What does MINI recommend when braking. Do they recommend downshifting and braking or just braking. I have heard that Porsche does not recommend downshifting but just use the brakes. Too hard on a Porsche engine. I always downshift and brake. Will this damage the motor and/or clutch?

 

Many, many famous race people think downshifting is a waste of time, and many, many famous race people thing it's the best. The arguament mostly comes down to always available power with more work, to aren't gonna use the power, so put the bandwidth into better, smoother braking and transition, and get on the power when you need it.

6 of one, half dozen of the other. But that's all for track work. For day to day I find myself doing a mix, depending on the situation...

So Im no help at all!

matt

 

I really doubt Porsche recommends not to downshift... it is the way to drive a manual.

 

personally I don't use downshifting to slow the car if ths is what your talking about. I let the brakes do all the work as that is what they are made for and most importaintly, "tuned" for.

 

I agree. The whole idea of using the engine to brake the car came from the days of drum brakes, when brake fade was a fact of life. The only reasons I can think of for downshifting nowadays are: being in the right gear as you come out of a turn, and (maybe) sounding "cool."

As a mechanic once explained to me: "Brake pads are a lot cheaper to replace than clutch discs."

 

onasled,


in your latest video at around 2:10, you seem to be compressing the engine braking into that curve. Am I getting something totally wrong here???

Heel-toe downshifting is one of the first thing they teach in race school...

 

"Brake pads are a lot cheaper to replace than clutch" but I have always downshifted. I may try just using the brakes.

 

I use the brakes to slow the car, clutch engagaed, I then rev match for the new prevailing need, and gear I need to be in.
I sometimes downshift to slow the car when coming off highway speeds to go through a slow zone, but again I rev match.

 

Depends on why I'm slowing down. If I'm going from a highway into a town but not stopping, I'll downshift and engine brake until I'm in the right gear. If I'm going to stop I use the brake only, but downshift at the same time with the clutch disengaged, that way I'm ready if I need to power out of trouble.

It's true, brakes are cheaper than clutches, but in 40 years of driving manuals, be it big trucks, cars, tractors, motorcycles etc. I've never yet needed a clutch replaced. (Knock on wood!)

 

I use the brakes, they serve the purpose very well. downshifting is for emergency purposes only. On the other hand, proper downshifting will not hurt the clutch at all

 

I believe you are correct about Porsche's recommendation. For stopping the car in normal circumstances using only brakes should cause less wear on the drivetrain than downshifting and braking. It should also be better for gas mileage. A lot of 911s are driven for 200,000 miles so minor wear and tear on every trip would have an impact.

Experience with my MCSa makes me believe MINI feels otherwise. My car downshifts for me when I am braking even though I would prefer to remain in a higher gear with lower rpm. Perhaps MINI is compelled to recreate the feel of a traditional racer while Porsche isn't.

As for double clutching I recall that Steve McQueen also double clutched while shifting up in the movie Bullitt. My father's mechanic used to do that in every car he drove. I never understood why although it looked and sounded impressive.

 

No syncros, and to get the revs matched

 

No, that's the Ferrari you are hearing. I actually was coming into that corner pretty slow to let him by.
I'm no expert driver, but Heal toe in the cooper is not so nessasary as the revs drop very slowly in our S cars.
It's funny when I hear these cars dropping two or three gears coming into Big Bend, because I only use two gears throughout the entire track at LRP, 4th and 5th. Sometimes drop it into third if I'm behind a slow car in the corners.

 

The reason you don't want to downshift a P-Car to slow it is that it could very easily spin out. It would be like having very poor brake biased and using more rear brake then front. Downshifting to slow a car while racing is a very bad idea, as is on the street. High compression race cars would just go into a spin.

 

Ever since DT put in my M7 flywheel, its so light that my car simply doesn't engine brake at all. Well, nearly. I engine brake in my classic all the time.

 

I normally use engine braking along with the normal brakes but always with a heel-toe downshift. I'm always working on perfecting the technique. I usually drop two gears when downshifting so 6-4 and 5-3 so the engine actually has some rpm's to shed off (this is on the street, mind you). When I'm going into my neighborhood, I'll throw in a 5-2 downshift taking 5th down to almost 30 mph and then heel-toe into 2nd at 2800 rpm or so. Also, when I'm just dropping down a gear w/o brakes, I'll double clutch to take the strain off the syncros.

The flywheels on the MINI are just way to heavy to expect any kind of speed on downshifts. Both my friends Toyota MR2 and my Honda Insight rev 2x as fast as my MCS. Time for that lightened flywheel.

 

Engine braking has always been something I've enjoyed in manual transmission cars. I think the focus is being as smooth as possible. Perhaps it is only self satisfaction but i enjoy the feeling of downshifting into corners, and staying hooked up with the throttle.

Having said that I do tend to stick it in neutral and simply use the breaks comng up to a stop light.

What confuses me though is how the new cluthless transmissions work. Watching the French grandprix it certainly appeared that some engine braking was being used as the drivers moved down through their gears.

 

There are obviously many opinions about whether it is worth doing, but will engine braking hurt the MINI engine. Some of us older guys have been using engine braking for years (I didn't know that was what it is called until this thread). Maybe the new MINI has not been around long enough for anyone to have an definite answer. I downshift when stopping out of habit and it looks like it is not going to be easy to stop the habit unless there is a good reason to.

 

I'm a fan of the heel-toe as well, it feels great when you get it just right. I too feel a better sense of control when downshifting, whether its slowing down for a stop light, coming off the highway or just slowing the car down. At this point I don't really see any harm to the engine. As long as you keep your revs in check. This is an age old topic, but still fun to debate. Just my 2 cents.

motor on!

 

I went thru a high performace driving school and the instructor said when braking for a corner, the car needs to be put into the gear used for getting out of the corner prior to entering the corner. He said, for the purpose of the driving school, the recommended way of heel-toe downshift with matching revs was the not what he wanted us to do. Rather he wanted us to concentrate on threshhold braking, not braking while in the corner (trail braking) and being in the right gear for corner exit prior to entry into the corner.

 

The main reason for heel and toe downshift is to not upset the weight distribution of the vehicle so you can go in/out smoother and therefore faster.

 

I'll downshift if I know I'll need a lower gear, say coming up on a sharp bend in the road. I'll brake without downshifting if I know I'm coming to a complete stop. As Lombard posted, brake pads are cheaper than clutches. Lot15 is correct about double-clutching, it's a holdover from before there were effective synchros. My Dad once owned a 57 International school bus that was converted into a camper. It had a 5 speed trans (granny first gear) with a dual electric rear axle, high and low. No synchros at all, so one had to double-clutch going up as well as coming down through the gears.

 

For street driving, I leave it in the current gear as long as it is slowing down the car with engine compression. Then I put it in neutral and use the brakes. Of course their are times when you need to downshift so you have the right gear for exit speed. But the brakes are the way to go for most situations.

 

Sorry, but I just had to laugh when I saw this video. Read the attached post above by myeslf ...Then watch this video .

 

Clean pants check!

That'll give you the sweaty armpits....

He about beelined for the tires. whew...