well. If you don't have W/M injection, higher thermal efficiencies with higher pressure drops will help more!
And here's something totally counterintuitive... With really good gas what was a worse IC on pump gas may actually get more power! Has to do with knock supression and timing retard. That was a shocker when I logged it, but makes total sense in hind-sight.
Matt
4th Gear
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 324
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From: As Far North in NY as You Can Get
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3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 160
Likes: 2
From: Clovis, CA
The reason the stock and GP are so nice for what they are is that they have the lowest thermal mass of any IC out there, so they respond really, really fast. They have great air entry exit geometries as well. Where they fall short is in cross sectional area. A stocker that was 50% thicker would be great for higher flow engines for sure.
The argument over which TMIC is best has been going on since the dawn of 2002! There is no TMIC that will work on track as a stand alone. Sure if you add meth then it will help but that's sticking a plaster over the problem.
If you track your car a lot then FMIC it, if you want a good on road TMIC then IMO GP for the win or a water to air system like the KMT/GRS chargecooler.
Here are some basic stats from Brands Hatch circuit during 8-10 flat out laps:
17%, BVH, JCW CAI, CAM, Manifold, Milltek
GRS FMIC
Ambient Temp: 8C
Max Inlet Temp: 31C
GRS TMIC:
Ambient Temp: 12C
Max Inlet Temp: 72C
15%, BVH, Dave.F CAI, CAM, Manifold, Milltek
GP TMIC
Ambient Temp: 6C
Max Inlet Temp: 58C
Sure you'll lose some boost going FMIC but you'll be making colder power so won't acutally lose that much whp/torque and your inlet temps will stay spot on.
For the road, IMO the GP I/C is one of the best out there and its damn cheap compared to most aftermarket ones, I got mine for £275 from a MINI dealer! A GRS is £400, GTT even more.
So it's a case of tailoring your set-up to the application and if you track it a lot then FMIC it IMO or turn your stock intercooler upright!
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
What ^^ said...
The argument over which TMIC is best has been going on since the dawn of 2002! There is no TMIC that will work on track as a stand alone. Sure if you add meth then it will help but that's sticking a plaster over the problem.
If you track your car a lot then FMIC it, if you want a good on road TMIC then IMO GP for the win or a water to air system like the KMT/GRS chargecooler.
Here are some basic stats from Brands Hatch circuit during 8-10 flat out laps:
17%, BVH, JCW CAI, CAM, Manifold, Milltek
GRS FMIC
Ambient Temp: 8C
Max Inlet Temp: 31C
GRS TMIC:
Ambient Temp: 12C
Max Inlet Temp: 72C
15%, BVH, Dave.F CAI, CAM, Manifold, Milltek
GP TMIC
Ambient Temp: 6C
Max Inlet Temp: 58C
Sure you'll lose some boost going FMIC but you'll be making colder power so won't acutally lose that much whp/torque and your inlet temps will stay spot on.
For the road, IMO the GP I/C is one of the best out there and its damn cheap compared to most aftermarket ones, I got mine for £275 from a MINI dealer! A GRS is £400, GTT even more.
So it's a case of tailoring your set-up to the application and if you track it a lot then FMIC it IMO or turn your stock intercooler upright!
The argument over which TMIC is best has been going on since the dawn of 2002! There is no TMIC that will work on track as a stand alone. Sure if you add meth then it will help but that's sticking a plaster over the problem.
If you track your car a lot then FMIC it, if you want a good on road TMIC then IMO GP for the win or a water to air system like the KMT/GRS chargecooler.
Here are some basic stats from Brands Hatch circuit during 8-10 flat out laps:
17%, BVH, JCW CAI, CAM, Manifold, Milltek
GRS FMIC
Ambient Temp: 8C
Max Inlet Temp: 31C
GRS TMIC:
Ambient Temp: 12C
Max Inlet Temp: 72C
15%, BVH, Dave.F CAI, CAM, Manifold, Milltek
GP TMIC
Ambient Temp: 6C
Max Inlet Temp: 58C
Sure you'll lose some boost going FMIC but you'll be making colder power so won't acutally lose that much whp/torque and your inlet temps will stay spot on.
For the road, IMO the GP I/C is one of the best out there and its damn cheap compared to most aftermarket ones, I got mine for £275 from a MINI dealer! A GRS is £400, GTT even more.
So it's a case of tailoring your set-up to the application and if you track it a lot then FMIC it IMO or turn your stock intercooler upright!
1st Gear
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: Flemington NJ
a little off topic here, but have you blown your s/c?
When it does go, I have a JCW SC in my closet....brand new 
Been runnin the hell out of it hoping it would blow so I could put the new one in, but it just keeps going, and going, and going......
Have you ?
Been runnin the hell out of it hoping it would blow so I could put the new one in, but it just keeps going, and going, and going......Have you ?
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
Just curious, do you think the JCW S/C will get you more power?
The coated SC's (black rotors OEM, a special ablative, rubbery coating from Eaton) were on JCW, and all 05+ cars....they are good for almost 5 HP over uncoated, due to cooler temps and higher efficient. Aftermarket coatings used in overhauls are usually more of a Teflon paint...and not as good.
I just know that the coating, when it does fail is not found till Sc removal...so if the coating flakes off due to a manufacturing defect, or perhaps running a cleaner into the wrong vacuum line in a motor, and having it go through the SC...it is not the end of the world. The gain, including all the newest castings and manufacturing improvements makes getting the 05+ supercharger worthwhile IMO. 5 HP for careful shopping...sounds like a good deal to me, especially if I had an older S with the un-coated rotors, and I got a good price on one. Heck...I have coated rotors, and I would not consider getting an un-coated SC. that would be a downgrade. That is why I just bought a coated SC, much like the orgional poster...found it cheap (compared to MINI). Besides, the MINI M-45 is no longer in production.....so attrition is taking place with non-reparable SC's....I'm not saying they are getting rare....but you already must special order a new SC from the warehouse in Germany if you want new instead of overhauled.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,862
Likes: 3
From: Fresno Ca.
The coated SC's (black rotors OEM, a special ablative, rubbery coating from Eaton) were on JCW, and all 05+ cars....they are good for almost 5 HP over uncoated, due to cooler temps and higher efficient. Aftermarket coatings used in overhauls are usually more of a Teflon paint...and not as good.