X-Brace and 22mm Rear Sway....what to expect
 

My TSW X-Brace from WayMotorWorks and 22mm Solid Rear Sway are on their way. I am going to install them this weekend. I have been reading all sorts of great stuff about each. I am halfway tempted to install one, then take it for a drive, then install the other and take it for a drive just so I can try and measure the different with my butt dyno.

What kind of results should I expect from installing both?
I am super excited!!! :grin:

I have a 22mm sway bar. I like it. It helps to keep the torque steer down and stiffens up the rear end. I don't have the x-brace, but I installed H&R RSS track Coil-overs and polly bushings and control arms so my car is pretty stiff. Fits my tastes, but is maybe a little too rigid for some of the justa folks...

I'd say the Justa folks like it stiff, we can't rely on forced induction to get our kicks ;)

:thumbsup:

I suggest adding the sway bar first because it will make the biggest difference. Install it on the softest setting. Take it for a drive. It will greatly reduce the understeer.

Then install the X-Brace. It will make a slight diffence. You should fell the front suspension a little more (you will feel more connected). The front will feel a little firmer. Not a big handling difference.

Once you get use to the soft setting you can increase to the middle setting and give it a try in a safe area. The larger rear bar can induce too much oversteer especially if you let off the gas in a turn.

Next suspension upgrade should be front camber plates (fixed or adjustable).

I am a little nervous now. I read that the 22mm rear sway was the way to go. The 19mm was only a minimal increase over the 22mm bar and the greatest difference would be experienced with a 22mm bar. But now I am afraid the rear end of my car is going to go flying out during a turn. I guess I'm confused. :confused:

Well...I'd go with a 19 solid or 22 hollow. The 22 stiff would be a bit too much for me on the track, but it's an individual preference. I'd definitely start out on the softest setting on the 22. Normal driving, or even spirited driving, really isn't going to get you that much oversteer, and a 22 stiff will be fine. On the track, that might be a different story.

If you're not planning on hitting the track, you'll be fine with the 22 solid--if you are planning on tracking, just be careful with it, recognize that you can lose the rear end on a sharp high speed turn.

Thanks for the input. I definitely don't plan to track my car. I'm strictly a spirited street driver.

just curious, why is this the case?

It will create a car with a higher tendency to oversteer vs the OEM understeer or even a neutral car that the 19mm would be. With both installed you are looking at a car with a tendency to oversteer. Add in any neg. camber adjustments and it will only shift more to oversteer.

This is going to show up at the apex of the corners as this is where the lateral G's are greatest and it tests the composure of the car. If you add any brake or sudden off throttle to this it will cause the rear of the car to lose traction.

It's the whole suspension dynamic. You can understeer, or oversteer (unless you're lucky enough to be neutral in any particular instance.) A stiffer rear reduces understeer (the MINI, an most all cars, come from the factory with understeer because it's safer.) The stiffer end loses traction more quickly, because less weight is transferred to the outside wheel. While this tends to make driving more fun (because you're not plowing) it also makes it more dangerous, as if you experience lift throttle oversteer (throttle off, weight transfers to the front, unloading the rear, thus giving it less traction) your ass-end can end up leading the front. :eek2:
Edit: Cautionary tale: Was at Laguna Seca a few years ago, and one participant had just installed a 22mm, on the middle hole. Went into 5/6 hot, lifted, spun, and kissed the inside wall. :cry: If you're not familiar with vehicle dynamics, be VERY cautious when making any changes, and be VERY careful after you've made them. If you get a 22, start on the softest (end) hole. After you're used to how that feels, THEN move to stiffer positions.

What they said. With my 19mm solid bar, -2.4 camber up front and -1.6 in the rears, I'm going back to the softest setting this year on my sway bar--for my driving, I think this will be just about right. I was getting just a smidgeon too much oversteer on full stiff, if I did anything with the throttle. One thing about sway bars--it seems it sometimes turns into a pissing contest who can run the stiffest bar on the stiffest setting; don't fall into that trap. More isn't always better.

One thing--if you're not tracking the car, I doubt you'll notice the x-brace doing much, if anything; if you've already bought it, go ahead and try it out, if not, maybe consider camber plates up front, you'll notice it more. The x-brace comes into play more when you're really pushing the car on the track; you're probably not going to be able (or even want) to push it to the point on the street where you're really going to notice it much. The MINI is pretty stiff to begin with. You'll see a bunch of people talking about how various x-braces made unbelievably huge differences (there is one in particular out there that does virtually nothing to stiffen the car, yet apparently has a wonderful placebo effect), but most of that is B.S. That being said, the brace you bought is the correct one.

On the other hand, you'll definitely notice the sway bar.

:thumbsup:

:lol::lol::lol:

I think it's a great idea to install them one at a time. I suggest installing the X brace first, go for a drive and a highway that has grooved lanes. Then install the swaybar. They are two different feelings, but the X brace is so easy to install you could actually uninstall it before doing the swaybar to see the difference.

Thanks Way. I'll probably do that.

Sorry to worry you, do not be worried. I had a 25mm hollow (equivalent to 23 solid) on my 03 MCS with H&R springs and no front camber plates. I used it on the softest setting and it was great on the street and OK on the track.
However, once I added front camber plates and dailed in -2.2 front camber the 25mm holoow bar was too much. Any throttle lift in a turn created a little too much oversteer. Might be OK for Auto-X but too much oversteer for higher speeds.

So without camber plates and the associated increased negative camber you will be fine with a 22mm bar on the softest setting. Once you drive it for awhile on the softest and you still think you need a little more oversteer then adjust to a litte stiffer and try it. Just do some throttle lifts during a turn in a safe area (big parking lot0 to see if it oversteers too much for you.

I feel that the MINI really needs better traction in the front rather than making the rear looser with a large rear bar. Thus I always suggest to people that they add front camber plates (fixed or adjustable) to increase the negative camber in the front and thus increase the traction when turning. Then add a slightly larger than stock rear bar such as a 19 or 20mm bar.

I had the bigger bar first on my 03 MCS then added camber plate but when I
got my 06 MCS I did camber plates first then added a rear bar. I think camber plates first then rear bar is the better way to go.

well I might just end up swapping the bar out for a 19mm then.

So if I just do spirited daily driving along with occasional drives on twisty mountain roads, is the 22mm too much? I don't want to go flying off the mountain side.

IMHO, you'll be fine on the softest setting for a street driven car. I wouldn't sweat it; you're not (probably) not trailbraking, or inducing too much oversteer in the way of lift throttle oversteer. As long as you don't do something crazy, like jam on the brakes with the front wheels turned, or take a sharp turn at high speed and suddenly lift off the throttle, you won't get into trouble, if you have good tires. Spirited, controlled driving will be just fine, the car will rotate better, go have fun!

It's a great idea to do one mod at a time, see what each is doing.

One thing to remember: everyone drives differently; there's more than one way to skin a cat. I personally don't like a ton of oversteer--I'm fastest if the car is neutral or has just a little bit of oversteer, just enough to rotate the rear subtley without too much sliding. There are others who are oversteer whores; they love swinging the rear end out, and do a great job of controlling it, and are very fast doing it. It's a driving style thing.

True! Thanks, that makes sense. I'll install it on the softest setting and go from there. I will definitely take it easy though in the beginning until I learn the feel.

I don't think it's too much. I have a 22mm on the softest setting, and it feels good. Not at all tail happy. Note that I don't have camber plates up front.

Werd!:cool:

I agree with the rear end sway bar, would yall say the front sway bar is needed?

Thanks Eric. I will just install it and go from there. If I don't like the way it feels then I will replace it or do something about. Until then I wont fret over it. :thumbsup:

No.......unless you are going with a larger rear sway and want to get back a bit more understeer. Otherwise you are only getting back to mild understeer.

Do you think with the addition of the X-Brace, is it necessary to have the M7 RCB or does that help to stiffen the rear chassis area?

I'm going to try my best to be polite here, and bite my tongue, and try not to mention anything about placebo effects, like earlier. Oops, I did it again...

Without going into too much detail, the answer is no. The brace you have is all you need. M7 makes some good, functional parts. The RCB just doesn't happen to be one of them.

See all those triangles in the TSW piece? Engineers love triangles. They have dreams about triangles that are so intense, they're afraid to speak about them. One engineer even married a particularly attractive triangle. Triangles are good. Rectangles are not so good Engineers do not dream about rectangles. Even the word "rectangle" is a bit suspect; it's disturbingly similar to the word "rectum".

I'd like to conclude this dissertation by pointing out that things that attach to the chasis are good. Things that don't are not so good.

Good to know. Thanks! I will go ahead and uninstall it then. It gets in the way too much for me.

Best post EVER ! ! !

:thumbsup:

I swear the RCB made it so the rear end didn't creek or make noises similar to that when leaving parking lots. Prior to installing the RCB, when I pulled out of parking lots or something like that at an angle the rear end would creek. Once I installed the RCB it no longer does that. I will test it again tomorrow when I take it off.

It's possible that the M7 brace may, by the way it attaches, be taking out some of the interior creaks and rattles--but don't confuse this with making the car noticeably stiffer from a performance standpoint. In fact, if that brace does make the interior quieter, someone has finally found a use for it, and should be congratulated!

Seriously though, I have a 4 point rollbar in my car, which does much more for rigidity than the M7 RCB. Do I notice it driving around town? No. It doesn't come into play there. Do I notice it on the track? Yes. I the MINI is stiff, but I didn't realize how much the chassis flexed (on the track) until I got the rollbar in. I'll add the TSW x-brace once I have my new exhaust on to finish it off. Interestingly, the tighter my car gets, the noisier it gets...Maybe I need the M7 rear chassis silencer?:lol:

Lol!

To make the car faster on a track you need to be able to rotate the car faster through the corner. Stiffer rear sway allows you to that but you have to become a better drive and be able to catch the car as it rotates. As said earlier you can not lift off the throttle in the corner you need to keep the right foot time at times when you brain is screeming lift. Thats the fun part.
You end up modualting the throttle to more or less drift the rear end of the car through the corner. I spent 2 days with Phil Wicks in his race car and you learn a lot fast. Slicks in the wet makes you learn fast. If you are two stiff for your driving ability you will find out really fast as you will be losing it often and need to soften it back up as you can not catch the car in the corners and will lose the back end. Your times willbe slower as you will be fighting the car to try and keep it straight. Teh stiffer you are the faster the car will rotate and is way different than driving on the street. The part I found interesting is the car will rotate so fast you can be looking out of the windshield at the next corner. If you do you will miss the next corner completely and never catch up tot he rotation. You actually have to look out of the side windows to see the next corner and to get lined up propoerly.
Something you never see unless you are on a track in a prepared race car.
It the hands of someone not experienced it can be very dangerous. Ie. You set the car up stiff and have no problems because you know the set up. I friend takes it for a spin and has no clue about the set up is going to be in trouble. He is going to come into a corner hot and lift off the throttle and rear end will be looking to pass him. If othesr ever drive your car make sure you warn them. My current JCW is stock and can use a stiffer rear bar but I have to factor in how close to the edge do I want to run this car. I feel a lot safer running on the edge in a full prepped face car as you have a full roll cage, fire supression ect. It depends how much of a safty factor you desire.
Good post!

I do plan to take a professional driving course at some point. I don't track my car however that is something I would like to do at some point as well, more than likely once I finish school in 4 years. My current and planned mods are to make my car sportier, increasing power and handling for the most part. I am a spirited driver, but not 100% of the time. My MINI is my daily driver although I don't drive my car daily, as I take public and university provided transportation to/from campus. Therefore I drive my car about 25 miles a week on average only to and from the coffee shop for studying and miscellaneous errands around town.

The great advice I have received within this thread means I will take it easy over the next few weeks until I slowly learn the new driving dynamics of my car. Additionally I want to look into signing up for a professional driving course sometime over the summer so I can better understand the dynamics of the car and possible solutions to situations that I may find myself which currently I don't fully understand how or why they may occur.

Phil Wicks driving school is where I went. I spent 2 days with Phil in his race car. If he has an event out west this year you can bring yor own car and it is fairly chheap. Like 300 or 400 for the day. High performance handling and driving school. Mine was more racig focused as I rented his race car and Phil for that matter. 2 days and car was around $1600. We burned up $1200 worth of just racing slicks!

I definitely can't afford to rent a race car and its professional driver. :eek:

Not many of us can good sir...

WIth that being said, I usually tag a long with my buddies who part of the more "performance oriented" car clubs such as BMW CCA or Porsche CCS, both of which usually do HPDE (High Performance Driving Events) which put you and your car in the hot seat for time attack laps and whatnot. These are usually timed events against one another, no real danger of hitting someone else, just wrecking yourself.

Every time I show up to one, there are always semi-professional and professional race drivers who are there to support the others, give tips, and even offer to ride along not for extra cash, but to make sure that we are having fun, being safe, and learning something new about our rides.

I have yet to meet the BMW or Porsche guy who won't ride along in a Mini to show me how I can improve. Oh, and these events are BYOT (Bring Your Own Tires) but if you can have a decent time without murdering your tires (haha) these usually cost about $100 to join in for the day. Not a bad way to spend a Saturday at the track:grin:

The BMWCCA is a fantastic way to start, to get your feet wet. Then, when time and money allows, Phil Wicks is an even better program.

But there is something even more affordable, that can teach you a ton in a short period of time...Autocross! Great place to get your feet wet, you'll learn a TON at relatively slower speeds, where the only thing you'll hit is a plastic cone. I've seen autocross functions for as cheap as 25 bucks a day, many times with free instructors available.

It'll make you that much more comfortable when you do hit the track. In many ways, autocross is actually more difficult than the track. And this comes from someone who really hates autocross (I'm too inpatient for it). But from an affordability standpoint, and how much you can learn, especially when you're just starting out, it's pretty tough to knock it.

+1:thumbsup:

Cool. Thanks for the advise everyone. BMWCCA San Diego Chapter has monthly auto-x at Qualcomm Stadium. Here is some information. I am going to sign up for the Auto-X coming up in April.

I installed the X-Brace and the rear sway bar. The rear end feels more stiff for sure. I haven't had a chance to drive it really hard but it feels stable at cruising speed on the freeway. :thumbsup: