Drivetrain Next upgrade suggestions...
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3rd Gear
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 154
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From: West LA
So I've got a pretty quick car.. I've been bitten by the modding bug, and I just want to keep going! I currently have an Alta CAI and pulley, Webb/Powerchips ECU, and a Borla Sport exhaust.
I'm thinking about getting a rear sway bar as the next big ticket purchase, but am wondering what you all think. Should that be my next upgrade after what I've already done? Or should I continue to improve the engine and its breathing?
The goal, ultimately, is to have a nice street car that looks stock (apart from the exhaust), but can give other cars a run for their money, and impress me in the turns. I definitely value handling over pure top speed and horsepower, but I'll settle for some more torque. :smile:
So in list form, these are what's next! Any suggestions to change this order?
1) Alta rear sway bar 22mm
2) New tires (after runflats wear out)
3) New wheels (after runflats wear out)
4) Nology wires, better sparkplugs, etc.
Anything else I'm missing? I do like the look of a lowered mini, and may go with some lowering springs eventually, but I'll wait till new tires and wheels are put in.
I'm thinking about getting a rear sway bar as the next big ticket purchase, but am wondering what you all think. Should that be my next upgrade after what I've already done? Or should I continue to improve the engine and its breathing?
The goal, ultimately, is to have a nice street car that looks stock (apart from the exhaust), but can give other cars a run for their money, and impress me in the turns. I definitely value handling over pure top speed and horsepower, but I'll settle for some more torque. :smile:
So in list form, these are what's next! Any suggestions to change this order?
1) Alta rear sway bar 22mm
2) New tires (after runflats wear out)
3) New wheels (after runflats wear out)
4) Nology wires, better sparkplugs, etc.
Anything else I'm missing? I do like the look of a lowered mini, and may go with some lowering springs eventually, but I'll wait till new tires and wheels are put in.
Coordinator :: PDX MINI
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,709
Likes: 0
From: PDX
>>I think you should concentrate in improving your engine's breathing.
Alta CAI is a good start! To further improve the airway, Alta hose, larger throttle body, and header can be considered, although a bit costly for returned performance. On the other hand, the ignition upgrades like the coil, wires, and plugs might be cheaper, but some have reported negligible performance difference.
Sway bar is a total must for any MOD BUG. :smile:
_________________
Alta CAI is a good start! To further improve the airway, Alta hose, larger throttle body, and header can be considered, although a bit costly for returned performance. On the other hand, the ignition upgrades like the coil, wires, and plugs might be cheaper, but some have reported negligible performance difference.
Sway bar is a total must for any MOD BUG. :smile:
_________________
OVERDRIVE - Racing Champion
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,262
Likes: 72
From: Mililani, Hawaii
Rune,
You're doing great already.
>>So I've got a pretty quick car.. I've been bitten by the modding bug, and I just want to keep going! I currently have an Alta CAI and pulley, Webb/Powerchips ECU, and a Borla Sport exhaust.
With this setup you have you don't need to do anything else powerwise. You have the big bang items already and anything more will cost lots of $$ and the gains will be small. Hardly worth the effort unless you race autocross or on the track.
>>I'm thinking about getting a rear sway bar as the next big ticket purchase, but am wondering what you all think. Should that be my next upgrade after what I've already done? Or should I continue to improve the engine and its breathing?
Better than any engine upgrades I would be looking at suspension and wheels.
1. Rear swaybar- the alta 22mm bar is fine in the medium or soft setting to start. Won't help with regular street driving but will help keep handling more neutral with hard cornering.
2. Lowering springs- if you want to keep a more stock look and maintain a smooth ride then consider Alta springs or Eibach pro. One of the guys at Outmotoring.com has the Alta springs and likes it.
3. Lightweight wheels with non-runflat tires- This will yield a big improvement in performance and ride quality but you will loose the stock look unless you keep your heavy stock rims especially if you have the S-lytes that weigh 25 pounds each. The 16" X-lytes are not as bad so if you really have to be stock looking then get a set of used 16x6.5 X-lytes and put some Falken Azenis Sport tires on them. They are cheaper, sticky, and light. They won't last quite as long but they will be fun. As an example if you have the stock 17" S-lytes and Pirellis each wheel weighs in at 48 pounds. A stock 15" 7 hole rim and Continental 175/65-15 tire set up weighs 26 pounds each. A light 15" rim can weigh as little as 9 to 12 pounds while the tire is under 20.
>>The goal, ultimately, is to have a nice street car that looks stock (apart from the exhaust), but can give other cars a run for their money, and impress me in the turns. I definitely value handling over pure top speed and horsepower, but I'll settle for some more torque. :smile:
If you value handling, what suspension upgrades do you already have? I'd say with your current mods you have enough torque.
>>So in list form, these are what's next! Any suggestions to change this order?
>>
>>1) Alta rear sway bar 22mm
>>2) New tires (after runflats wear out)
>>3) New wheels (after runflats wear out)
>>4) Nology wires, better sparkplugs, etc.
>>
>>Anything else I'm missing? I do like the look of a lowered mini, and may go with some lowering springs eventually, but I'll wait till new tires and wheels are put in.
Rear swaybar is much less than wheels. $220 plus labor one hour. It's adjustable so you can try out different settings. Changing wheels before springs is fine.
If you want the nicest stock look in rims I'd consider the R90 16" rims or as a compromise the 16" X-lytes.
Both the 17" R90 and S-lytes are heavy and won't help performance.
Things to skip for now-
All ignition upgrades. Not much to gain in real world use although it does look nice. Save your money for wheels.
Tower strut brace-you don't need it but it does look nice.
Rear adjustable control arms- good only if you have to adjust rear negative camber. Useful for autocross.
Exhaust header-you already have the Borla Sport/Race so that will do. Headers are expensive for a small gain.
Throttlebody-Unless you get a larger intercooler or 19% pulley you don't need the 63mm TB. Too expensive.
Larger intercooler- maybe later but work on wheels and suspension first
Other things to consider-
Driving school-much to learn and too little time to do it. Highly recommended.Whalen shift ****- Heavy 18 ounce **** with positive shifting. Feels nice but does cost over $130
http://www.whalenshiftmachine.com/home.htm
Helix short shifter- inexpensive $40 part and about $80 to install for labor. Very nice feel and doesn't change shift **** height. Highly recommended.
Brake upgrade- at least less dusty brake pads like the Mintex Redbox and better brake fluid like the ATE superblue.
Brake dust is very bad on the rims and looks dirty. The better brake fluid will resist boiling and brake fade with hard use on the track or in autocross. Rotors are more expensive and will help with stopping power but not required- consider Powerslot or EBC slotted/Dimpled. Drilled rotors are cheaper but may crack with use.
Have fun. You're off to a good start.
You're doing great already.
>>So I've got a pretty quick car.. I've been bitten by the modding bug, and I just want to keep going! I currently have an Alta CAI and pulley, Webb/Powerchips ECU, and a Borla Sport exhaust.
With this setup you have you don't need to do anything else powerwise. You have the big bang items already and anything more will cost lots of $$ and the gains will be small. Hardly worth the effort unless you race autocross or on the track.
>>I'm thinking about getting a rear sway bar as the next big ticket purchase, but am wondering what you all think. Should that be my next upgrade after what I've already done? Or should I continue to improve the engine and its breathing?
Better than any engine upgrades I would be looking at suspension and wheels.
1. Rear swaybar- the alta 22mm bar is fine in the medium or soft setting to start. Won't help with regular street driving but will help keep handling more neutral with hard cornering.
2. Lowering springs- if you want to keep a more stock look and maintain a smooth ride then consider Alta springs or Eibach pro. One of the guys at Outmotoring.com has the Alta springs and likes it.
3. Lightweight wheels with non-runflat tires- This will yield a big improvement in performance and ride quality but you will loose the stock look unless you keep your heavy stock rims especially if you have the S-lytes that weigh 25 pounds each. The 16" X-lytes are not as bad so if you really have to be stock looking then get a set of used 16x6.5 X-lytes and put some Falken Azenis Sport tires on them. They are cheaper, sticky, and light. They won't last quite as long but they will be fun. As an example if you have the stock 17" S-lytes and Pirellis each wheel weighs in at 48 pounds. A stock 15" 7 hole rim and Continental 175/65-15 tire set up weighs 26 pounds each. A light 15" rim can weigh as little as 9 to 12 pounds while the tire is under 20.
>>The goal, ultimately, is to have a nice street car that looks stock (apart from the exhaust), but can give other cars a run for their money, and impress me in the turns. I definitely value handling over pure top speed and horsepower, but I'll settle for some more torque. :smile:
If you value handling, what suspension upgrades do you already have? I'd say with your current mods you have enough torque.
>>So in list form, these are what's next! Any suggestions to change this order?
>>
>>1) Alta rear sway bar 22mm
>>2) New tires (after runflats wear out)
>>3) New wheels (after runflats wear out)
>>4) Nology wires, better sparkplugs, etc.
>>
>>Anything else I'm missing? I do like the look of a lowered mini, and may go with some lowering springs eventually, but I'll wait till new tires and wheels are put in.
Rear swaybar is much less than wheels. $220 plus labor one hour. It's adjustable so you can try out different settings. Changing wheels before springs is fine.
If you want the nicest stock look in rims I'd consider the R90 16" rims or as a compromise the 16" X-lytes.
Both the 17" R90 and S-lytes are heavy and won't help performance.
Things to skip for now-
All ignition upgrades. Not much to gain in real world use although it does look nice. Save your money for wheels.
Tower strut brace-you don't need it but it does look nice.
Rear adjustable control arms- good only if you have to adjust rear negative camber. Useful for autocross.
Exhaust header-you already have the Borla Sport/Race so that will do. Headers are expensive for a small gain.
Throttlebody-Unless you get a larger intercooler or 19% pulley you don't need the 63mm TB. Too expensive.
Larger intercooler- maybe later but work on wheels and suspension first
Other things to consider-
Driving school-much to learn and too little time to do it. Highly recommended.Whalen shift ****- Heavy 18 ounce **** with positive shifting. Feels nice but does cost over $130
http://www.whalenshiftmachine.com/home.htm
Helix short shifter- inexpensive $40 part and about $80 to install for labor. Very nice feel and doesn't change shift **** height. Highly recommended.
Brake upgrade- at least less dusty brake pads like the Mintex Redbox and better brake fluid like the ATE superblue.
Brake dust is very bad on the rims and looks dirty. The better brake fluid will resist boiling and brake fade with hard use on the track or in autocross. Rotors are more expensive and will help with stopping power but not required- consider Powerslot or EBC slotted/Dimpled. Drilled rotors are cheaper but may crack with use.
Have fun. You're off to a good start.
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5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,057
Likes: 0
It's interesting to consider the different modding philosophies, power first or handling first.
I'm in the handling first department. My first mod for my 03 MCS was the Alta 22mm rear sway bar, which I keep on the stiffest setting. It completely transformed the car from a mild-moderate understeer (with Dunlop SP5000 in 195/55-16) to completely neutral and utterly tossable. The ability to throttle steer the car through fast tight curves has dramatically improved.
Next I ditched the runflats and put on Goodyear F1s, in the somewhat unusual size of 205/55 on my stock 16" V-spokes.
Another vast improvement! These tyres are fantastic, with amazing grip in the dry, and even more amazing performance in the wet.
Now I feel like the car handles to the point where I could put more power down on the asphalt properly, but I'm still debating whether I should go with power mods first or brake improvements.
I agree with others, that one of the best improvement investments is a driving school. After that, my vote goes to sway bar and rubber. Since you already have the power mods, I would recommend sway bar next and then rubber / tyres.
M.
_________________
I'm in the handling first department. My first mod for my 03 MCS was the Alta 22mm rear sway bar, which I keep on the stiffest setting. It completely transformed the car from a mild-moderate understeer (with Dunlop SP5000 in 195/55-16) to completely neutral and utterly tossable. The ability to throttle steer the car through fast tight curves has dramatically improved.
Next I ditched the runflats and put on Goodyear F1s, in the somewhat unusual size of 205/55 on my stock 16" V-spokes.
Another vast improvement! These tyres are fantastic, with amazing grip in the dry, and even more amazing performance in the wet.
Now I feel like the car handles to the point where I could put more power down on the asphalt properly, but I'm still debating whether I should go with power mods first or brake improvements.
I agree with others, that one of the best improvement investments is a driving school. After that, my vote goes to sway bar and rubber. Since you already have the power mods, I would recommend sway bar next and then rubber / tyres.
M.
_________________
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,057
Likes: 0
>>I have the Alta sway bar, set on stiff and it make a big difference. I love my B&M shifter and I highly recommend it.
>>
>>MG-BGT I too have F1's... what air pressure do you run??
the Goodyear dealer recommended 32, but I found that to be too low, and the edges were wearing a little too much. I then tried 34,35 and 36, and I prefer 35 on all four corners. Keep in mind though that I have higher side walls with a 55 profile on 16" rims!
What size are your tyres, and what pressure do your run ?
>>
>>MG-BGT I too have F1's... what air pressure do you run??
the Goodyear dealer recommended 32, but I found that to be too low, and the edges were wearing a little too much. I then tried 34,35 and 36, and I prefer 35 on all four corners. Keep in mind though that I have higher side walls with a 55 profile on 16" rims!
What size are your tyres, and what pressure do your run ?
4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
From: Dublin, NH
you sound like you are on the right track. So far I've done the 15% pulley and the K&N typhoon intake. The very first mod was the pulley and then budget hits came so I couldn't do much else. Then I needed to replace the paper filter so I replaced it with a K&N intake. Now I've found some extra work so cash flow is a little better and I plan on doing the following: (in order)
New brakes (can't decide on SS Lines or just the rotor/pads)
New wheels/tires (SSR Competition 17"/yokohama AS100)
Borla Race exhaust
Rear Swaybar
Then whenever Helix finishes their ECU (they are working together with GIAC) I'm gonna compare them and get one. Though with the lighter wheels it's not going to be as big of a concern. I'd skip the wires (and most electrical upgrades) unless you have a real urge to spend more money or are doing serious racing and need every last bit. Strut brace is a heated debate but again, if you don't race seriously I wouldn't even consider it. If you do, do a search and read the arguments and then make your decision.
The helix short shifter also sounds like a good idea and I might throw that into the mix somewhere. You'll be suprised the difference the wheels make.
-Chris
New brakes (can't decide on SS Lines or just the rotor/pads)
New wheels/tires (SSR Competition 17"/yokohama AS100)
Borla Race exhaust
Rear Swaybar
Then whenever Helix finishes their ECU (they are working together with GIAC) I'm gonna compare them and get one. Though with the lighter wheels it's not going to be as big of a concern. I'd skip the wires (and most electrical upgrades) unless you have a real urge to spend more money or are doing serious racing and need every last bit. Strut brace is a heated debate but again, if you don't race seriously I wouldn't even consider it. If you do, do a search and read the arguments and then make your decision.
The helix short shifter also sounds like a good idea and I might throw that into the mix somewhere. You'll be suprised the difference the wheels make.
-Chris
3rd Gear
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
MG-BGT
33 albs all around.. on 17" wheels. I am going to increase to 35 and drop down if needed. Sidewalls feel really soft compared to run-falts so increased pressure should help a little.
thanks and sorry for getting off track on the thread.
33 albs all around.. on 17" wheels. I am going to increase to 35 and drop down if needed. Sidewalls feel really soft compared to run-falts so increased pressure should help a little.
thanks and sorry for getting off track on the thread.
OVERDRIVE - Racing Champion
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,262
Likes: 72
From: Mililani, Hawaii
Daytona,
Some suggestions.
>>you sound like you are on the right track. So far I've done...I plan on doing the following: (in order)
>>New brakes (can't decide on SS Lines or just the rotor/pads)
Most times you do not "need" to upgrade to SS brake lines and some think that it may make the brake pedal feel harder than stock which may not be an improvement. Pads are the minimum as the stock rotors themselves aren't that bad. In general stock MINI brakes are OK. But with hard use like being on the track your brake fluid might get really hot and boil so replacing the brake fluid with something that has a higher boiling point would be helpful to minimize brake fade.
>>New wheels/tires (SSR Competition 17"/yokohama AS100)
SSR Comps come in different diameters and widths with the bigger rims being heavier. lighter would be the SSR comp R but those are 16x6.5" no centercap or machined lip and more for autocross. Yokohama ES100s are good for the money and reasonable place to start. Tirerack.com has this combo. If you choose 215/45-17 tire size you should do OK because you have not lowered your MCS. Otherwise with lowered springs and the high shoulder of the ES100 tires there could be some rubbing of the tires in the wheelwells with a full load in the back seat. Then you might do better with the 215/40-17 tires but those have a slightly lower load rating overall (less chance for rubbing though).
>>Borla Race exhaust
Good choice for more power and it is loud. Helix13 can help you with that.
>>Rear Swaybar
Probably any 3 hole 22mm bar will be fine. Don't worry about the weight. Helix13 sells RDR.
Pick the soft or middle setting and adjust. It will be different for each driver and each suspension set up.
>>
>>Then whenever Helix finishes their ECU (they are working together with GIAC)
Do the ECU last after all is said and done. Then you can tune your ECU choice for your mods.
Some suggestions.
>>you sound like you are on the right track. So far I've done...I plan on doing the following: (in order)
>>New brakes (can't decide on SS Lines or just the rotor/pads)
Most times you do not "need" to upgrade to SS brake lines and some think that it may make the brake pedal feel harder than stock which may not be an improvement. Pads are the minimum as the stock rotors themselves aren't that bad. In general stock MINI brakes are OK. But with hard use like being on the track your brake fluid might get really hot and boil so replacing the brake fluid with something that has a higher boiling point would be helpful to minimize brake fade.
>>New wheels/tires (SSR Competition 17"/yokohama AS100)
SSR Comps come in different diameters and widths with the bigger rims being heavier. lighter would be the SSR comp R but those are 16x6.5" no centercap or machined lip and more for autocross. Yokohama ES100s are good for the money and reasonable place to start. Tirerack.com has this combo. If you choose 215/45-17 tire size you should do OK because you have not lowered your MCS. Otherwise with lowered springs and the high shoulder of the ES100 tires there could be some rubbing of the tires in the wheelwells with a full load in the back seat. Then you might do better with the 215/40-17 tires but those have a slightly lower load rating overall (less chance for rubbing though).
>>Borla Race exhaust
Good choice for more power and it is loud. Helix13 can help you with that.
>>Rear Swaybar
Probably any 3 hole 22mm bar will be fine. Don't worry about the weight. Helix13 sells RDR.
Pick the soft or middle setting and adjust. It will be different for each driver and each suspension set up.
>>
>>Then whenever Helix finishes their ECU (they are working together with GIAC)
Do the ECU last after all is said and done. Then you can tune your ECU choice for your mods.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,344
Likes: 0
From: Uniontown, PA
The only thing I'd change is the order of your planned mods. Since you already have the pulley, if your still using the oem plugs, I'd get one range colder. I'm using the Denso IK-22s. Then rear bar, then wheels & tires (when the runflats wear out).
Thread Starter
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3rd Gear
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
From: West LA
Thanks all for your helpful comments! I've decided to go ahead and start improving my suspension from all these comments. Since money is always an issue with all mods, I'm going to start cheap, and get a rear sway installed. However, I'll take your suggestion apexer, and install colder plugs since it's a cheaper investment that the rear sway. Oh, I do have a Whalen, but it wasn't on my list of modifications. It's just sorta an add on, since it was so easy to put in, I totally forgot about it. :smile:
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