The online configurator has been updated to allow the selection of the '09 Sport Package. What I find interesting is that it allows you to select the SP while also allowing you to select a mechanical LSD.

I though the DTC (inc in the SP) would not allow the addition of a mechanical LSD. Was that an incorrect assumption or could the configurator be incorrect?

Yeah, I know, I should call the dealer... 'Just wondering if anyone here knows the answer.

TIA.

 

I'm configuring an 09 to order too and am wondering if it's possible to have both or even desirable to have both.

I was under the impression that they both have the same function but accomplish the end goal differently.

Anyone want to chime in with their secret knowledge?

DTC+EDLC vs LSD?

 

I think its perfectly fine because you can disable the DTC and still have LSD

 

Bump!

Anyone else want to chime in?

I'm wondering if any JCW owners who have had DTC can comment on it's poor weather performance in contrast to an LSD?

Inquiring minds want to know!

 

My 2009 MCS has the LSD with the Sport package (on order). So Yes you can have both.

 

Confusing, huh? I had similar questions and asked a dealer. Here's the facts:

There are three modes: DSC mode, DTC mode, and ELSD mode. You can switch to one of these three modes while you're driving.

mode1) DSC mode is already standard on all new minis. It doesn't allow for any wheel slippage at all.

mode2) DTC is an alternate mode you can switch on for extremely slippery conditions. It works exactly the same as the standard DSC mode, but allows for a bit of wheel slippage so your wheels can grip on acceleration.

mode3) When you turn off both systems, you're still left with ELSD (electronic LSD). In function, it works just like a mechanical LSD, but uses brakes to manage wheelspin instead of a mechanical gear or clutch.


I'd say if you get the DTC/ELSD, then a mechanical LSD would be redundant. The mechanical LSD would do all the work, leaving the ELSD to just hang out and do nothing. Maybe you'd save on brakepads at least?

Also, from the dozen or so comments/reviews I've read, most people preferred the ELSD, and a couple griped that they liked the old mechanical ones better. In all cases the difference is so minor that comments tended to be "i think it's over/understeering more, but I can't tell for sure"... so they're likely pretty similar in function.

 

From the manual

"DTC is a traction-optimised version of DSC intended for use in special circumstances, such as roads covered by deep snow. Under these circumstances, the system ensures maximum forward traction, but a certain cost in terms of stability. Consequently, you must exercise suitable caution when driving under these conditions.

In the following exceptional situations it may be best to activate DTC for a short time:

- When driving uphill on snow-covered roads, in slush or on unploughed, snow-covered roads.
- If the car has to be rocked out of or started in deep snow or on a loose surface
- If snow chains are fitted

Activating DTC. Press the button; the inidicator lights for DTC in the display elements light up"

Copied from mini2.com

 

Do I even need the LSD?

 

They're totally redundant. It won't hurt anything to get both, but it's unnecessary. Personally, I'd get the electronic system, but there's sure to be some Luddites out there who tell you the old mechanical ones work better.

 

I guess I will stick with both. It is the commuter car and we do get snow in Germany so may as well keep the redundancies

 

my 01 turbo jetta has EDL electronic differential lock which locks differential only at lo speeds, also ASR automatic slip regulation, uses anti-lock brake system applying brakes to keep wheel speed even, YUK it applies brake force but can be turned off, my quaife LSD always works locking both front wheels or giving most power to wheel with most traction and uncoupling on turns of course, quaife is lifetime warranted even when raced, its a fully mechanical geared unit, the BEST $$$$$$ i spent on the car NO torque steer at 285 ft lbs on the gas and 25 lb boost WORTH EVERY $$$$$$$$$

 

Thanks for all of the information everybody!

 

My understanding is as follows. I can't promise that it is correct, but hey, this is the internet.

DSC: This is activated when the car is drifting. It uses yaw sensors, and wheel rotation to determine that the car is not going in the direction that front wheels are pointed. When a drift is sensed, it uses braking of individual wheels to attempt to rotate the car into the direction the wheels point. This doesn't have anything to do with putting power to the ground when accelerating on slick surfaces. Its entire purpose is to help the driver maintain control of the car.

DTC: Designed to put power to the ground with minimal wheel spin. The JCW MINI was the first model to get DTC, possibly because LSD was not available for this model. DTC monitors the wheel rotation of the drive wheels, and possibly the steering angle, to sense wheel spin on acceleration. When it senses wheel spin, it applies the brake to the spinning wheel enough to bring it inline with the rotation speed of the other wheel.

LSD: A mechanical method of transferring a certain % power of a spinning wheel to the non-spinning wheel. No computer involved. LSD can be overcome because it may not be able to transfer enough power to the other wheel. It helps considerably, but wont entirely eliminate wheel spin on acceleration.

ASC: A system used in 2007 & 2008 MINIs to reduce drive wheel spin on acceleration. It cuts engine power when it senses wheel spin.

Dealer information: My experience has been that dealers don't always have the correct information on technical issues, and usually learn about new things long after they have been thoroughly discussed on NAM.

I suspect that LSD would be compatible with DTC, and simply delay the involvement of DTC until the LSD abilities were overwhelmed.

 

The use of a limited slip diff is to manage power distribution to prevent wheelspin when one driven wheel has less traction than the other driven wheel, most commonly when the car is under acceleration in either a high speed turn, or under varying road conditions. A limited slip diff doesn't do anything when coasting through a turn. Nor can it really help with straight-line acceleration because wheelspin in this condition is caused by excessive power, not imbalanced traction.

I usually recommend not buying the limited slip diff unless the car will be driven in serious autocross events, although a case could be made for snow and mud driving conditions, too.

Since they both control wheel spin, DTC/DSC both could replace the LSD with equal results under most driving conditions. However, since DTC/DSC use brakes to control wheelspin, while the LSD manages power output, they aren't mutually exclusive. The time when you'll see the biggest difference is during sporting conditions, where a LSD allows for better application of engine power under large weight-shift conditions (aka really tight, fast turns). Also, if you're trying to do a lap as fast as possible, the last thing you need is an automatic system that keeps applying the brakes every time a drive wheel starts to spin when you're trying to accelerate. However, if you're driving that hard on a public road, fire/rescue crews consider you a organ donor waiting to happen.

Like most things in a car, it depends on what you want to do with it that determines what works and what doesn't.

 

Robin:

Yep, that's pretty much it. To make things even clearer: ASC and DSC are two different names the same thing. And really, DSC already has DTC... it's just a very aggressive DTC that doesn't work too well in the snow.

Here's what they should have called the three modes:

1) Aggressive DSC
2) Moderate DSC
and
3) DSC off, LSD still on

That's what the modes actually do, and their naming just confuses the hell out of people.

 

I only have DSC on my 2008 MINI S, and I turn it Off and the Sport On everyday I start my vehicle. With an Automatic Transmission, Sport Off just kills the car, IMHO. DSC just kills the fun out of cornerning.

However, in inclement weather conditions (Heavy Rain) or Road Conditions (Gravel), the DSC gets turned on. It is an incredible safety feature to have as I have not managed to slide when turning hard on a gravel road. When it is off, it slides like a clumsy child on buttered glass.

If you have loved ones who aren't particularly skilled in the ways of motorsports (don't know what to do when the car started sliding), it is a valuable feature to have. It has saved my MINI from the wife once, so it has paid for itself.

 

You drive around constantly in sport mode with an auto? Your gas mileage must stink unless you also use the manual mode all the time too.

 

I noticed that the LSD is not even pictured on the JCW configurator page. Before that, the LSD option was there but not selectable with a footnote stating that the LSD was not available.

I'm wondering if Mini USA just forgot about the LSD when they updated the sport package page in the Cooper S.

 

Uh no, they are entirely different. ASC cuts power to the drive wheels under acceleration when it senses wheel spin. It doesn't seem to be listed on the Configurator for 2009. It came standard on all 2007 and 2008 MINIs.

DSC applies braking to individual wheels when it senses that the car is out of control. This is done to try and rotate the drifing car back into the direction the front wheels are pointing.

DTC is a more sophisticated form of ASC. Instead of simply cutting engine power, it applies braking to the drive wheel that is spinning.

People confuse the two because on 2007 & 2008 MINIs, they are controlled by the same button. Turn off ASC and you are turning off DSC.

 

The JCW comes with a more robust transmission than the S. I suspect that MINI didn't want to build an LSD just for the JCW because of low production numbers.

The Sport Package has DTC, which MINI seems to consider an electronic replacement of LSD. So, not surprising that they don't have both DTC and LSD in the Sport Package. LSD is still available as an option in the Configurator for the S.

 

That's too bad if MINI thinks the electronic DTC should replace the limited slip diff (sorry, can't call it LSD) in the JCW. Given the high performance intent of the the JCW, installing a system that cuts power output (instead of increasing the efficiency of how power is applied to the road) seems counterproductive.

 

Um, yes.

I think one drive in the snow would clear up the confusion. As I understand it:

Mode 1: full DSC. (ABS, CBC, and ASC+T systems all active) This will cut power through individual braking, or in extreme conditions by reducing throttle directly. It'll let you get close to the traction limit, but will not let you go over.

Mode 2: full DSC that also allows for partial wheel slip. (ABS, CBC, and ASC+T systems all active) This also will cut power through indivudual braking, or in extreme conditions by cutting throttle directly. The difference here is that the computer now will let you go a bit past the traction limit before it intervenes.

An example of this would be driving in the snow. In this mode, you will slip a bit on braking, cornering and acceleration, but if you go in to an uncontrollable skid, the DSC system will kick in. So it's not as much off as it is just laying off a little. Make sense?

Mode 3: DSC off mode. (ABS active, Traction control active in the limited form of eLSD) Engine will never cut throttle; only automatic bramking that will happen are braking for ABS, and braking for eLSD.

In this case, the car works just like a mid-90's car with ABS and LSD. The eLSD will do its best to even out power distribution to the wheels, but you can absolutely overpower both wheels to initiate a skid. ABS will only kick in if the wheels go full lock, and there is no stability control whatsoever.

 

Surfacenormal,

Do you have a sourse for that information?

Are you talking about the button modes, or the actual functions of the different systems? DSC is a separate function from the traction control functions, but both are accessed through one button.

 

This info is based on BMW's DSC/DTC system that's been around for 5 years or so.

Also, here's a link briefly describing how Mini's "DTC" mode works.
http://www.mini2.com/category/john-cooper-works/

Also here's a super helpful youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncE-Vk7egRo

On the BMW E60, for example, the iDrive says "DTC Activated, DSC Limited" when you press the DTC button. That's accurate description of what's going on, where Mini doesn't explain it as well.

As far as BMW/Mini goes, DSC is the overall system. ABS, DTC, eLSD..... they're all subsets of that system. For other manufacturers, they might mix up terms, or use them in different ways.

What cheeses me off is that all the hardware is already there to give all minis DTC/eLSD. It's just a software change to the DSC chip itself and they charge you a couple hundred bucks for it. D:

 

A lot of this stuff has been discussed already (many times) in other threads, with people arguing over what each system does, if system X is equivalent to system Y, etc.

What made my 'to LSD or not to LSD' decision very easy was that the mechanical LSD is a much more complicated system than a traditional differential. More parts leads to more chances for problems, which also leads to a higher repair bill.

If there is an electronic option that accomplishes the same effect (or very near the same effect) without introducing a mechanically complex system, I'll go with that one.