H Stock Best “H-Stock” 2013 MINI Cooper New Car Build Options?
#76
10-06-2012, 03:56 PM
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#77
10-06-2012, 04:21 PM
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I remember GM posting several myth-buster test results over recent years. For the wheel weight test, I think they said they used the heaviest wheel they could get. I don't remember it being quicker than the light-weight wheel though; I thought they reported no significant difference in times. What issue was that anyway? I think I still have it somewhere.
#78
10-06-2012, 04:37 PM
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#79
10-06-2012, 07:27 PM
Here is the car and driver test and results:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...d-tires-tested
0 - 60 suffered by 0.3 sec
However, traction (skid pad) went up as the tire size went up, to a point.
It is all a trade-off...in this case acceleration for cornering. I guess it would depend on the course which would be best.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...d-tires-tested
0 - 60 suffered by 0.3 sec
However, traction (skid pad) went up as the tire size went up, to a point.
It is all a trade-off...in this case acceleration for cornering. I guess it would depend on the course which would be best.
#80
10-12-2012, 03:14 PM
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Update on wheel weight effects in autocross.
I found the Grassroots Motorsports issue (June, 2011; pages 123-128) that tested autocross times with lighter and heavier wheels (and also wider versus narrower tires). The car was their Mazda Miata (MX-5) autocross project car running in SCCA STR. Tires were Dunlop Star Specs; wheels were 17X9" Enkei RPF1 (15.9# each) and 17X9" TRMotorsports C3 (19.6# each). That's a 3.7# difference at each corner. Both drivers thought they were quicker on the lighter-weight wheels, but the data acquisition system said otherwise; 53.56 seconds on the heavier wheels versus 53.65 seconds on the lighter wheels. Subsequent dyno test results were consistent with the small difference in times. The Mazda turned 142.62 hp with the heavier wheels, and 141.72 hp with the lighter wheels.
The other test was on the Star Spec tire size; wider (255/40/17) versus narrower (245/40/17). Note that the narrower tire was also .3" smaller in diameter, and weighed 1.6# less). It also beat the wider tire's time by .52 seconds (53.13 versus 53.65).
So miata_racer's initial statement (Post #76 above) was correct. And using test results apparently beats using rules of thumb. It probably wouldn't help to carry this heavy wheel and narrow tire thing too far, however.
I found the Grassroots Motorsports issue (June, 2011; pages 123-128) that tested autocross times with lighter and heavier wheels (and also wider versus narrower tires). The car was their Mazda Miata (MX-5) autocross project car running in SCCA STR. Tires were Dunlop Star Specs; wheels were 17X9" Enkei RPF1 (15.9# each) and 17X9" TRMotorsports C3 (19.6# each). That's a 3.7# difference at each corner. Both drivers thought they were quicker on the lighter-weight wheels, but the data acquisition system said otherwise; 53.56 seconds on the heavier wheels versus 53.65 seconds on the lighter wheels. Subsequent dyno test results were consistent with the small difference in times. The Mazda turned 142.62 hp with the heavier wheels, and 141.72 hp with the lighter wheels.
The other test was on the Star Spec tire size; wider (255/40/17) versus narrower (245/40/17). Note that the narrower tire was also .3" smaller in diameter, and weighed 1.6# less). It also beat the wider tire's time by .52 seconds (53.13 versus 53.65).
So miata_racer's initial statement (Post #76 above) was correct. And using test results apparently beats using rules of thumb. It probably wouldn't help to carry this heavy wheel and narrow tire thing too far, however.
Last edited by Jim Michaels; 10-14-2012 at 09:49 AM.
#81
10-12-2012, 04:02 PM
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#82
10-12-2012, 06:01 PM
Hmmmm...
Car & Driver says speeds go down with increased weight and traction goes up with increased tire width. Grassroots says that speeds improves with added weight and traction goes down with increased tire size.
Pure physics would side with the Car & Driver, as would just about every autocrosser out there.
So who is going start running their car with heaver wheels and narrower tires?
Car & Driver says speeds go down with increased weight and traction goes up with increased tire width. Grassroots says that speeds improves with added weight and traction goes down with increased tire size.
Pure physics would side with the Car & Driver, as would just about every autocrosser out there.
So who is going start running their car with heaver wheels and narrower tires?
#83
10-12-2012, 07:35 PM
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I'm not sure that Grassroots would want to generalize their findings beyond their car, those wheels, and those two tire sizes of Star Specs. In fact, I think they subsequently ran the lighter wheel, but with the narrower tire. The wheel weights and tire sizes didn't differ by a lot in this case, so, as I said above, it probably wouldn't help to carry this heavy wheel and narrow tire thing too far.
What Grassroots might say: What seems to work best in general isn't always what works best in a specific application, so testing different options sometimes pays surprising dividends.
What Grassroots might say: What seems to work best in general isn't always what works best in a specific application, so testing different options sometimes pays surprising dividends.
#84
10-12-2012, 07:57 PM
Is it possible that the section width at 255 was just too large for the car? Car & Driver found that as section width went up, the skid pad traction went up, but after a point it actually decreased. That maybe where Grassroots was at with the larger tire - just guessing. In the Car & Driver test the aspect ratio went down with the increased width, so not quite a one-for-one with Grassroots but a data point for comparison.
With the MINI, which is basically stock, if you start from a known good point (factory specs) and go +1 on wheels and tires and go with a lot lighter wheel, my bet would be that you will be faster not slower.
With the MINI, which is basically stock, if you start from a known good point (factory specs) and go +1 on wheels and tires and go with a lot lighter wheel, my bet would be that you will be faster not slower.
#85
10-14-2012, 09:45 AM
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Eddie: I'm convinced that there's a point where additional street tire width no longer provides additional lateral grip for a specific wheel width. But according to Tire Rack, the 255/40/17 tire size is molded for the 9" wheel width that GR used, while the 245/40/17 tire size is molded for a 8.5" wheel. Thus, I don't think the wider tire would be pinched in on those wheels, so lateral contact patch shouldn't be compromised.
From what little I know, that would seem to leave at least three other variables as the likely suspects in the better times of the narrower tire; its slightly shorter sidewall, its slightly lower weight (tire weight should make more difference than wheel weight because it's farther from the axis of rotation), and its slightly greater longitudinal (as opposed to lateral) contact patch (which might help some in acceleration and braking).
But GR also provided information on another suspect; where the rubber meets the road, the 245/40/17 tire is only slightly narrower than the 255/40/17 tire. In the photo they show, the actual tire width difference seems to be no more than 5 mm, and maybe even a bit less. Thus, that little reduction in tire width might be outweighed by the shorter sidewall and lower weight of the narrower tire.
From what little I know, that would seem to leave at least three other variables as the likely suspects in the better times of the narrower tire; its slightly shorter sidewall, its slightly lower weight (tire weight should make more difference than wheel weight because it's farther from the axis of rotation), and its slightly greater longitudinal (as opposed to lateral) contact patch (which might help some in acceleration and braking).
But GR also provided information on another suspect; where the rubber meets the road, the 245/40/17 tire is only slightly narrower than the 255/40/17 tire. In the photo they show, the actual tire width difference seems to be no more than 5 mm, and maybe even a bit less. Thus, that little reduction in tire width might be outweighed by the shorter sidewall and lower weight of the narrower tire.
#86
10-14-2012, 08:58 PM
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The talk and odd test results posted of heavier wheels being faster is puzzling.
Yeah, maybe a couple lbs. may not be much, but you won't see me trading in some Magnesium (Mg, #12) wheels for some Lead (Pb, #82) specials! 
Yup, don't carry those test results too far; no more than a couple lbs. at best.
#87
10-23-2012, 10:53 PM
After a couple of track days, I'm not sure how well EDLC does its job compared to the mechanical LSD. I could provoke plenty of wheelspin with DTC off, I'm not sure if it was one or 2 wheels. I seemed to get more wheel spin than in the S with the LSD. That maybe because of the extra power.
#88
10-24-2012, 05:36 PM
After a couple of track days, I'm not sure how well EDLC does its job compared to the mechanical LSD. I could provoke plenty of wheelspin with DTC off, I'm not sure if it was one or 2 wheels. I seemed to get more wheel spin than in the S with the LSD. That maybe because of the extra power.
#89
01-18-2014, 09:33 PM
Okay, back to the 2013 AutoX build and/or 2012 retrofit in my case…
Most seem to agree that the DTC and at least Sport Suspension (SS) are must haves at original order (comfort equip to taste). I lean to paying the extra $1,000 over the SS for the JCW Red Spring Suspension option to get the stiffer front and rear anti-sway bars, ½” lower and stiffer balanced springs with better tuned shocks right from the start (you can always change the shocks out if you must, but you will have the Red springs and larger sway bars to start with). That way you only have to add light rims and R-Comp tires, a free flowing air cleaner and possibly something like the Hawk HP Plus brake pads (I noted the Carbotech AX6 pads specifically state NOT to use them with R-Comp tires).
After the order and/or 2012 retro-fit add-ons and equipment look like this for me right now:
- Bell Sport Mag open face helmet (seems like a good choice)
- Kosei KR4 16x6.5 ET45 4-100 wheels weighing in at 12.8lbs.
- Kumho Ecsta V710 215/40R16 tires weighing in at 18lbs. (51 max. psi/22.6” dia.)
- Hotchkis Competition light weight hollow rear anti-sway bar #22810R (+226%, 294% & 383%)
- K&N air cleaner
- Hawk HP Plus brake pads (still my daily driver)
- Muffler delete only straight pipe (homemade)
That puts me at about $2,200 initial investment to get out there and have some fun with my Justa H-Stock. Of course you can go SSR Type-C ET42 15x5.5 at only 9.6lbs. with 19lb. Hoho’s for another grand, but for the beginner I’d rather save the grand while gaining experience the first year. Plus, if you want to upgrade to a new JCW Hardtop model down the road you already have your qualifying light weight wheels.
NOTE: SSR Type-F are available in 16x6.5 ET45 4-100 weighing in at 11.2lbs. for a cool $445 retail (~$375 each shopped) if you must cut that extra 1.6lbs. off a 16” if you have a Cooper S. That’s about 2.5 times the price of the KR4’s. It’s always nice to have a big wallet.
Other things on the future wish list are (another ~$2,200+):
- Schroth Quickfit mini racing harness for R56
- Full CatBack custom or out-of-the-box exhaust system
- Koni yellow adjustable sport shocks (2012 retro-fit or if no JCW ordered originally)
- JCW Red springs (2012 retro-fit or if no JCW ordered originally)
- DTC eLSD option upgrade (2012 retro-fit)
That’s where I am currently. Feel free to slice and dice as you see fit. Experienced players advice is well heeded by this novice.
One quick Cooper S stock class question (even though this is a H-Stock thread):
Are all JCW option fair game for the Cooper S stock class? It looks like JCW now comes with the JCW tune and 208hp.
Nicely done video from one of the players last weekend at El Toro (like the way this software shows the track):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDYSz78-LAU
Most seem to agree that the DTC and at least Sport Suspension (SS) are must haves at original order (comfort equip to taste). I lean to paying the extra $1,000 over the SS for the JCW Red Spring Suspension option to get the stiffer front and rear anti-sway bars, ½” lower and stiffer balanced springs with better tuned shocks right from the start (you can always change the shocks out if you must, but you will have the Red springs and larger sway bars to start with). That way you only have to add light rims and R-Comp tires, a free flowing air cleaner and possibly something like the Hawk HP Plus brake pads (I noted the Carbotech AX6 pads specifically state NOT to use them with R-Comp tires).
After the order and/or 2012 retro-fit add-ons and equipment look like this for me right now:
- Bell Sport Mag open face helmet (seems like a good choice)
- Kosei KR4 16x6.5 ET45 4-100 wheels weighing in at 12.8lbs.
- Kumho Ecsta V710 215/40R16 tires weighing in at 18lbs. (51 max. psi/22.6” dia.)
- Hotchkis Competition light weight hollow rear anti-sway bar #22810R (+226%, 294% & 383%)
- K&N air cleaner
- Hawk HP Plus brake pads (still my daily driver)
- Muffler delete only straight pipe (homemade)
That puts me at about $2,200 initial investment to get out there and have some fun with my Justa H-Stock. Of course you can go SSR Type-C ET42 15x5.5 at only 9.6lbs. with 19lb. Hoho’s for another grand, but for the beginner I’d rather save the grand while gaining experience the first year. Plus, if you want to upgrade to a new JCW Hardtop model down the road you already have your qualifying light weight wheels.
NOTE: SSR Type-F are available in 16x6.5 ET45 4-100 weighing in at 11.2lbs. for a cool $445 retail (~$375 each shopped) if you must cut that extra 1.6lbs. off a 16” if you have a Cooper S. That’s about 2.5 times the price of the KR4’s. It’s always nice to have a big wallet.
Other things on the future wish list are (another ~$2,200+):
- Schroth Quickfit mini racing harness for R56
- Full CatBack custom or out-of-the-box exhaust system
- Koni yellow adjustable sport shocks (2012 retro-fit or if no JCW ordered originally)
- JCW Red springs (2012 retro-fit or if no JCW ordered originally)
- DTC eLSD option upgrade (2012 retro-fit)
That’s where I am currently. Feel free to slice and dice as you see fit. Experienced players advice is well heeded by this novice.
One quick Cooper S stock class question (even though this is a H-Stock thread):
Are all JCW option fair game for the Cooper S stock class? It looks like JCW now comes with the JCW tune and 208hp.
Nicely done video from one of the players last weekend at El Toro (like the way this software shows the track):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDYSz78-LAU
a marked improvement over the 08 mini i had before that came with a sunroof though. i'm very happy i got the options i did, not really concerned about the extra few pounds.. the weight of the gas in the car when i get to an event has a higher deviation than the total amount of those creature comforts.
i personally went with the stock stock suspension though - since i know every part is gonna be swapped out. springs > jcw springs, fsb > jcw fsb, dampers > bilsteins, and rsb to hsport rsb. no point spending an extra 500 if it's all gonna be replaced anyway.
the biggest question for me was whether or not to get the elsd.. finally decided to go with it after consulting with a few forum members. i decided the theoretical torque vectoring should be good for something at least.
#90
01-18-2014, 10:55 PM
I also went through the exercise, with Bertie.
The go faster options I got were the sport suspension and the sport package,which includes sports seats, DTC and 17x7" wheels. With the change to H Street, the availability of the 17x7 wheels (which are an option independent of the sport package) it allows the use of 16x7" wheels on 2013s. They didn't seem to be an option on earlier cars (unless you got the JCW package on 2012s).
If EDLC is a hindrance as some people think, the Street rules allow it to be disabled. 13.9G allows traction control to be disabled. 12.12 would seem to define EDLC as traction control. It'd be interesting to test this sometime, how do you disable the EDLC?
13.9G "On cars without the ability to turn off electronic stability control and/ or traction control (ESC/TC) from the manufacturer, modifications to defeat the ESC/TC are permitted. These modification are limited to altering the inputs to the ESC/TC processor (e.g., removing fuses, unplugging yaw or steering angle sensors, altering signals) and may serve no other purpose. Any codes or error lights resulting from ESC/ TC modifications are permitted."
12.12 TRACTION/STABILITY CONTROL "A system that adjusts engine power, braking force, or torque distribution when wheelspin, understeer, or oversteer is detected or predicted."
The go faster options I got were the sport suspension and the sport package,which includes sports seats, DTC and 17x7" wheels. With the change to H Street, the availability of the 17x7 wheels (which are an option independent of the sport package) it allows the use of 16x7" wheels on 2013s. They didn't seem to be an option on earlier cars (unless you got the JCW package on 2012s).
If EDLC is a hindrance as some people think, the Street rules allow it to be disabled. 13.9G allows traction control to be disabled. 12.12 would seem to define EDLC as traction control. It'd be interesting to test this sometime, how do you disable the EDLC?
13.9G "On cars without the ability to turn off electronic stability control and/ or traction control (ESC/TC) from the manufacturer, modifications to defeat the ESC/TC are permitted. These modification are limited to altering the inputs to the ESC/TC processor (e.g., removing fuses, unplugging yaw or steering angle sensors, altering signals) and may serve no other purpose. Any codes or error lights resulting from ESC/ TC modifications are permitted."
12.12 TRACTION/STABILITY CONTROL "A system that adjusts engine power, braking force, or torque distribution when wheelspin, understeer, or oversteer is detected or predicted."
#91
01-18-2014, 11:02 PM
#92
01-19-2014, 07:21 AM
It seems that some times it is good to resurrect thread like this one. It can be a good way to evolve information.
Kyoo - the heated seats are the best I wouldn't be without them. Also, likely don't add weight as they already put pressure pads in the seats and the heating element weighs almost nothing.
Btwyx - that is an interesting point about being allowed to disable the DTC and the EDLC and whether anyone knows how to do that, especially for the EDLC. But from the way Charlie Thompson talks about his car, it doesn't seem that he has found that it interferes.
Kyoo - the heated seats are the best
I wouldn't be without them. Also, likely don't add weight as they already put pressure pads in the seats and the heating element weighs almost nothing.Btwyx - that is an interesting point about being allowed to disable the DTC and the EDLC and whether anyone knows how to do that, especially for the EDLC. But from the way Charlie Thompson talks about his car, it doesn't seem that he has found that it interferes.
Last edited by Eddie07S; 01-19-2014 at 07:33 AM. Reason: clarification
#93
01-19-2014, 08:19 AM
I also went through the exercise, with Bertie.
The go faster options I got were the sport suspension and the sport package,which includes sports seats, DTC and 17x7" wheels. With the change to H Street, the availability of the 17x7 wheels (which are an option independent of the sport package) it allows the use of 16x7" wheels on 2013s. They didn't seem to be an option on earlier cars (unless you got the JCW package on 2012s).
If EDLC is a hindrance as some people think, the Street rules allow it to be disabled. 13.9G allows traction control to be disabled. 12.12 would seem to define EDLC as traction control. It'd be interesting to test this sometime, how do you disable the EDLC?
13.9G "On cars without the ability to turn off electronic stability control and/ or traction control (ESC/TC) from the manufacturer, modifications to defeat the ESC/TC are permitted. These modification are limited to altering the inputs to the ESC/TC processor (e.g., removing fuses, unplugging yaw or steering angle sensors, altering signals) and may serve no other purpose. Any codes or error lights resulting from ESC/ TC modifications are permitted."
12.12 TRACTION/STABILITY CONTROL "A system that adjusts engine power, braking force, or torque distribution when wheelspin, understeer, or oversteer is detected or predicted."
The go faster options I got were the sport suspension and the sport package,which includes sports seats, DTC and 17x7" wheels. With the change to H Street, the availability of the 17x7 wheels (which are an option independent of the sport package) it allows the use of 16x7" wheels on 2013s. They didn't seem to be an option on earlier cars (unless you got the JCW package on 2012s).
If EDLC is a hindrance as some people think, the Street rules allow it to be disabled. 13.9G allows traction control to be disabled. 12.12 would seem to define EDLC as traction control. It'd be interesting to test this sometime, how do you disable the EDLC?
13.9G "On cars without the ability to turn off electronic stability control and/ or traction control (ESC/TC) from the manufacturer, modifications to defeat the ESC/TC are permitted. These modification are limited to altering the inputs to the ESC/TC processor (e.g., removing fuses, unplugging yaw or steering angle sensors, altering signals) and may serve no other purpose. Any codes or error lights resulting from ESC/ TC modifications are permitted."
12.12 TRACTION/STABILITY CONTROL "A system that adjusts engine power, braking force, or torque distribution when wheelspin, understeer, or oversteer is detected or predicted."
second, i thought they took back that stability control disabling rule - regardless, i don't know how to do it, and i'm not sure i even would. i doubt edlc is gonna be a hindrance, particularly on a decent surface. no matter whether i prefer a mechanical or not, braking the inner wheel should have the same effect. also, often times disabling this sort of system also disables the abs, which is definitely a nono
It seems that some times it is good to resurrect thread like this one. It can be a good way to evolve information.
Kyoo - the heated seats are the best I wouldn't be without them. Also, likely don't add weight as they already put pressure pads in the seats and the heating element weighs almost nothing.
Btwyx - that is an interesting point about being allowed to disable the DTC and the EDLC and whether anyone knows how to do that, especially for the EDLC. But from the way Charlie Thompson talks about his car, it doesn't seem that he has found that it interferes.
Kyoo - the heated seats are the best
I wouldn't be without them. Also, likely don't add weight as they already put pressure pads in the seats and the heating element weighs almost nothing.Btwyx - that is an interesting point about being allowed to disable the DTC and the EDLC and whether anyone knows how to do that, especially for the EDLC. But from the way Charlie Thompson talks about his car, it doesn't seem that he has found that it interferes.
#94
01-19-2014, 10:34 AM
second, i thought they took back that stability control disabling rule
yeah i love my heated seats.
#95
01-19-2014, 11:36 AM
Go ahead, rub it in. We're headed to sub zero again this week.
At least the ski areas will be able to make some decent snow to replace what was lost in the last two 50 deg rain storms we've had. The temp swings are the worst.
On, well - looking forward to your next track day adventure writeup to keep me going till spring.
#96
01-19-2014, 01:43 PM
On, well - looking forward to your next track day adventure writeup to keep me going till spring.
#97
01-19-2014, 06:09 PM
#99
01-19-2014, 07:56 PM
#100
01-19-2014, 08:04 PM
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