on a similar note, i just rotated the tires on my dad's CMS All4 @ 5,000 miles (during an oil/filter change)

the lug bolts are supposed to be torqued to 103.5 ft/lb

i had to use a 1/2 drive 30 inch breaker bar and pull up with both hands to get the lug bolts out!

the dealer put these wheels on when my dad bought the car, it had silver wheels and he wanted black wheels, so they swapped with another car on the lot

i am guessing they used an impacter not a torque wrench ... bastards

i was angry enough that i went to the dealer and bitched at the SA

with the OEM lug wrench i would never have gotten the wheels off

as to the oil drain, the CMS has a drain plug that requires an 8mm allen and uses a 1 use copper crush gasket ...

i have changed my CMS All4 oil twice and dad's once, no problems at all getting the drain plug out

scott

 

They must overtorque them on install, cause I never had that problem with my R53, and I changed the oil in it a bunch of times.....a little oil on the threads and under the plastic gasket and it comes right out using a craftsman wrench just like in the earlier post....easy peasy. It also never leaked....

I also never have the problem in my R55, even tho it's a different setup - I think proper torque is the answer.

this is not a unique situation to MINI tho, I had to take a zip gun to a plug in a Toyota truck the other day, it was a similar sized plug and it was totally round.

One thing's for sure, if you can't get it out with a proper sized wrench or socket, do not try chanel locks, vice grips or a big crescent wrench, you'll just make it worse.You might be able to get it with a big pipe wrench......but that would be a tool of last resort for me.

 

Glad I could help ....

 

You're discussing GEN2 issues in a GEN1 forum.

The GEN2 uses a totally different engine then the GEN1 ... yes the bung is an allen fitting on the bottom of the pan with a copper seal .... not the same as a GEN1

WRT the lug torque ... yep, I have trouble getting them off my 07 with my impact gun when they are torqued to the 'recommended' . I doubt my gun could put them ON that tight! I use a beam torq' to put 'em on and my (decent air gun) is at it's limit to break 'em loose. I usually have to get a breaker bar out for 1 of every 4.

One hint ... work around the wheel .... get a quarter turn on one, then move to another. At these pressures if you pull one lug, you transfer all the existing load to the remaining ones. In big machinery we torq' to one level all the way around .... then start over and torq' to the next level, until the target is reached (as advised in the factory manuals)

 

sorry i busted in ... just supplying another data point on overtorqued items from the dealer

i did loosen them exactly as you say ...

torqued them in stages with my "certified" torque wrench ... i work in aviation and my torque wrench (and a bunch of other tools) must be certified annually

i am a couple hundred miles from rotating the tires on my CMS All4 that were installed at the factory ... can't wait to see how that goes ...

scott

 

Just an FYI, many MANUFACTURERS actually recommend this procedure for oil services, including VW, Audi, BMW, Porsche and yes, probably MINI too. In fact, Mercedes has been doing this at their dealers for the past 15 years or so.
#1 This provides a cleaner oil change with less waste, Less chance of making a mess and less chance of stripping out a drain pan bolt. Most all drain pans are aluminum now and strip out extremely easily. Less spillage and cleaner change means less oil not being recycled = cleaner earth.

This is a perfectly fine procedure for changing oil, so really no reason to get upset about it.

The main issue everyone is likely suffering from is galvanic corrosion or electrolysis. Typically drain plugs can be brass or steel, whereas oil pans are aluminum. Two dissimilar metals in constant contact with the presence of an electrolyte like water from moisture (definitely in the case of long service intervals) or other acids present will cause the two metals to leech into one another.

In the cases where someone may wait 15k miles or 1yr to change their oil, it is very likely that corrosion can cause the drain plug to become seized in the oil pan. Also, in the instances where your dealer sucks the oil out of the dip-stick tube, it could be years since the last time your drain plug was removed. In this instance it would be hard for the plug to NOT be seized.

In most all cases I've run into like this typically a 1/2 inch breaker bar with a cheater pipe will break the drain plug free. I wouldn't advise using an impact for removal- too easy to strip out.


Word of advice, change the drain plug every time you remove it. This will help prevent corrosion. The drain plug from an Audi/VW fits and is cheap. You can buy at any Audi or VW dealer for under $2, or try to buy a bundle of them online.
http://www.autopartsnetwork.com/cata...el:TT+Quattro_

I change my oil every 5k miles and replace the drain plug each time with one of these. I believe it takes a 19mm socket for these drain plugs, which is almost impossible to strip compared to MINI's OE bolt (which is either 12-13mm).

Also the drain plug hardly needs to be torqued. Something like 20Nm of torque. It is NOT MUCH! Replace your drain plug every time with one of these and you'll never have to worry about this issue again.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not buying galvanic corrosion on a drain plug that gets taken out twice a year (or even once) and is coated with oil each time. I think they're just overtightening it......

However, I guess I can see it if it was never removed in 5 or 6 years from new......

I think the drain plugs from MINI are only about $2 too.....and they have the plastic sealing washer....

If you change it regularly and tighten it properly, you'll never have a problem with it.

 

+1
Being fairly old school, I even question the need for a new drain plug. My '85 CRX did just fine with its original, and my '91 and '92 Miatas are doing fine as well. I mean, the threads are coated in oil, no? And it's not like the end is exposed to the environment like a shock bolt.
I have a new one on the MINI, but only because the #@$%^ first three threads of the OEM oil temp sensor plug stripped the oil pan threads (all changes done by the dealer within the OEM maintenance warranty.)

 

I think the moral of the story here is simply change your oil at shorter intervals and barely hand torque the bolt.

As for electrolysis though, if you don't want to take it from me- no harm no foul. But I'm not the only believer:

http://new.minimania.com/part/NME105...2-53-COOPER--S

http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/386...nd-how-to-fix/

http://www.vulcanforums.com/forums/a...p/t-24819.html

Also, Eric Rowland, I believe the CRX had a steel oil pan, mixed with a steel drain plug bolt, you wouldn't experience galvanic corrosion. The Miata I'm not sure about, other than perhaps after 25 years the threads were looser than Jenna Jameson...

 

Also guys,
I'm not sure that the threads being coated in oil would help the plug from siezing... if anything would promote seizing, especially if you don't wipe all the old drained oil out of the plug hole/threads before inserting the oil plug with a coat of fresh oil.

As oil breaks down over the course of driving, the oil becomes more acidic. The Galvanic corrosion requires not only 2 dissimilar metals but also the presence of electrolyte. After 5, 10, 15 thousand miles of driving, you can bet your oil will be acidic and that the longer you drive/wait to change it, the more electrolyte would be present and therefore the more corrosion would occur. This Bobistheoilguy is a great forum for engine oil facts:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...at&Number=3081

The same thing occurs in our cooling system but only worse. The coolant breaks down after years of use and becomes acidic. Electrolyte is formed and promotes corrosion through the entire cooling system, including bearings in water pumps, movable thermostat components, movable heater valve components, etc etc. The same thing occurs with acidic oil causing wear and tear on our engines not only because of grit from carbon buildup, or lack of lubrication due to moisture in the oil, but also because of galvanic corrosion throughout the entire oil lubrication system.


I totally agree that over torquing will also cause a drain plug to become difficult to remove..I just wish that everyone's first reaction wasn't to "blame the tech." The blame the tech attitude is exactly why us tech's hate dealing with people, we become the scapegoat for everyone's problems.

OT, bmwr606, just as Capt_bj said I would agree with 100%. Wheel lugs are supposed to be difficult to remove and require a lot of effort. 103ft/lbs of torque is no simple feat to overcome with the factory tool that's not even a foot long. If ithey were easy to remove, then the lugs would work themselves loose while driving.. Why are some people's first reaction to '***** at the S.A.' just because an amateur struggles to work on their own car?? At 5,000 miles your wheels would have been torqued at the Factory! S.A. probably laughed and told the whole shop about your flip out as soon as you walked out.

 

This is INSANE!

Oil was changed in this 7 weeks ago. Previous owner had it done at Mini.
The bolt was rounded off.
It is not coming off. The engine is lifting up when I try with vice grips.

There is no way it is corrosion in two months.

Someone installed this with an impact or all their might.

 

If you can get a good hold of it with a vicegrips, I would spray it with some penetrating oil and then heat it with a propane torch for a short time. Then put the vice grip on and retry.

 

I feel your pain. They might actually pretend to torque to spec with a hand clicker after using a 160 lb-ft impact gun if you happen to be watching. Discount Tires technicians do this all the time.

 

I finally got it off. I just needed to take a break and vent before I threw the mini across the yard..

It took a chisel, hammer, Vise Grips, PB blaster, and a wish from a genie but it finally broke loose.
ZERO corrosion. the gasket looked new underneath.

I upgraded to a 17mm drain plug.

 

I recently changed trans oil & stripped out the hex socket plug.

So I used a dremel & cut 2 parallel flats. No problem getting it loose now!

 

I used a basin wrench to remove my rounded off bolt.

Better off replacing the traditional plug with a Fumoto valve, p/n F-106, and never have to remove it again.

 

This has happened to me a couple of times and I'm usually the one who does the oil change (although MINI did touch it last...). I think the Fumoto idea sounds like a keeper. Thanks. I'll also try the 1/2" socket as the 6 pt 13mm has started carving the corners off...

 

That should never happen with any competent home mechanic. For drain plug, I never bother to look up the official torque spec but just use my intuition. It seems to me MINI F*** up with the torque spec for the drain plug, FWIW, and don't even get me started with the fancy JCW oil temperature sensor double as the drain plug.

 

Agreed.

It shouldn't happen with a competent professional mechanic either, but it does...

I acquired my R53 from a good friend who brought it to Jiffy Lube for its oil changes. When I changed the oil the first time and discovered the rounded off drain bolt, he told me that they used an air impact wrench to remove/tighten it!

Suggested torque from the Bentley Manual is 25nm (18 ft./lb.) which seems about right, but still, I think the Fumoto valve is the best option in place of the traditional drain plug for several reasons.

 

MINI for SURE told us the wrong wrench size for fit ... it is a PERFECT 1/2 inch. Any metric you use is a sloppy fit at best ....


{not recommending this style wrench, just using to show the perfect fit of the MINI GEN1 bung and 1/2}


there have been MANY theories discussed since 2002 as to why this bung sticks. I feel it is the integrated plastic seal that turns to glue. btw, did you know MINI considers this plastic seal bung to be a ONE TIME USE item? That's right, you should be using a new one every change!

Use a Fumoto ..... and no more worries. (but ONLY on a GEN1 ....)

 

I swear over time the head of those bolts goes soft and that dang seal like bonds to the pan, with almost 300K on my R52 i have done a few oil changes . lol I change mine out ever other time, the 1/2 is perfect like Capt BJ said.

 

I was wondering if it was the length of time the plug stays in the car between oil changes or the fact that my engine was stone cold when I tried to take it out. I ordered the Fumoto today and may take the car to a lift (instead of trying to do it on tire ramps) so I can get a little more leverage on that little plug.

It's been a tough week for L'il Red - I hit the front bumper (a beautiful new one) which is a NLA aero kit item, had the left front wheel arch molding go flying off down the highway, ordered a replacement which came today only it was for the right side, not the left side, and I searched this site for threads and ended up getting called on posting a Gen 1 issue to a Gen 2 site. It's not easy typing when you're standing in the corner with a dunce cap on.

Maybe it'll be better tomorrow...

 

I stand corrected that MINI didn't F* up the torque spec. For something like this I never bother to look up the spec but to use my calibrated arm to torque to spec.

Here is my plug after 48k miles recently changed out for a Fumoto drain ball-**** (WTF that NAM censors a perfectly proper tech term?).

 

A 1/2" 6-point socket on a long 3/8" breaker bar should do the trick without you having to pay to get the car on a lift.

As to mounting the Fumoto, use a 3/4" (19mm will also do) crow-foot wrench, mounted perpendicular on a torque wrench set to 25nm (18 ft/lbs.).


​

 

every Fumoto I've installed I used the

one ugh method of torquing ...

no issues since 2004 .....

difficult to over t' with a standard wrench .. and you are never taking it back off!!!!!!