Drivetrain a Couple of Thoughts on ICs...
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,299
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Wow Don, you sure now how to market your business and get customers.
It amazes me that NAM will black ball people for speaking their mind about vendors but they allow vendors to pick apart NAM members.
And yes Don, my car is not a track car. But I guess you new that being all knowing and all. The scary part Don, is that after looking at your site you really do sell good stuff and for the "most" part know what your talking about.
That said, you are so abrasive I would never make a purchase from you.
Just the truth.
Longboard
It amazes me that NAM will black ball people for speaking their mind about vendors but they allow vendors to pick apart NAM members.
And yes Don, my car is not a track car. But I guess you new that being all knowing and all. The scary part Don, is that after looking at your site you really do sell good stuff and for the "most" part know what your talking about.
That said, you are so abrasive I would never make a purchase from you.
Just the truth.
Longboard
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 0
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 0
From: Metro NY
Wow Don, you sure now how to market your business and get customers.
It amazes me that NAM will black ball people for speaking their mind about vendors but they allow vendors to pick apart NAM members.
And yes Don, my car is not a track car. But I guess you new that being all knowing and all. The scary part Don, is that after looking at your site you really do sell good stuff and for the "most" part know what your talking about.
That said, you are so abrasive I would never make a purchase from you.
Just the truth.
Longboard
It amazes me that NAM will black ball people for speaking their mind about vendors but they allow vendors to pick apart NAM members.
And yes Don, my car is not a track car. But I guess you new that being all knowing and all. The scary part Don, is that after looking at your site you really do sell good stuff and for the "most" part know what your talking about.
That said, you are so abrasive I would never make a purchase from you.
Just the truth.
Longboard
I guess you can say I am like Jeff Burton in the State Farm ads. He races most Thursdays through Sundays but when he is on the public roads he is a slow, cautious driver that is weary of other lesser drivers on the road distracted by foolish things and poor driving habits. What’s the top speed limit anyway – 70 MPH?
Anyway…Since I identified (correctly) that your Mini is a track car I thought it appropriate to ask your thoughts as you may be able to enlighten me and others on the subject at hand. To that end, I was asking about your large opening for the intercooler and the thingies over the cowl openings. Does the increased efficiency of the intercooler and air box overcome associated drag?
Last edited by dmh; Mar 2, 2007 at 04:34 AM.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
Likes: 0
What did I say -- poseur? Splitter on a road car? My customer base is not the sticker and faux carbon fiber group nor do I care to court them. I am interested in those that are interested performance. I own a track prep business and sell only two parts that I developed: the Carl Wegner head and Stahl exhaust. So if I upset you with my language I apologize.
I guess you can say I am like Jeff Burton in the State Farm ads. He races most Thursdays through Sundays but when he is on the public roads he is a slow, cautious driver that is weary of other lesser drivers on the road distracted by foolish things and poor driving habits. What’s the top speed limit anyway – 70 MPH?
Anyway…Since I identified (correctly) that your Mini is a track car I thought it appropriate to ask your thoughts as you may be able to enlighten me and others on the subject at hand. To that end, I was asking about your large opening for the intercooler and the thingies over the cowl openings. Does the increased efficiency of the intercooler and air box overcome associated drag?
I guess you can say I am like Jeff Burton in the State Farm ads. He races most Thursdays through Sundays but when he is on the public roads he is a slow, cautious driver that is weary of other lesser drivers on the road distracted by foolish things and poor driving habits. What’s the top speed limit anyway – 70 MPH?
Anyway…Since I identified (correctly) that your Mini is a track car I thought it appropriate to ask your thoughts as you may be able to enlighten me and others on the subject at hand. To that end, I was asking about your large opening for the intercooler and the thingies over the cowl openings. Does the increased efficiency of the intercooler and air box overcome associated drag?
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 0
From: Metro NY
I think that it is stated that this is not a dedicated track car...... 99.7% of all Minis are street cars. The mods cosmetic/performance) are a statement by the owner. While contributions of vendors are appreciated..... no one has a lock on the only way to "build" a car. Even if one vendors technology was the best available at a given time (debateable) through trial and error others get better and refine/develop their competency (read competition) or go out of business.
My question is still in play though.
Last edited by dmh; Mar 2, 2007 at 05:05 AM.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
Likes: 0
Oops. I misread LB: it's a street car with a splitter! Do you want me to go into the psychology of this? Unbelievable as it may sound psychologists help automakers decide what to build. It shoots straight to the ego (or lack there of). For the record, I drive a pickup truck.
My question is still in play though.
My question is still in play though.
In all due respect..... some things are done for fun.... every one who owns a "strat" can't play like Jimi Hendrix but it is fun to imagine. C'mon Don, lighten up
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 0
From: Metro NY
Speaking of psychology and cars, I have a book from the 80s called U R What You Drive by Tom Couch. Very funny read. Warning: if you cannot take being called what you are (the truth) don't read it. What do I get labeled as? A track junky. See, the truth doesn't hurt me! (Posuer: someone who values form over function, if function at all.)
Last edited by dmh; Mar 2, 2007 at 06:17 AM. Reason: grammer, definition
My little dose of LITHIUM
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 2
From: Albuquerque New Mexico
So, another initially promising thread goes down the tubes...
Never mind, when there's something interesting to post, I'll start another IC thread.
Back to my polishing.
Never mind, when there's something interesting to post, I'll start another IC thread.
Back to my polishing.
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 0
From: Metro NY
Since some of you have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to get your DFIC to work...Does the increased efficiency overcome the associated drag?
The question raised initially by Dr. O has yet to be answered. Are you saying that seeking the answer has killed the thread?
Since some of you have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to get your DFIC to work...Does the increased efficiency overcome the associated drag?
Since some of you have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to get your DFIC to work...Does the increased efficiency overcome the associated drag?
Definitely things to think about when eaking every little inch out of your car for track performance.
That being said... what if you aren't going for track performance. What if you want to be able to hammer your car after sitting in stop and go traffic for an hour and you want it to be as consistent as possible? What if you want a balance between performance and overly safe operating temperatures... Where are the pay-offs and draw backs and where do the meet some where in the middle. In addition how fast of speeds do i need to be obtaining for the increased arodynamics to come into play.
These are all questions that i can only assume answers to. Honestly it's on a per car/ per driver basis with most of the answers being subjective based on the individual persons wants... Maybe the best answer is that there is no one specific balance between track rat and daily driver that will be effective as both. But some of us will chase that balance anyway, even if it is impossible to achieve.
*drk
I'm light! As I said, I do not go after the sticker/carbon fiber crowd. I use the forum for knowledge gathering/sharing. Interestingly, there are lurkers that are interested in performance.
Speaking of psychology and cars, I have a book from the 80s called U R What You Drive by Tom Couch. Very funny read. Warning: if you cannot take being called what you are (the truth) don't read it. What do I get labeled as? A track junky. See, the truth doesn't hurt me! (Posuer: someone who values form over function, if function at all.)
Speaking of psychology and cars, I have a book from the 80s called U R What You Drive by Tom Couch. Very funny read. Warning: if you cannot take being called what you are (the truth) don't read it. What do I get labeled as? A track junky. See, the truth doesn't hurt me! (Posuer: someone who values form over function, if function at all.)
To bad, there are allot of interesting things out here.
And yes, you did kill this thread.
3rd Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Me too!
Wow Don, you sure now how to market your business and get customers.
It amazes me that NAM will black ball people for speaking their mind about vendors but they allow vendors to pick apart NAM members.
And yes Don, my car is not a track car. But I guess you new that being all knowing and all. The scary part Don, is that after looking at your site you really do sell good stuff and for the "most" part know what your talking about.
That said, you are so abrasive I would never make a purchase from you.
Just the truth.
Longboard
It amazes me that NAM will black ball people for speaking their mind about vendors but they allow vendors to pick apart NAM members.
And yes Don, my car is not a track car. But I guess you new that being all knowing and all. The scary part Don, is that after looking at your site you really do sell good stuff and for the "most" part know what your talking about.
That said, you are so abrasive I would never make a purchase from you.
Just the truth.
Longboard
, reTHREADed 
and save Don from the tourch ......................Valid point being raised here. AND if you take DocO's IC data - you can use it to help guide you in your IC selection.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,340
Likes: 4
From: Woodside, CA
I just got back from Gary's house...
we put on a DFIC and a Air Plate Diverter on his car....
Anyway, it had the insulating blanket that goes under the IC. I think that would do a very good job keeping hot engine heat away that would reduce heat soak at low speeds....
Gary and I were talking about the install and he was asking about what to expect.... That got me thinking again.... Seems there are three things to look for with an IC....
1) High speed high power operation. This would be the road racer......
2) Heat soak rejection/recovery. This is for the street driver......
3) Throttle response. This is for everyone.....
Depending on how you weight the various aspects, you may get a very different answer as to what is "best"...
Matt
Anyway, it had the insulating blanket that goes under the IC. I think that would do a very good job keeping hot engine heat away that would reduce heat soak at low speeds....
Gary and I were talking about the install and he was asking about what to expect.... That got me thinking again.... Seems there are three things to look for with an IC....
1) High speed high power operation. This would be the road racer......
2) Heat soak rejection/recovery. This is for the street driver......
3) Throttle response. This is for everyone.....
Depending on how you weight the various aspects, you may get a very different answer as to what is "best"...
Matt
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
It's been my experience as an academic economist, that theory and practice diverge mainly to the many factors that are not controlled-for, or accounted-for, in the theory. There are very few theories that explain everything! I've experienced these divergences many times, in bicycling, audio, photography, and now automobiles. I have been logging lots of data from my DFIC and related intake system, and my observations tend to be consistent with what Matt (Dr Obnxs) often states. What surprises me most about all the posts here on NAM concerning IC modifications and related data is the consistency of observations. The variance in IATs, for example, is so high under anything we'd call normal driving conditions, far exceeds any measurable differences between one mod and another. I have measured treatment effects for various mods on my car of 2-3F. This is so small compared to the normal variation in IATs, or any temperature measurement at any point on the intake path, to make any conclusions about improvements pretty heroic.
I'm pretty sanguine about the effectiveness of the stock IC, especially when, as you point out, lots of air is rammed into it at 90deg. My stock IC, modified Alta diverter and Ram Intake worked pretty well but preceded my data logging capabilities. I think the DFIC works pretty well also, especially with some help in other areas to increase air flow and reduce heat transfer (see my write up on my website where this is all documented.)
I still think a lot of this is like polishing a turd, as my father used to say...
I'm pretty sanguine about the effectiveness of the stock IC, especially when, as you point out, lots of air is rammed into it at 90deg. My stock IC, modified Alta diverter and Ram Intake worked pretty well but preceded my data logging capabilities. I think the DFIC works pretty well also, especially with some help in other areas to increase air flow and reduce heat transfer (see my write up on my website where this is all documented.)
I still think a lot of this is like polishing a turd, as my father used to say...
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,047
Likes: 0
From: NJerz
I just stopped to wonder why Dinan never messed with the IC, and neither did JCW until the GP, and even then, it's basically the same thing just a little bigger, no?
mb
I think the ideal air-air IC will be as light as the stock unit, with the same fin density, but flow through like a DFIC.
I have one started, and after reading this thread, it makes me want to finish it.
I have one started, and after reading this thread, it makes me want to finish it.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,340
Likes: 4
From: Woodside, CA
I honestly don't know....
Ok, so help the uninformed: which unit, that we know of, would be appropriate for 1 2 and 3? Could I deduce the GP for 1, DFIC for 2, and I have no idea for 3?
I just stopped to wonder why Dinan never messed with the IC, and neither did JCW until the GP, and even then, it's basically the same thing just a little bigger, no?
mb
I just stopped to wonder why Dinan never messed with the IC, and neither did JCW until the GP, and even then, it's basically the same thing just a little bigger, no?
mb
Air resistance. Pressure drop in the core goes as the square of the velocity (not exactly, but close enough). So the higher your total air flow the more drop you'll have, for any core. But if you live at higher RPM, lower pressure drop cores will maintain more boost.
Thermal efficiency. This goes up with speed (same engine load) for any IC as there's an increase in cooling air flow. At lower speeds scoops will help this for sure. But for higher speeds I Don't know if the benefit is more or less than the aero hit.
Now, these two tend to go hand in hand, higher TEs tend to have higher pressure drops, but that's not always true (see the mods people are doing to the ICs and diverters for hints on this area).
Now, what's best? Depends on the user. But if you're not on a timed track, it's a very subjective judgement. Another way to put it is if I really knew the answer, I wouldn't be changing ICs all the time!
For short term power, W2A with ice in it blows all the air to airs away!
Matt
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
Heres my take on on it.
Gary and I were talking about the install and he was asking about what to expect.... That got me thinking again.... Seems there are three things to look for with an IC....
1) High speed high power operation. This would be the road racer......
DFIC ,needs high speed to push the air through all that thickness
2) Heat soak rejection/recovery. This is for the street driver......
GP, ALTA classic ,thin ,top mounted ,taking off from a stop light with low cooling air flow ,the cooling air will get through them easier and sooner
3) Throttle response. This is for everyone.....
smooth plastic tube
Depending on how you weight the various aspects, you may get a very different answer as to what is "best"...
As far as rating ,with all regards including costs I think probably a clean stock IC is best
Gary and I were talking about the install and he was asking about what to expect.... That got me thinking again.... Seems there are three things to look for with an IC....
1) High speed high power operation. This would be the road racer......
DFIC ,needs high speed to push the air through all that thickness
2) Heat soak rejection/recovery. This is for the street driver......
GP, ALTA classic ,thin ,top mounted ,taking off from a stop light with low cooling air flow ,the cooling air will get through them easier and sooner
3) Throttle response. This is for everyone.....
smooth plastic tube
Depending on how you weight the various aspects, you may get a very different answer as to what is "best"...
As far as rating ,with all regards including costs I think probably a clean stock IC is best
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 716
Likes: 0
From: Cumming, GA
I'm beginning to wonder if we gave the MINI designers enough credit for some pretty thoughtful, even visionary, design.