The rumors I've read/heard:

Pontiac and Buick are targets... Mercury as well... ...and apparently Saturn is on life-support.

Of course, both GM and Ford are denying everything, so who knows...

Planeguy you are bang on. Of the Big Three Chrysler has been the most innovative. Maybe because they had to be for their own survival. It reminds me of a friend of mine who is a dealer rep for Ford. He told me most of the cars in their plant employee parking lot are not Fords. How can a company hope to compete when their own employees (with factory discounts) won't buy their brand. I wonder how many MINI plant employees buy MINI. He gets a new car of his choice every three months. Last three months Ford made all the dealer reps drive a Freestyle to promote the brand. I wonder how well that worked? Actually I don't think his wife drives a Ford. Not to knock Ford but GM is probably in the same boat.

The last American car I bought was a Jeep in '93 - it was cheap and easy to maintain, perfect for a third car in Colorado. I've been in European or Japanese cars since then. That said, I have to admit that the new Mustang (especially the convertible) is a VERY well built car - solid, no squeaks, smooth, and tight. Ford has come out with a bunch of new cars/platforms that seem to be miles ahead of what GM is putting out - and this is coming from a long-time GM guy from the 70's. D/C is building some nice looking cars, but the tranny problems scare me - and the appetite for fuel on those Hemi beasties is scary!! I think the US automakers are slowly - SLOWLY - starting to close the gap, but I honestly think it's too little, too late. Time will tell. . .

It is a cross between a PT Cruiser and a Durango. The guy that designed the PT Cheddar designed the HHR.

this is more of an off-topic auto post...

i just saw this on CNN and remembered this thread...

http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/funonw...ool/index.html


do you think the HHR and the SSR are the introduction to these
50's styling? it might be, but they both still look like crapola, imho.
nothing really inspiring like the 50's cars.
(just my personal opinion, no offense intended).

YUP! I just saw several on the road over the last few days... BLECK!!!!! I wanted to wash my eyes out with soap.

And I'm sure right now on the HHR boards some dude just posted about my "Barbie car from hell".

American designers are busy answering questions that haven't been asked....imho If you want to build a station wagon then, do it....they've sold the SUV/truck designs so well to the general US buyer that now they're stuck on a follow up...since the car market has been lost to Japan, Inc.

While producing excellent cars, the Japanese produce designs which are practically indistinguishable from one another. Someone point out the design differences between an Accord, a Camry, a Lexus, etc....yes there are quality levels, but they ALL look 90% alike in shape, design detail, etc. Gawd, if it weren't for MINI I'd shoot myself...:impatient

I was looking at cars recently and after looking at BMW I decided to go over to the Lexus dealership. I know they are suppose to be great cars but my gosh they are dull. Every one of them looks like a Camry to me. I didn't even get out of my car and just drove right on out of the lot.

Well, to my mind, its undeniable that most auto makers are certainly struggling for a new visual vocabulary these days. MINI, PT, HHR, SSR, Ford GT, Beetle, Miata, lets not forget the T-Bird even though everybody else has, even the latest 911 all look to previous generations for their inspiration. The retro thing has yielded much better results than some of the modernist stuff (anything by BMW's Bangle-boy, the latest wierd curvy Benz stuff, the latest generation of Japanese cars, particularly the two box stuff like the Element and the xB). The retro failures have really had to do with the car underneath IMO. The T-Turd and the SSR in particular were performance disappointments and certainly a two seaters pickup truck isn't high on anyones praticality list. If the HHR fails it will probably be more down to its underpinnings than its looks which I'd agree with those who think its a complete PT ripoff. First one I saw, I thought it was a weird tuner version of the PT until I saw the Chevy badge and realized it wasa a new model.

IMO the most beautiful cars where built in the 50's and 60's. Wish MINI would do a mid-engined retro sports cab that swooped like a Jag D-type or a 250LM.

I don't think anything is taking on MINI right now in the US. I wonder if US automakers even have a clue why MINI is so great! Japanese cars are losing the script, too.....either getting too big, too boring, or styled so garishly as to be disturbing (Pruis, xA). BMW's are getting uglier, too. In fact, I don't think even MINIs would have been right if they had been created in a vacuum....we can thank a tragically rare drive to be true to overall preformance and styling of the classic MINI for that.

Oh and *ding*....5000 posts!!

In the family car segment you don't go out looking for cars that you like,
you're pretty much stuck looking for cars you don't hate.

You are right. No one is taking on MINI and I don't think any are all that envious of MINI.

As much as all of us grouse about the lack of style of most vehicles, boring is what sells. I think MINI has sold something like 175,000 vehicles WORLWIDE. In the US obviously MINI sales are substantially smaler.

Now compare to the below list of the top 20 selling vehicles in the US through September 2005. Look at the list and tell me what anyone would consider being a car with style or with any kind of style that would compete with the MINI.

Where the US car makers are losing their biggest market share is to the Japanese - Camry, Accord, Corrola, Civic, and Altima none of which has tons of style. The big problem seems to me to be that the US can't seem to break the Accord Camry and now Altima grip on the sedan market. Chrysler has gone the route of the Magnum but its a big gas eater and does not break the top 20. Pontiac seems to me making some kind of push with its new sedans but still I don't see them breaking into the top 20.

rjmann is right im my opinion, it comes down to underpinnings and identifying the needs and wants of the market. For that Camry Accord Altima group it seems to me that buyers are looking for durable quality, reasonable performance, functional design and cost less than $25K. Style is obviously not much of a factor.

As an aside, I look at the list and wonder why the Japanese can't seem to shake the dominance of the US in the biggest sellers - the pick up. I understand that Toyota, Nissan and now Honda all make very high quality trucks. So why are they so far behind in sales? Is it because the pickup market is entrenched in the "buy American" thinking? I have never owned a pickup and don't know much about it.

The numbers show 2005 sales/2004 sales for same period/2004 rank and percent change:

1 Ford F- series pickup 694,690 697,938 1 -0.5
2 Chevy Silverado-C/K pickup 570,278 526,911 2 +8.2
3 Toyota Camry 336,349 325,324 4 +3.4
4 Dodge Ram Pickup 318,812 328,929 3 -3.1
5 Honda Accord 292,398 297,645 5 -1.8
6 Toyota Corolla 265,426 254,189 7 +4.4
7 Honda Civic 233,838 241,180 9 -3.0
8 Nissan Altima 205,145 181,098 17 +13.3
9 Ford Explorer 196,878 260,030 6 -24.3
10 Chevrolet TrailBlazer 190,964 207,855 11 -8.1
11 GMC Sierra pickup 187,371 160,935 19 +16.4
12 Chevrolet Impala 182,279 219,452 10 -16.9
13 Dodge Caravan 179,307 185,375 13 -3.3
14 Cobalt 166,331 0 17 NA
15 Jeep Grand Cherokee 163,821 134,591 18 +21.7
16 Chevrolet Malibu 162,891 127,337 N/A +27.9
17 Ford Taurus 161,667 200,128 8 -19.2
18 Ford Focus 155,072 166,596 14 -6.9
19 Chrysler Town & Country 141,301 105,339 +34.1
20 Ford Econoline 135,801 130,943 N/A +3.7

Actually, if I recall correctly, I believe MINI passed 1/2 million sales this past summer.

I think your figure is all MINis from day 1 - mine is minis in 2005. I didn't make that clear.

I could be wrong

Ditto!!!

The HHR was part of out Car of the year testing this year for Motor Trend. We discovered a design problem that SHOULD be recalled.. but well see.

WHen the HHR is corning in our Figure 8 test. the Oli cap busted off. IT seams to he cuased by the flexing of the engine cover poped it right off. the oli cap sits on the engine cover.

so.. be carefull with ur hard corning in the HHR

Sadly, you're right. I guess the big nasty secret out there is that people....in general....are boring, middle-of-the-road, easily persuaded. Based on what I see day after day this is probably the case anthough we all hate to admit it or say it. When I see someone vacillate between a MINI and another lesser car it all too often is clear that they are really not MINI-worthy, but are in the broad middle when it comes to automotive choices.

Geez, perhaps this really should have gone into the politically incorrect thread ....or maybe the confession thread...or maybe the rant thread. Seriously, I have had at least four acquaintances shy away from a MINI for the most silly, ill-informed reasons.

First off let me say I LOVE my MCS! However, sometimes all the stuff just doesn't fit in it. I had a Chevy Astro AWD Van until just recently (suddenly it doesn't go into reverse). Off car shopping - fun until you have to sign papers and give them lots of money! This other car (Not my MCS) is shared with my husband. We had to agree on the new car. YUGG! Replacing an Astro van - hummm. I liked the dog-of-a Scion xB. NO guts, but, 30-34 mpg. Husband hated the looks and lack of power. We have both liked the looks of the PT Cruiser since it came on the scene. Something a little different than the standard small hatchback/wagons you see everwhere. I drove one shortly after they first arrived some time ago. I was very dissapointed in the lack of power and its very poor (for its size) gas mileage. So with a newly broken Astro lots of snow on the ground, and sub-zero temps off car shopping together we went last week. First the xB, he hated it. I liked the quirkey looks, possiblities for "youification" and quite good gas mileage. HHR, I wanted to take a look. We both have liked our Chevy vans in the past. I sat in it and didn't even want to test drive it! It is a plastic cave - yuck! Then off to drive a PT Cruiser (his choice). More spacious than the HHR with much nicer interior details. Base model, still a DOG with 19-26 mpg! Then I said we have to try a turbo PT. About the same mpg, but, has a little bit of funfactor. PT Cruiser GT High Output Turbo = premium gas. PT Cruiser Turbo Lite takes 87 octane, same mileage and can be upgraded to more hp than the stock GT with an aftermarket chip. We now own a black 2004 Platinum Series Limited Edition Turbo Lite PT Cruiser with the leather and chrome packages. I feel like such an adult when I drive it, smooth. Then when you put your foot to the metal it does move! Plus the back seats fold down, or tumble forward, or remove completely - with wheels no less to move them around in the garage! We hated the HHR. I'm beginning getting used to the Cruiser. It is certainally not the MINI, but, it holds lots of groceries, gardening supplies, and an occassional piece of furnature. With the 16" M&S tires it gets along pretty well here in the Wisconsin winter (I never did put the 15" all seasons back on the MINI). All and all not a bad "other" car, but, I have to admit I can't wait for good weather and clear roads so I can go motoring in my MINI S!!!

Very interesting thread to read.

Have you ever used a product, any product and asked yourself "did anyone at this company ever try to actually use this thing"? How many products do you have at home that you could make a minor change to and it would become instantly better, more usable, more valuable? I currently have an oil catch pan that every time I use it I am reminded that no intelligent person would have put this into production if anyone had ever tried to use it. And it would have not cost on penny to fix at the design phase.

Huge auto companies are like aircraft carriers... they don't change direction very well, but they usually survive better than little boats because ... well you see the comparison.

GM and others seem to want to make a 'compromise car' designed by a comittee that appeals to the largest volume of people. That sort of thinking usually produces an acceptable result but usually never a home run.

Unlike most people on NAM and other forums you may read, the typical American auto buyer doesn't have a clue about the cars on the lot or what they are plunking down their money for.

It looks cute or they like the color. Stop 100 people at the next red light and ask them mechanical or technical qustions about their car... simple stuff like, is your car FWD or RWD? Is this car a 4, 6, or 8 cyl? I'm sure the responses would be scary.

I wish the conceivers were car people. I wish the designers were car people. On and on, but my opinion is that most of these people are just people working their job. I'm guessing that a lot of designers have as much interest in the final product as I would designing a new cinder block. Get the job done and go home on time.

I worked as a field service installer and start up engineer for a company that made huge hazardous waste incinerators. My associates and I constantly fed information and changes back to the designers with ideas that would make the product better in every way. None of the designers ever saw the finished product. That model's design was fixed and in place and they were working on the next generation. They could be taken to a chemical plant and may be standing beside the product and not know it. None of the suggestions were ever considered or put into production because it meant a change, and change was bad.

Sorry for the rant.

YD

Yes the Pontiac Carreer Killer , All the engineers that designed it all got fired.

I think most of the engineers and designers at GM are "car people" but unfortunately not the accountants, bean counters, number crunchers, etc. So they make a lot of great concepts and throw around some really great ideas but in the end it comes down to trying to cut cost to stay profitable. So the concepts supe-high-tech interior becomes corporate standard switch-gear and the unique super powerful engine gets detuned so that it can be used in the next minivan and three other car chassis' and the complex suspension gets simplified to Machphereson struts since their cheaper to develope, install, and warranty. So in the end you wind up with an exceptional idea whittled down to an average execution. I think you're also right on in that many don't have a concept of what the completed package will be like. That's why some things, like poor control placement, bad seat design, and difficult to access engine parts go into production, I think it explains the MINI's cupholders!

cough cough...

I read that earlier Syd and thought of you!

With all the talk about no power, I'm glad someone mentioned the two turbo PT engines that have been available for years and take care of the power problem.