X-Brace and 22mm Rear Sway....what to expect
 

My TSW X-Brace from WayMotorWorks and 22mm Solid Rear Sway are on their way. I am going to install them this weekend. I have been reading all sorts of great stuff about each. I am halfway tempted to install one, then take it for a drive, then install the other and take it for a drive just so I can try and measure the different with my butt dyno.

What kind of results should I expect from installing both?
I am super excited!!! :grin:

I have a 22mm sway bar. I like it. It helps to keep the torque steer down and stiffens up the rear end. I don't have the x-brace, but I installed H&R RSS track Coil-overs and polly bushings and control arms so my car is pretty stiff. Fits my tastes, but is maybe a little too rigid for some of the justa folks...

I'd say the Justa folks like it stiff, we can't rely on forced induction to get our kicks ;)

:thumbsup:

I suggest adding the sway bar first because it will make the biggest difference. Install it on the softest setting. Take it for a drive. It will greatly reduce the understeer.

Then install the X-Brace. It will make a slight diffence. You should fell the front suspension a little more (you will feel more connected). The front will feel a little firmer. Not a big handling difference.

Once you get use to the soft setting you can increase to the middle setting and give it a try in a safe area. The larger rear bar can induce too much oversteer especially if you let off the gas in a turn.

Next suspension upgrade should be front camber plates (fixed or adjustable).

I am a little nervous now. I read that the 22mm rear sway was the way to go. The 19mm was only a minimal increase over the 22mm bar and the greatest difference would be experienced with a 22mm bar. But now I am afraid the rear end of my car is going to go flying out during a turn. I guess I'm confused. :confused:

Well...I'd go with a 19 solid or 22 hollow. The 22 stiff would be a bit too much for me on the track, but it's an individual preference. I'd definitely start out on the softest setting on the 22. Normal driving, or even spirited driving, really isn't going to get you that much oversteer, and a 22 stiff will be fine. On the track, that might be a different story.

If you're not planning on hitting the track, you'll be fine with the 22 solid--if you are planning on tracking, just be careful with it, recognize that you can lose the rear end on a sharp high speed turn.

Thanks for the input. I definitely don't plan to track my car. I'm strictly a spirited street driver.

just curious, why is this the case?

It will create a car with a higher tendency to oversteer vs the OEM understeer or even a neutral car that the 19mm would be. With both installed you are looking at a car with a tendency to oversteer. Add in any neg. camber adjustments and it will only shift more to oversteer.

This is going to show up at the apex of the corners as this is where the lateral G's are greatest and it tests the composure of the car. If you add any brake or sudden off throttle to this it will cause the rear of the car to lose traction.

It's the whole suspension dynamic. You can understeer, or oversteer (unless you're lucky enough to be neutral in any particular instance.) A stiffer rear reduces understeer (the MINI, an most all cars, come from the factory with understeer because it's safer.) The stiffer end loses traction more quickly, because less weight is transferred to the outside wheel. While this tends to make driving more fun (because you're not plowing) it also makes it more dangerous, as if you experience lift throttle oversteer (throttle off, weight transfers to the front, unloading the rear, thus giving it less traction) your ass-end can end up leading the front. :eek2:
Edit: Cautionary tale: Was at Laguna Seca a few years ago, and one participant had just installed a 22mm, on the middle hole. Went into 5/6 hot, lifted, spun, and kissed the inside wall. :cry: If you're not familiar with vehicle dynamics, be VERY cautious when making any changes, and be VERY careful after you've made them. If you get a 22, start on the softest (end) hole. After you're used to how that feels, THEN move to stiffer positions.

What they said. With my 19mm solid bar, -2.4 camber up front and -1.6 in the rears, I'm going back to the softest setting this year on my sway bar--for my driving, I think this will be just about right. I was getting just a smidgeon too much oversteer on full stiff, if I did anything with the throttle. One thing about sway bars--it seems it sometimes turns into a pissing contest who can run the stiffest bar on the stiffest setting; don't fall into that trap. More isn't always better.

One thing--if you're not tracking the car, I doubt you'll notice the x-brace doing much, if anything; if you've already bought it, go ahead and try it out, if not, maybe consider camber plates up front, you'll notice it more. The x-brace comes into play more when you're really pushing the car on the track; you're probably not going to be able (or even want) to push it to the point on the street where you're really going to notice it much. The MINI is pretty stiff to begin with. You'll see a bunch of people talking about how various x-braces made unbelievably huge differences (there is one in particular out there that does virtually nothing to stiffen the car, yet apparently has a wonderful placebo effect), but most of that is B.S. That being said, the brace you bought is the correct one.

On the other hand, you'll definitely notice the sway bar.

:thumbsup:

:lol::lol::lol:

I think it's a great idea to install them one at a time. I suggest installing the X brace first, go for a drive and a highway that has grooved lanes. Then install the swaybar. They are two different feelings, but the X brace is so easy to install you could actually uninstall it before doing the swaybar to see the difference.

Thanks Way. I'll probably do that.

Sorry to worry you, do not be worried. I had a 25mm hollow (equivalent to 23 solid) on my 03 MCS with H&R springs and no front camber plates. I used it on the softest setting and it was great on the street and OK on the track.
However, once I added front camber plates and dailed in -2.2 front camber the 25mm holoow bar was too much. Any throttle lift in a turn created a little too much oversteer. Might be OK for Auto-X but too much oversteer for higher speeds.

So without camber plates and the associated increased negative camber you will be fine with a 22mm bar on the softest setting. Once you drive it for awhile on the softest and you still think you need a little more oversteer then adjust to a litte stiffer and try it. Just do some throttle lifts during a turn in a safe area (big parking lot0 to see if it oversteers too much for you.

I feel that the MINI really needs better traction in the front rather than making the rear looser with a large rear bar. Thus I always suggest to people that they add front camber plates (fixed or adjustable) to increase the negative camber in the front and thus increase the traction when turning. Then add a slightly larger than stock rear bar such as a 19 or 20mm bar.

I had the bigger bar first on my 03 MCS then added camber plate but when I
got my 06 MCS I did camber plates first then added a rear bar. I think camber plates first then rear bar is the better way to go.

well I might just end up swapping the bar out for a 19mm then.

So if I just do spirited daily driving along with occasional drives on twisty mountain roads, is the 22mm too much? I don't want to go flying off the mountain side.

IMHO, you'll be fine on the softest setting for a street driven car. I wouldn't sweat it; you're not (probably) not trailbraking, or inducing too much oversteer in the way of lift throttle oversteer. As long as you don't do something crazy, like jam on the brakes with the front wheels turned, or take a sharp turn at high speed and suddenly lift off the throttle, you won't get into trouble, if you have good tires. Spirited, controlled driving will be just fine, the car will rotate better, go have fun!

It's a great idea to do one mod at a time, see what each is doing.

One thing to remember: everyone drives differently; there's more than one way to skin a cat. I personally don't like a ton of oversteer--I'm fastest if the car is neutral or has just a little bit of oversteer, just enough to rotate the rear subtley without too much sliding. There are others who are oversteer whores; they love swinging the rear end out, and do a great job of controlling it, and are very fast doing it. It's a driving style thing.

True! Thanks, that makes sense. I'll install it on the softest setting and go from there. I will definitely take it easy though in the beginning until I learn the feel.

I don't think it's too much. I have a 22mm on the softest setting, and it feels good. Not at all tail happy. Note that I don't have camber plates up front.

Werd!:cool:

I agree with the rear end sway bar, would yall say the front sway bar is needed?

Thanks Eric. I will just install it and go from there. If I don't like the way it feels then I will replace it or do something about. Until then I wont fret over it. :thumbsup:

No.......unless you are going with a larger rear sway and want to get back a bit more understeer. Otherwise you are only getting back to mild understeer.