If you want to know if DSC is a good idea... Let's look at some data!
 

There are a lot of questions about DSC effectiveness and cost. Most threads come down to a few points....

• I've driven cars for a long time without it and don't need it.
• I'm a good driver and can get myself out of trouble.
• It's such a pain at launch that I turn it off all the time.
• It's like insurance, you don't want to have to depend on it, but if you need it you'll be happy it's there!
• In this case (fill in details here) it saved my but!

While all of these opinions have some merit (some much less than others) I decided to look at the statistics to see what's up with these systems.....

So......
I found this site that has a nice review of recent studies on the effectiveness of these types of systems. Here are some highlights from a Insurance Instatute for Highway Safety study from 2006....

"ESC reduces the risk of fatal multiple-vehicle crashes by 32 percent amd the risk of all single-vehicle crashes by more than 40 percent — fatal ones by 56 percent.

While both cars and SUVs benefit from ESC, the reduction in the risk of single-vehicle crashes was significantly greater for SUVs — 49 percent versus 33 percent for cars. The reduction in fatal single-vehicle crashes wasn't significantly different for SUVs (59 percent) than for cars (53 percent). ESC reduces the risk of fatal single-vehicle rollovers of SUVs by 80 percent, 77 percent for cars. ESC was found to reduce the risk of all kinds of fatal crashes by 43 percent. Losses under collision coverage are about 15 percent lower for vehicles with ESC than for predecessor models without it. However, ESC doesn't have much effect on property damage liability claims or the frequency of injury claims. These findings track police-reported crashes, which show little effect of ESC on the risk of low-severity multiple-vehicle crashes. "

While this is just one of the studies cited, some of the numbers (I added the bolding) are just shocking! If you read these studies, and still decide that you don't think these systems are worth something... Well then, I guess statistally the contributions to the gene pool of those that think that way will be slightly reduced.....:wink:

For the Mini, the only real complaint about it is the amount of power that it takes out when you hammer the gas from a start (For whatever reason). I too have had the dreaded "Oh *****!" moment when that happend. But now I'm running an ECU tune (MTH) that reduces the severity of the traction control, and it's on all the time, except when I'm on a dry track I know.

Hope this helps some with the decisions on if to get it, and when to use it.

Matt

Wow, those are some numbers!

Accidents are like the Spanish Inquisition, nobody expects them and things can just come up that no amount of carefullness or skill alone can compensate for. Good traction control (and DSC is more advanced then the standard ASC) is a tool that can make all the difference in retaining control of the vehicle - the benefits of having it onboard as a tool to use as you wish clearly outweighs the drawbacks.

Now can someone tell me why all the shootings and police chases around here seem to involve SUVs? ;)

I was surprise too!
 

FWIW, some of the other studies don't show as high a benefit, but the low end seemed to be about a 10-15% reduction in accidents, and more than that for fatalities. The mean seemed to be somewhere around a 35% reduction for cars, and over 50% for SUVs......

Matt

shouldn't that be enough right there to justify getting itand leaving it turned on?:nod::nod:

Yep...
 

but ever since I've been a member of NAM, and for the while I lurked before joining, I've seen basically the same thread happen over and over. DSC, is it worth it? that has had basically the same responses. Since I'm a data driven guy, I thought I'd look at some studies....

I just hope that those that think it's bad or a waste of money read the references. At least then they'll have a better idea of what the $500 is getting them, and be able to better understand the decision that they are making....

Matt

I guess that means you are trying to do them a DSC-service :)

Just being my normal
 

half-cranky half-helpfull self!

Matt

ps, I always love a good pun! Let me know when you come up with one!:wink:

Well I have ASC not DSC, and its almost always off.

According to that study the Traction control is most effective in single veichle rollovers. MINI is rated least likely to roll over. As I've had it damn near cause a single vehicle accident when it decided to cut half my power and take the car ina different direction than the sterrign wheel it is and shal remain most undoubtebly off every time I start the car (no auto off yet) as in practice it has proved more dangerous than anything else.

I'd be extremely interested in seeing the number in systems with experianced track drivers behind the wheel vs. the numbers witht he common darwin behind the wheel.

Data is important but you need to take a look at the lab and how it applies to your own driving as well.

Doooooooh..... I guess I need De-traction control :razz: :)

I'm a fledgling track rat...
 

and it's always on. I really found only one area where the programming in the Mini DSC/ASC/XYZ is lacking. And that's power reduction from a standing start. On the track, the DSC is one of the "slower" systems out there (read about the multi level stuff in the M5 or the Corvette) so it's off on dry tracks that I know. If I don't know the track, or if it's wet, it stays on.

But your post is pretty much the bullet #1-3 attitude. And while that's all fine and good, there is no way that a human can do the a) reaction time or b) the single wheel braking that the systems are capable of to avoid problems. And this is true no matter the amount of driver training or track and race experience.

FWIW, I also find that the more track experience people have (at least in my peer group), the more that they leave the safe driving on the street, and the fast driving on the track. This means more safetly features enabled, and less of a lead foot. They also have the experience nessiscary to propery engange the clutch without spinning so as to accelerate fast and not brake loose. But this is very unscientific, at best....

Take a look at the british study that compared accident and fatality rates in the same model car, with and without DSC. The point of this study is that no matter what car you drive, it's less likely to roll or be involved in a fatal accident.

Matt

It's always a battle between the driver's ability to take in the surroundings that the computer can't (i.e. other vehicles, upcoming road conditions, etc) and the computers ability to never panic.

Panic and inattentiveness is usually what causes accidents.

Some people may not like DSC because it may "cut power" or "take away control" but when it comes down to it, if you keep it off, chances are you'll have that one time when having it on would have saved you a lot of pain.

Yep and people have died because they are wearing their seat belts.

I was thinking something along those lines as well. If I had to guess, I would guess that the average NAM poster is significantly above the average when it comes to driving skill, and thus benefits less from the DSC than the average driver. I am no track master, but I must say that the DSC has never activated in my car in any situation other than the dreaded traffic turn/merge.

I agree with more safe and tame driving on the street it is the way I am. But that same training means when carp hits the fan you can control the car, and I prefer it to do what I tell it to.

However my EXPERIENCE with the system is it cutting power needlessly to the wheels. When it does it to both front s equally I slow down or stay sitting, when it applies the brakes to a RF needlessly and with no warning the car takes a hard right nose dive and that light is flashing, I shut the system off and it stays that way, if the car is going to do and abrupt 180 degree turn, its going to be when I tell it to not when it feels like it.

I agree with the Dr. -- DSC is very helpfull 99% of the time for 99% of the MINI drivers out there.

I leave my DSC on all the time, UNLESS I am doing some full throttle acceleration stuff or track day, etc....

I do turn OFF the DSC when I am merging into traffic from a standing start - if I know I am going to need lots of throttle to make a hole.:nod:

BUT, unless you are a professional driver I think the DSC has more pro's than con's for everyday driving.

Just my .02's

:sly:

Uh, no. I would say that there is a less than 50% chance that one would get into an accident that would have been avoided by DSC. Thus, "chances are" you will be just fine with DSC off. Just because it reduces the chance of an accident, doesn't mean that you will likely have an accident without it.

So, is this toung in cheek BS....
 

or do you really belive that seat belts have increased fatality rates?

Sometimes I wonder if statistics is even tought anymore....:sad:

Matt

Seatbelts have only been satisitically proven to be 50% effective (there is a difference), and many still refuse to wear them. Airbags have been know to go off on their own in MINIs with no cause ither than a system malfunction, after that punch in the nose I agree witht he owner who installs a proper harness racing seat and 6 point cage.

You get a bloody, fishy mess?

(sorry... that was completely off topic... but i giggled at the typo)

I'm walking from now on anybody want a Mini? LOL

No I don't.

I don't think people are taking unexpected things into account; lets say a deer/person/red light runner jumps out in front of you - skill and attentiveness will help you in reacting, however what you cannot control is if you lose traction and thus the ability to control the car due to black ice, leaves, water, etc. The sophistication of the DSC and its ability to brake individual wheels (DSC feature not ASC) can make all the difference in retaining control or losing it.

Fwiw I'll break out my trusty ol' DSC link:

http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/dsc.htm

And I agree, it seems that most people who do race/instruct on the track know how to be smooth enough with the thottle not to engage the traction control under heavy acceleration and generally have it on. After all, the world is not a closed course..

:lol: :lol: Hey I can get killed driving to/from work any day, if its my time then its my time. But in the meantime I'm not going to be dumb enough to put myself in a driving situation that I need DSC, esp. around other cars, and when I'm on my own on a public roadway there is no need for sucha system because there is no excuse for driving at a level beyond my skills in that enviroment. And my bigger fear is DSC getting the same treatment as the early days of cruise control when people thought that the car would steer for them, stick a computer in there to do the work for you instead of making yourself a better driver, its going to lead to complacency and eventually death.

I've had the DSC save me. Once, in a 2001 BMW 325Ci where I over-cooked a turn onto an on ramp. I have Audi's version in our A3, and I've felt it kick in only when I've tried to goad it into action. Otherwise, I've never felt it kick in. I probably won't have it on my MINI. I would not have an SUV without it, however. Then again, I wouldn't have an SUV.

My biggest fear is that stability control will turn into a negative, as it gives people the mindset that the car will correct for stupid driver inputs. Kinda like some people drive 4wd vehicles way too fast in slick conditions. This is a conundrum, where cars get safer, so people feel invincible, and still have accidents. It won't stop until cars are completely, 100% accident proof. Then look out if you have a classic car!

Reminds me of a song......

Forgive me, that was an overly generalized statement.

I didn't mean that having the DSC off would increase you chances of an accident.

From my experience I've always known when I needed the DSC off.
-Taking off from a stoplight
-Merging
-Pulling the quick turn

When I know these situations have presented themselves, it is quite easy to move my finger from the shifter, tap the switch, pull the move, and tap the switch again.

What I can't predict is when I will need the DSC ON! If a potential accident is about to involve me, I can't think "uh oh, I bet I'll need the DSC on" and quick flip it on for it to assist me in avoiding trouble. There just isn't enough time.

Since I can predict when I need it OFF, but can't predict its necessity to be ON... it's best just to leave it ON all the time, and momentarily flip it off when I KNOW I need to be without it.