Winter driving: Getting used to it in the MINI (help!)
 

Hey everyone, I'm hoping I can pick the brains of some of you who are accustomed to winter driving in your MINI.

I live in Denver, and we've had a relatively mild winter this year. When I bought my MINI (details in the sig below) last August, the people I'd spoken with about it suggested that the car does well in winter conditions by and large, and I knew that if it was that bad, I'd simply drive my 4x4 SUV instead.

A week or two ago when we finally got a little snow, and again this morning (we got some rain last evening, which froze overnight), were my two and only experiences driving the car in non-perfect conditions. And both times, I found the experience mildly frightening. I want to explain why, and see if this makes any sense to those more experienced with MINI + winter.

In patches of roadway that are clearly icy to some degree (black ice, spotty patches of glare ice, or what I call "dry icy" where the road was wet, the moisture mostly absorbed-in, then froze, leaving a frosty surface), the MINI has performed fine. I've never once lost control, never actually slid, had issues stopping, or anything else.

BUT... What I feel in the seat of my pants are periodic spells of what feels like a very short-duration yaw. (Sorry, I'm a pilot too... It's the same thing you feel in a small plane when you quickly press the rudder and left off—only much faster.) In a car context, it FEELS like the very beginning of a lateral slide, where the rear of the vehicle starts coming loose from the road, and my reaction is to let off the gas and be ready to steer into it to bring it under control.

Thing is, it never actually comes loose. But the sensation is awful, and my association (from years of driving) of that feeling being an imminent "bad event" is so far impossible to shake.

Do any of you know what's actually happening? Maybe it's the DSC or something doing precisely what it's supposed to do. Took me awhile to get used to antilock brakes when those first came-on the scene; clearly I need to sort of reorient myself to this car, get used to how it feels, and understand how it acts. Two times in slick conditions isn't anywhere near enough. But the feeling in my butt in these moments is scary enough I now don't even want to drive the thing when it's bad out.

Thoughts?

Hi -

Maybe I missed it but nowhere did you mention treads. Tires are a huge part of that equation. With the right rubber (like Hakka R's or Blizzaks) you could run circles around SUVs.

Yeah, important point... I bought the car used in August 2012 with the original 15" Continental all-weathers still on them, with about 50% of the tread left. When the car was hit in December while parked, one of the tires was destroyed, and I opted to replace all four with the same Continental all-weathers, rather than have one new and three pretty well worn brothers.

Right, wrong or otherwise, I've have never cycled tires seasonally. I know a lot of people do, I know a lot of MINI owners do, but even in pre-global-warming Denver winters (so to speak), it's never been necessary. Couple that with an abysmally small range of choices in 15" tires, and I just went with the same ones. (I have basically the same tire, larger size, on my Volvo S40 and always liked them.)

I'm probably open-minded about cycling snow tires on and off, but am not wild about the $400 to $500 spend—or the cost to get them cycled—when for years now, we've had exceptionally mild, warm winters.

I find my MINI to be just fine in the snow. I find it handles as good as my 2000 Passat did, and better than my 2004 Mazda3 hatchback. Best advice I can give is turn the driver stability control off. There is nothing worse than trying to get on the throttle to get through an uphill chicane only to have the cpu tell you no.

I have to traverse 6+ miles of old, winding, and elevation changing farm roads that are usually the last place in town to see a plow (main street gets a plow 5 or 6 times before I see one). The only problem I have had this winter is when I get to my driveway. There is a hill at the bottom that my two previous car always got hung up on. The MINI gets up no problem... that is until it pushes a mound of snow in front of it which stops it in its tracks.

Try and focus on the road, not the car's present state. Anticipate the hell out of your terrain and try to predict what it's going to do to your car. If you have to react and compensate to danger, you are already to late. Make the adjustments necessary to not allow those issues to happen. Take advantage of engine braking, and always remember that the throttle is usually your best friend in the snow.

BJM, thanks for the reply. Yeah, good advice. I'd like to think after learning to drive in Colorado, and driving here for 30 years (gasps—can it possibly be that long really?) that I have a good handle on things. I've driven a lot of cars in a lot of conditions. That said, it's one reason I've always favored manual transmissions—and did on the MINI... Better control over things. Even when driving an automatic, however, I use the hell out of the low gears. I'm not sure most people even know they have them.

I want to emphasize again I've not actually experienced any loss of control or problem driving the MINI.

I wish I could articulate this sensation better... The best comparison I can make is when the car "snaps" into a groove on a grooved concrete driving surface. (I've heard that called tracking and tramming too.) It's a very quick, instantaneous, and momentary thing that my own kinesthesia feels coming from the back end of the vehicle.

What I describe happening in the original post is a virtually identical sensation. Just a very rapid, very slight but very perceptible jerk and by the time I even sense it, it's over.

As I said, I'm conditioned from experience that that kinesthetic sensation = imminent-bad-thing. But because there is no control loss, and no real "event" here, there's nothing to correct. It just FEELS horrible to me.

I honestly think it's just a part of MINI driving I need to understand isn't anything. But I'd still like someone to say to me, "Yeah, that's such and such, it's a normal thing in MINIs because of blah blah blah, and you'll get over it."

It's probably the same as unusual attitude recovery in pilot training. The whole point is to learn to trust what you SEE (out the window, and the instruments), and not what you FEEL, because those kinesthetic senses are easily fooled.

Anyway, going to my first meeting at the local MINI club next week, and I'll ask around there and see if anyone has any ideas. Maybe I'm overly sensitive to it... I sure was when I was learning to fly airplanes!

Thanks again for the confirmation that they're fine in snow.

pretje

when the DSC intervenes on my cms all4, the DSC light in the tach flashes while it is active

i can feel it and it is wierd ... like someone else is driving, but the car does seem to know what it's doing

i suggest a snow covered empty parking lot, get the car out of control and see the DSC in action

scott

Scott,

Thanks for the reply. I don't RECALL seeing the DSC indicator coming-on, but I recall hearing someplace else (who knows, maybe the manual!) that it does, so maybe the sensation I'm feeling is something else. Like I said, it feels very much like snapping / tracking / tramming in grooved payment.

In any case, yeah, we're supposed to be getting more snow in the coming days, and if we get enough of it, I'm taking your suggestion and just screwing around (carefully) in an empty parking lot to see if I can just get used to how it's "supposed" to feel during X, Y or Z situation. Great idea.

Wes

What I have done, by way of getting to know the Mini on poor/zero traction surfaces is to press and hold the DSC button for 3 seconds to fully disable the traction control systems.

Then I went driving, and figured out what the chassis and tires liked and what they didn't.

That way I know what the limits actually are, and therefore what the DSC system has to work with when it tries to tidy up little skids with an occaisonal touch of one brake.

Just a thought...

Cheers,

Charlie

it's a lot of fun too! :lol:

we have 4"-6" of fresh snow here right now and i have a large empty airport ramp calling me ... later

scott

Charlie, thanks. Another thing to add to the mix if I can find a good combo of snow/slick surfaces and a vacated parking lot this weekend. (Crossing fingers.)

Truly, it makes me wish there was a performance driving school someplace with MINIs where I could experience the full driving envelope under controlled and supervised conditions, and develop a bit more confidence.

While I'm hardly timid, I am an extremely safety-oriented, defensive driver to start with, but after Pretje was in the shop for five weeks due to an accident—even though it was parked at the time!—I've been overly paranoid that something's gonna happen to him again. Maybe that sounds weird, but just being honest.

Anyway, I'll be hoping for good conditions this weekend to do a little acclimation.

Wes

Look up the SCCA and NASA regions in your area. Look on them for "Solo 2" or "autocross" events. Those are lower-speed (typically 2nd-gear) events around cones in a large parking lot. The object, naturally, is to get around the course the fastest--but that usually means right at the edge of control most or all of the time. Fun as heck, too. And much lower-impact and less risk than big-track events.

BTW, my car did a funny kind of wiggle when I really threw it around a corner hard. It felt like it transitioned from understeer to oversteer briefly and then back to understeer again. I was a little too busy to notice if the DSC light was flashing at me, but that's the only guess I have as to what happened to me. I'm thinking the same thing happened to you.

I'm here too (Aurora). I've sucked in quite a few deep breaths and breathed deeply, when I first got out on the roads, with my MINI, in the snow and ice. I took mine to a K-Mart parking lot at 5, one morning and just drove like there was no tomorrow. It helped me feel my car.
Although we're front end drive, I found that in certain situations a sand bag in the boot makes a huge difference. I refuse to give in to my inner fear,,,snow !! :lol:

From your description, it does sound like DSC intervened. Unless you were specifically watching for the light, you wouldn't have noticed it as it was only momentarily on.
WRT to your reaction of that sensation, please don't let off the gas. That only transfers more weight to the front of the car and reduces the traction at the rear, which makes an oversteer condition worse. (Oversteer is yaw in a car)

I highly recommend a Car Control Clinic put on by a local chapter of some of the national car clubs, like BMW CCA, or PCA (Porsche Club of America), etc. You'll have to join the respective club to participate, but for something around $100+, you'll get to spend a day learning how your car behaves in various situations such as Slalom, emergency braking + avoidance, skidpad, and usually ending the day with some type of autocross course. Up here in Washington the performance driving season starts next month, I'm guessing it would be maybe the same in Denver, so if you look now, there might be an event coming up that you can register for. You will need a helmet, but some clubs have loaner helmets that you can ask about.

just got in from 30 minutes plowing through 5-7 inches of wet heavy snow on an empty airport ramp

what a hoot!

with the DSC on, it is almost impossible to get the cms all4 out of shape

in Traction mode, it will get a little out of shape, but is very easy to recover

with DSC/Traction both off, i did manage to spin out once, but that was at 40 mph and full lock turn

roadrallye type turns,ie 4-wheel drifts, are easy and totally controllable

the amount of traction available with my 205/70R16 dunlop grandtrek sj6 studless snow and ice tires is incredible, the car stops with authority too

with the dsc on, full throttle acceleration results in a little wheel spin between 4000 - 5000 rpm, where the power output peaks, other than that, no dsc intervention

i am so glad i bought this cms all4!

scott

Clearly that's my next task... Now I just need the snow to do it!

Thanks for the follow-up Scott! Sounds like fun, and I'm jealous... (I think!) :nod:

Thanks for the tip. I'll do some poking around.

Yeah... Clearly I just need to keep feelin' it out a bit. As I said earlier, it's just really off-putting due to past associations with what the feeling means.

Could the car have a slight alignment issue that only manifests itself in slipperty conditions? On dry or wet pavement, the car may behave O.K., but on snow or ice, the misaligned chassis may act funny...

My '13 hardtop with Blizzaks was simply amazing in the snow tonight (we received 4 to 7 inches of wet stuff today). Traction was immense for what the car is.

I've found that the price of winter tires is quite a bit less than the costs associated with hitting something or going off the road (insurance deductibles, body work, lost time at work, etc). Winter tires have saved me quite a few times even on dry roads during the winter.

hello,
I have the same tires and wheel size as you do, I also live in CO(Morrison) and use to be a pilot:thumbsup: so I know what you mean by "yaw".

I think what you are feeling is the way the front wheel drive of the Mini "tracks" on roads, mainly concrete roads that are newer. I notice this on all front wheel drive cars but more so in the Mini over any car Ive driven. I also notice it more when we have these smaller snows when the roads are not completly covered.

Hope that helps.

I have driven my 07 S since new through Chicago winters and not experienced issues like you describe. My suggestion is that you get set of four winter tires mounted on dedicated wheels.

As should be obvious from my forum name, I spend a fair amount of time in the mountains and have driven over the passes in awful conditions. My R56 will never see snow, fortunately I have an AWD car for the ski trips.

Many years ago when I was in college, I would go out in my FWD car with a friend in his RWD car to a large, snow/ice covered parking lot and play "fighter pilot." We'd start at opposite ends and see who could get on the other's tail. With FWD I always won. Throwing the car around in low traction conditions, learning how to initiate and control slides, and make the most of whatever thraction was available was a great learning experience that has served me well in winter driving in the years since. I highly recommend it for everyone, especially new drivers. Besides, it's great fun.

The first thing to learn is humility, it doesn't matter what tires or 4WD/AWD vehicle you have, when there's no traction physics takes over and you're an observer. I once hit black ice in a 4WD car with winter tires and did a 720. Fortunately it was late at night on a deserted road, I was only going 20mph and didn't hit anything. It was a really odd sensation to watch the scenery go around and around as the car kept sliding in the direction it was originally going.

Like everybody else said - get out there in the lousy conditions where there's nothing to hit, and practice. Then when you get caught out in the really snotty stuff you'll know what to expect.

Good thought but unlikely; when it was hit in December, the body shop did a complete four-wheel alignment on it, and it should be perfectly straight. (It pulled left prior and needed a front-end alignment at a minimum prior to it; all good now.)

Sensible thought, actually. Option two is I simply drive my 4x4 SUV in these conditions... Since getting Pretje, the SUV sits on the carport most of the time. If I'm going to keep it, I should probably drive it! :lol:

Yeah, and obviously the configuration of the MINI is different: smaller wheelbase than I'm used to; different position of the driver relative to that wheelbase; sportier suspension than I'm used to; FAR more responsive steering than I'm used to... I think all of that factors into a different set of kinesthetic sensations than I accustomed to coming primarily from my 2000 Volvo S40 sedan.

It's your tires along with the wide stance and short wheelbase. You feel a lot more of what's going on compared to a longer wheelbase car that isolates some of the feedback. If you switch to winters, it will be dramatically different compares to all-seasons.

Excellent. Thanks for the explanation.

Terrific idea. I'll go do some Googling now.

Thanks much!