Drivetrain BMW & Peugeot New engine ..What can be done?
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3rd Gear
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BMW & Peugeot New engine ..What can be done?
Just read about the new engine that will be offered in the MINI in the 2006-07 year.
Just wanted to know what can be done with this engine?
What kind of power can be had from this evolution in design?
There are photographs on Motorigfile web page
Just wanted to know what can be done with this engine?
What kind of power can be had from this evolution in design?
There are photographs on Motorigfile web page
GABE has brought us the news at his site www.motoringfile.com
http://www.motoringfile.com/2004/12/...w_engine_range
BMW & Peugeot Announce New Engine
Here's some news that gives us a glimpse into the future of the MINI range. BMW and PSA have released preliminary information regarding the new range of engines (code named Prince) that will power, among other things, the next generation of MINIs. Here's the press release:
"BMW Group and PSA Peugeot Citroen have unveiled the state-of-the-art technologies deployed in their new gasoline engines, the first to be jointly developed and produced by their cooperative venture.
Announced in July 2002, the two Companies' cooperation in gasoline engines is now setting new standards for performance, driving comfort and reductions in fuel consumption and CO2 emissions.
Beginning in 2006, the engines will equip small and mid-size cars produced by the Peugeot and Citroen marques as well as future models of the MINI. Production is expected to eventually total roughly one million units a year.
At a special technology day at BMW Group's Research and Development Center in Munich, executives from both companies presented the technical features of two types of engines:
A 1.6-liter atmospheric engine with a variable geometry turbocharger and a power output of 85 kW (115 hp).
A 1.6-liter direct injection, compressed turbo engine with a power output of 105 kW (143 hp). The new models are the first in a family that will eventually comprise engines delivering a range of power outputs from 55 kW (75 hp) to 125 kW (170 hp).
As a result of both group's expertise, these engines offer a large number of new features including:
Variable valve timing.
Fully controlled oil pump.
Single belt drive for all ancillary components.
Cylinder heads produced by lost foam casting.
In addition, several innovations have been developed, including:
Direct injection to optimize power.
Twin-Scroll turbocharger to improve response time and driving comfort.
Self-disengaging water pump to reduce fuel consumption and emissions.
The co-operation between BMW Group and PSA Peugeot Citroen clearly demonstrates that gasoline engines still offer a great potential of technological progress, thus contributing to the reduction of consumption and CO2 emissions while enhancing the car performances and its related driving pleasure."
What's that? You swear you've seen these specs before? Well if you're a dedicated MotoringFile or MINI2 reader you did almost exactly a year ago.
While the specs very closely follow what was posted on previously, they differ somewhat from what we've read recently in AutoExpress. Specifically there's no mention of a 200hp engine as a 170hp version is the highest listed.
http://www.motoringfile.com/2004/12/...w_engine_range
BMW & Peugeot Announce New Engine
Here's some news that gives us a glimpse into the future of the MINI range. BMW and PSA have released preliminary information regarding the new range of engines (code named Prince) that will power, among other things, the next generation of MINIs. Here's the press release:
"BMW Group and PSA Peugeot Citroen have unveiled the state-of-the-art technologies deployed in their new gasoline engines, the first to be jointly developed and produced by their cooperative venture.
Announced in July 2002, the two Companies' cooperation in gasoline engines is now setting new standards for performance, driving comfort and reductions in fuel consumption and CO2 emissions.
Beginning in 2006, the engines will equip small and mid-size cars produced by the Peugeot and Citroen marques as well as future models of the MINI. Production is expected to eventually total roughly one million units a year.
At a special technology day at BMW Group's Research and Development Center in Munich, executives from both companies presented the technical features of two types of engines:
A 1.6-liter atmospheric engine with a variable geometry turbocharger and a power output of 85 kW (115 hp).
A 1.6-liter direct injection, compressed turbo engine with a power output of 105 kW (143 hp). The new models are the first in a family that will eventually comprise engines delivering a range of power outputs from 55 kW (75 hp) to 125 kW (170 hp).
As a result of both group's expertise, these engines offer a large number of new features including:
Variable valve timing.
Fully controlled oil pump.
Single belt drive for all ancillary components.
Cylinder heads produced by lost foam casting.
In addition, several innovations have been developed, including:
Direct injection to optimize power.
Twin-Scroll turbocharger to improve response time and driving comfort.
Self-disengaging water pump to reduce fuel consumption and emissions.
The co-operation between BMW Group and PSA Peugeot Citroen clearly demonstrates that gasoline engines still offer a great potential of technological progress, thus contributing to the reduction of consumption and CO2 emissions while enhancing the car performances and its related driving pleasure."
What's that? You swear you've seen these specs before? Well if you're a dedicated MotoringFile or MINI2 reader you did almost exactly a year ago.
While the specs very closely follow what was posted on previously, they differ somewhat from what we've read recently in AutoExpress. Specifically there's no mention of a 200hp engine as a 170hp version is the highest listed.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
You can get 500hp from the engines. There are already three tuning kits out for the engine. Stage 1 will take you to 300hp, Stage 2 to 400hp, and Stage 3 to 500hp, at the wheels. These are great engines, I have been runing the Stage 2 kit for a while and it is da bomb. Way better than JCW!
Sorry just having some fun. Actually, no one knows because no one has seen the engine or used it yet. The engine will first be shown in some 2005 models from Peugot. From there we will get an idea on the engine. The US will be slow with the tuning packages probably because how many tuning companies in the US have experience with Peugot, very few to none!
It will probably be tunable in the same manner most turbo's are tunable. Exhaust, downpipe, wastegate, bigger turbo, ECU tuning to increase boost... One thing you will see is better ECU tuning numbers. Most of this is because turbos are much easier to get an increase in performance from an ECU upgrade than a supercharged application, since boost is controlled by the ECU, unlike the mechanical control (pulley) from a supercharger. If the MCS doesn't have an intercooler, that will be another example of some tuning parameters that can be increased. My guess is that the turbo Peugot engine will not be as good as the supercharged Chrysler for this application. Sure if your focus is on boost numbers, and peak hp numbers it may do better, but from a drivability perspective, the supercharged Chrysler is much better for a small car like the Mini that is expected to jump between curves. To always have to keep the boost up on the small Mini will not be as much fun.
Sorry just having some fun. Actually, no one knows because no one has seen the engine or used it yet. The engine will first be shown in some 2005 models from Peugot. From there we will get an idea on the engine. The US will be slow with the tuning packages probably because how many tuning companies in the US have experience with Peugot, very few to none!
It will probably be tunable in the same manner most turbo's are tunable. Exhaust, downpipe, wastegate, bigger turbo, ECU tuning to increase boost... One thing you will see is better ECU tuning numbers. Most of this is because turbos are much easier to get an increase in performance from an ECU upgrade than a supercharged application, since boost is controlled by the ECU, unlike the mechanical control (pulley) from a supercharger. If the MCS doesn't have an intercooler, that will be another example of some tuning parameters that can be increased. My guess is that the turbo Peugot engine will not be as good as the supercharged Chrysler for this application. Sure if your focus is on boost numbers, and peak hp numbers it may do better, but from a drivability perspective, the supercharged Chrysler is much better for a small car like the Mini that is expected to jump between curves. To always have to keep the boost up on the small Mini will not be as much fun.
Coordinator :: Northwest Indiana MINIacs
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,412
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From: Valparaiso, IN
Confused
That original quote has me confused
Ok I know that I speak Amerikan and not the Qeen's English... But an atmospheric engine is normally aspirated and thus will not have a turbocharger.
Still it seems to me that BMW is underpowering the MINI. Everyone has a 200 hp four cylinder. Heck Honda does it without a turbo or supercharger!
Maybe someday someone will hack into a MINI and do something reminicent of the Renault R5 Turbo! Mid Engine 4wd in a front engine hatchback.
A 1.6-liter atmospheric engine with a variable geometry turbocharger and a power output of 85 kW (115 hp).
A 1.6-liter direct injection, compressed turbo engine with a power output of 105 kW (143 hp). The new models are the first in a family that will eventually comprise engines delivering a range of power outputs from 55 kW (75 hp) to 125 kW (170 hp).
A 1.6-liter direct injection, compressed turbo engine with a power output of 105 kW (143 hp). The new models are the first in a family that will eventually comprise engines delivering a range of power outputs from 55 kW (75 hp) to 125 kW (170 hp).
Still it seems to me that BMW is underpowering the MINI. Everyone has a 200 hp four cylinder. Heck Honda does it without a turbo or supercharger!
Maybe someday someone will hack into a MINI and do something reminicent of the Renault R5 Turbo! Mid Engine 4wd in a front engine hatchback.
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 696
Likes: 0
From: Ohio
Originally Posted by DrDiff
That original quote has me confused
Ok I know that I speak Amerikan and not the Qeen's English... But an atmospheric engine is normally aspirated and thus will not have a turbocharger.
Still it seems to me that BMW is underpowering the MINI. Everyone has a 200 hp four cylinder. Heck Honda does it without a turbo or supercharger!
Maybe someday someone will hack into a MINI and do something reminicent of the Renault R5 Turbo! Mid Engine 4wd in a front engine hatchback.
Ok I know that I speak Amerikan and not the Qeen's English... But an atmospheric engine is normally aspirated and thus will not have a turbocharger.
Still it seems to me that BMW is underpowering the MINI. Everyone has a 200 hp four cylinder. Heck Honda does it without a turbo or supercharger!
Maybe someday someone will hack into a MINI and do something reminicent of the Renault R5 Turbo! Mid Engine 4wd in a front engine hatchback.
, but with more power.http://www.motoringfile.com/search.php?search=twinster
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,664
Likes: 1
From: Orlando, FL
MINI's problem is not stepping the power up so to annoy owners of the previous models. If MINI jumps from a 170 hp SC to a 200 hp TC Cooper S, there are going to be many pissed owners. Turbo's are much easier to tune than superchargers but the MINI's style is more in tune to the torque of an SC. I'm sure there will be many tuning companies with 250 hp+ kits, though. For me, bring on the twinscrew 
personally i love supercharging.. but one cannot deny the possiblities of a turbo... i can only imagine what i'd be like when a 4wd mini comes along... (bring on the evos!)
in the end... outright power to me isn't the mini's strong suit and it shouldnt be... just my 2 cents
in the end... outright power to me isn't the mini's strong suit and it shouldnt be... just my 2 cents
1st Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: Seattle
Originally Posted by DrDiff
That original quote has me confused
Ok I know that I speak Amerikan and not the Qeen's English... But an atmospheric engine is normally aspirated and thus will not have a turbocharger.
Still it seems to me that BMW is underpowering the MINI. Everyone has a 200 hp four cylinder. Heck Honda does it without a turbo or supercharger!
Maybe someday someone will hack into a MINI and do something reminicent of the Renault R5 Turbo! Mid Engine 4wd in a front engine hatchback.
Ok I know that I speak Amerikan and not the Qeen's English... But an atmospheric engine is normally aspirated and thus will not have a turbocharger.
Still it seems to me that BMW is underpowering the MINI. Everyone has a 200 hp four cylinder. Heck Honda does it without a turbo or supercharger!
Maybe someday someone will hack into a MINI and do something reminicent of the Renault R5 Turbo! Mid Engine 4wd in a front engine hatchback.
Torque is what makes a car more driveable - it's the "pull". Also why many people like a Supercharger - more low and mid range torque than normally reached with a Turbo.
Just my two cents - I'm taking a "wait and see" approach, because as far as I can tell, it shows promise.
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6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
So long as it remains FWD, we can reach the the limits of driving practicality (drive-ability) with our current powerplants, and probably with a fatter bottom due to the SC, especially with something like a twinscrew...
And if the future variant does convert to AWD, and God forbid, also get longer (13 more inches for WRC), we will have a 3,000+ pound "MINI"
. It then wouldn't have all of the virtures that have made her unique (not to mention the higher price tag, and worse gas mileage). Many already feel that the Mini's legacy was discarded with our new MINIs... If it were to become this big (girth & mass), it would seem sacrilegious.
If I recall correctly, this engine will be significantly lighter though. And if MINI keeps the dimensions in check, adding AWD might not make for a huge weight delta. But, if it stays FWD, the benefits of a more powerful upside are not exactly a huge selling point, at least for me. With current available upgrades, we can get to 250hp, with the stock blower being the only source of forced air. With a twincharged or twinscrew SC set-up, 300 and beyond seems very doable. However, even with an LSD to get it down better, apparently it is indeed limited in the traction it affords. At some point more just becomes excessive, as in wheel spin and funds spent, etc...
MINI has its unique niche. Even with her relatively large size now (compared to the Mini), she was a slalom champ upon her release a couple years ago (Road & Track). Something longer and heavier would not be able to carry such speeds through this type of driving (transitions):
R&T tests (copy/paste from another forum):
MINI Cooper -- 67.6 mph
Ruf Rturbo – 65.7 mph
Ferrari F50 – 65.7 mph
Acura (Honda) NSX – 62.1 mph
Audi TT 1.8T – 64.4 mph
Corvette Z06 – 67.1 mph
Viper GTS – 63.6 mph
Honda S2000 – 65.9 mph
Ford Focus ZTS – 62.9 mph
Diablo 6.0 – 66.4 mph
Boxster S – 65.6 mph
New Beetle 1.8T GLS – 59.1 mph
Subaru Impreza WRX – 62.8 mph
Lexus IS 300 – 65.6 mph
Mazda Miata MX-5 -- 62.7 mph
And if the future variant does convert to AWD, and God forbid, also get longer (13 more inches for WRC), we will have a 3,000+ pound "MINI"
. It then wouldn't have all of the virtures that have made her unique (not to mention the higher price tag, and worse gas mileage). Many already feel that the Mini's legacy was discarded with our new MINIs... If it were to become this big (girth & mass), it would seem sacrilegious.If I recall correctly, this engine will be significantly lighter though. And if MINI keeps the dimensions in check, adding AWD might not make for a huge weight delta. But, if it stays FWD, the benefits of a more powerful upside are not exactly a huge selling point, at least for me. With current available upgrades, we can get to 250hp, with the stock blower being the only source of forced air. With a twincharged or twinscrew SC set-up, 300 and beyond seems very doable. However, even with an LSD to get it down better, apparently it is indeed limited in the traction it affords. At some point more just becomes excessive, as in wheel spin and funds spent, etc...
MINI has its unique niche. Even with her relatively large size now (compared to the Mini), she was a slalom champ upon her release a couple years ago (Road & Track). Something longer and heavier would not be able to carry such speeds through this type of driving (transitions):
R&T tests (copy/paste from another forum):
MINI Cooper -- 67.6 mph
Ruf Rturbo – 65.7 mph
Ferrari F50 – 65.7 mph
Acura (Honda) NSX – 62.1 mph
Audi TT 1.8T – 64.4 mph
Corvette Z06 – 67.1 mph
Viper GTS – 63.6 mph
Honda S2000 – 65.9 mph
Ford Focus ZTS – 62.9 mph
Diablo 6.0 – 66.4 mph
Boxster S – 65.6 mph
New Beetle 1.8T GLS – 59.1 mph
Subaru Impreza WRX – 62.8 mph
Lexus IS 300 – 65.6 mph
Mazda Miata MX-5 -- 62.7 mph
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,707
Likes: 0
From: Centerville, Ohio
Originally Posted by GoodOlDan
What do you think can be done with a French engine, silly man? Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time! 
D.
D.
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 696
Likes: 0
From: Ohio
Originally Posted by GoodOlDan
What do you think can be done with a French engine, silly man? Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!
D.
D.
(an engine that is...) LOL Python Rules!
Originally Posted by USAMINICOOPER
Just read about the new engine that will be offered in the MINI in the 2006-07 year.
Just wanted to know what can be done with this engine?
Just wanted to know what can be done with this engine?
First you can work on stopping all the oil leaks from those Frog motors!
Dave
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3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2004
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All joking aside isn't the Twin-Scroll turbocharger is very easy to mod for high HP output..... you can do a lot, modifying the boost Software and a controller. It would seem, if the engine is made well, that this platform can put out a bunch of HP.
It would seem, if the engine is made well, that this platform can put out a bunch of HP.
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3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2004
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
Four-cylinder gasoline engine with turbocharger and
direct injection (105 kW/143 bhp).
Design and configuration – Straight-four
Maximum output KW/PS 105/143 at 5,500 rpm
Maximum torque Nm/lb-ft 240/177 at 1,400–4,000 rpm
Combustion process – Turbocharged gasoline engine with direct fuel injection/λ = 1.0/twin-scroll
exhaust gas turbocharger
Maximum charge pressure bar 0.8
Capacity, effective cc 1,598
Compression ratio – 10.5:1
Bore/stroke mm 77/85.8
Crankcase material – Aluminium with sintered steel inserts; cylinder liners made of grey-cast iron
Distance between cylinders
Lenght of crankcase
Height of crankcase
mm 84
420
210
Connecting rods mm Crack technology, trapezoidal connecting rods
Camshafts – 2 chain-driven, composite camshafts
Camshaft adjustment – Hydraulically, infinitely variable phase adjustment of intake camshaft
Valve drive Roller-type drag arms; hydraulic valve play compensation
Valve lift intake/outlet mm 9.0/9.0
Valves per cylinder 4
Motor weight according to BMW Group
standards
kg 130
Engine managment/fuel supply/ignition – Digital Motor Electronics/sequential high-pressure direct fuel injection/
individual coils, knock control
Injection pressure bar 120
Fuel grade RON 91–98 (power rating to RON 98)
Certified emission standard – EU4/ULEV II
Exhaust system – Grey-cast iron manifold with three-way main catalyst close to engine
Cooling On-demand mechanical coolant pump, knock-controlled coolant
temperature
Four-cylinder gasoline engine with turbocharger and
direct injection (105 kW/143 bhp).
Design and configuration – Straight-four
Maximum output KW/PS 105/143 at 5,500 rpm
Maximum torque Nm/lb-ft 240/177 at 1,400–4,000 rpm
Combustion process – Turbocharged gasoline engine with direct fuel injection/λ = 1.0/twin-scroll
exhaust gas turbocharger
Maximum charge pressure bar 0.8
Capacity, effective cc 1,598
Compression ratio – 10.5:1
Bore/stroke mm 77/85.8
Crankcase material – Aluminium with sintered steel inserts; cylinder liners made of grey-cast iron
Distance between cylinders
Lenght of crankcase
Height of crankcase
mm 84
420
210
Connecting rods mm Crack technology, trapezoidal connecting rods
Camshafts – 2 chain-driven, composite camshafts
Camshaft adjustment – Hydraulically, infinitely variable phase adjustment of intake camshaft
Valve drive Roller-type drag arms; hydraulic valve play compensation
Valve lift intake/outlet mm 9.0/9.0
Valves per cylinder 4
Motor weight according to BMW Group
standards
kg 130
Engine managment/fuel supply/ignition – Digital Motor Electronics/sequential high-pressure direct fuel injection/
individual coils, knock control
Injection pressure bar 120
Fuel grade RON 91–98 (power rating to RON 98)
Certified emission standard – EU4/ULEV II
Exhaust system – Grey-cast iron manifold with three-way main catalyst close to engine
Cooling On-demand mechanical coolant pump, knock-controlled coolant
temperature
"These two engines are the first members in a complete family of power units which will ultimately range in output from 55 kW/75 bhp all the way to 125 kW/170 bhp."
well, when are they going to have the 170 hp family member? i can't imagine bmw is dumb enough to release the mcs with just the 143 hp engine.
the weight for this is listed at 130kg. does anybody know the weight of the current mcs engine?
well, when are they going to have the 170 hp family member? i can't imagine bmw is dumb enough to release the mcs with just the 143 hp engine.
the weight for this is listed at 130kg. does anybody know the weight of the current mcs engine?
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