Sandia Motor Speedway, Albuquerque, NM has a 1.65 mile road course, q4 turns, and a couple of outside walled areas on track. Instructing a UNM SAE Mini Indy driver in his own Mustang was an interesting experience. Being a young gung ho college fellow, he was not intimidated by enthusiastic use of the right pedal. Exiting the turn just before the start of the wall, he got us quite sideways, right rear on rumble strip next to wall. That be my door! Yikes.

 

 

you instructors are brave souls. I don't think i'd have the stomach for it.

 

I experienced this at my first HDPE last year (not the spinning part, the tell yourself no part). My instructor was very happy with the way I listened to him except when he told me to not lift. I honestly didn't feel like I was, but I guess I was doing it subconsciously b/c as he pointed out to me, he could always see what my foot was doing by looking at my boost gauge...busted

 

It is very hard to sit there in the passenger seat, knowing how fast you're going and maintaining your cool sometimes...

And, most instructors watch everything verrrrrrry closely - so they'll know when you do something! Personally, I listen to the engine and most times I can tell when someone's done something against my wishes...

 

This is classic. I've instructed AX for years and I'm finally biting the bullet and giving track instructing a try this year. I never say left or right with a student, particularly as 'left' might be confused for Lift! I always point and I let the student know that I'll be using hand signals beforehand. Although right handed, I try to use my left arm as well so I know it will be seen.

Speaking of lift, I think it should be mentioned that don't lift means don't panic and release the throttle. Equally its rarely advisable to just slam your foot to the floor either. As others have mentioned its all about managing weight transfer SMOOTHLY. Modulating the throttle is a good thing. But being a early high horsepower 911 driver, I have to laugh a little bit at the thought of MINIs having to deal with excessive oversteer. Fear of oversteer is a bit overdone IMO, as reacting to oversteer is to my mind more natural than its counterpart understeer.

Understeer is the more dangerous circumstance which I suspect is far more commonplace with MINIs on track and is a condition, believe it or not, somewhat shared with the 911 due to its light nose and reluctance to turn in. Inexperienced drivers that come in a little hot and fail to recognize understeer on corner entry will typically react by simply steering more rather than 'lifting' to load the front tires and gain more grip for turning. The problem comes in when the understeer condition persists through the corner and the driver persists in trying to correct the problem with steering. The car continues to run wide and threatens to run out of room at track out. Now the hour is late. If one attempts to reduce speed by laying off the throttle too quickly, the weight rapidly xfers forward adding grip to the front. Unless the wheel is unwound, the steering still has excessive lock applied and the front tires now gain the efficiency to turn. As they are pointed too far to the inside of the turn there is a rapid transition to oversteer. Thus around you go spinning out of control. It wasn't actually the lift that precipitated the spin, what cause the spin was reacting to understeer with the steering wheel as opposed to the throttle. I'm not an experienced MINI track driver, but I'd strongly suspect that in an FWD car like the MINI with its particularly quick steering, this is a far more common cause of spins that true TTO. SO be careful about this not lifting thing, there are times when rapidly easing off the throttle is the correct thing to do.

 

You're the first person other than myself to hear say this, I feel that the car is far more predictable and controlable with oversteer and I have only driven FWD cars on a regular basis. And to prevent completely hijacking the thread I am doing my first Phil Wicks event in April so I'm reading up on all the things I need to do to be a good student, so both me and the instructor can go home happy at the end of the day.

 

We'll at least I'm not the only looney tune out there . I should really qualify my statement by adding that its more natural in low to medium speed corners. In truly high speed corners, for a chicken poop like me, a little understeer more naturally invites easing off the throttle to correct as opposed to having to add power to maintain attitude. I have a few very talented racer friends who comfortably do power drifts at 120+ MPH, but thats outside both my personal comfort and talent zones.

Enjoy your time at the track! Given that your reading as much as you can and taking this seriously, I'd say that as you seem to be approaching going to the track as a student rather than the next Michael Schumacher, you're more than likely to succeed at your goal.

 

Nice to get a definition of that! I did suggest to the instructors/administrators that a glossary of terms and definitions would have been a nice thing to add to the packets. I had no idea what an apex or a gator was until about the third class. I'm sure they figured everyone there was a "track" person and had been interested in this forever, and even those who had never done it would know the terms. WRONG!!! I went just to learn more about safe handling and learning the limits and have no interest in racing, so really had no idea. I ran the entire weekend at way slower speeds than everyone else, and just wanted to get comfortable. Knowing what the parts of a track are called and what the instructor is saying would have helped me get comfortable that much sooner. To their credit, when I mentioned this, the class instructors and my track instructor took the time to spell it out!! Looking back, my instructor never said "right" or "left" either, he always pointed and then said "slight right" or whatever.
Annette

 

Glad to hear I'm on the right track, but I seem to be hear a lot of "this 19 year old" or "this college kid" stuff and I fit into that category, but I'm going because I want to learn how to be a better driver and hopefully be able to reach a point where I'm comfortable doing DE events and can focus on perfecting skills one at a time (work on shifting smoother for a day or holding a better line and so on). I pleased to know that the Wicks school won't be timing and phrohibits talk of racing and lap times at the education events.

 

Good for you!

Fortunately you live in an area that's an easy few hours drive to several fine tracks (e.g. Mid Ohio, Putnam Park) where the BMW CCA and other organizations offer two day schools. Check out your local BMW Buckeye Chapter, they hold three schools each year.

My track story:

Last year I had a student at Putnam driving his E46 M3 with SMG. Now this is a seriously fast car, and he'd go honkin' down the straights, but was unbelievably cautious in the turns. Now that's not all bad, except that you've got to go at least fast enough in the turns to learn, not as if you're looking for a parking space at the mall. But something in this guy's brain just wouldn't believe that his car could pull more than, oh, 0.000001 g's.

On the second day we'd worked up to a little more corner speed, but still only perhaps four or five tenths of his M3's capability. We come into turn 10, the only turn at Putnam where you might hit anything, at a very moderate speed, and this guy just gradually starts steering off to the outside, clearly heading on an intersecting path to the nearby guardrail. It was obvious that his brain just couldn't accept that the car would easily go through the turn, so his hands simply refused to turn the wheel enough to make it happen.

For the first and only time in my six years of instructing on track I grabbed the wheel and yanked it into the turn. He was of course so surprised that he came right of the accelerator, so we did a classic trailing throttle oversteer 180 degree spin, but fortunately stayed on the track. BTW, it's a very interesting experience facing the wrong way and seeing a couple of other cars bearing down on you at 70 mph. Fortunately the other drivers were all less clueless than my student.

My guy was a bit shaken, but recovered. He did leave early though!

This student definitely falls into what instructors refer to as the "Find Another Hobby" category.

I also once had a student who - much later in the weekend! - told me that he had some cognitive issues as the result of head injuries incurred in an auto accident decades ago. If I told him when to brake, turn, accelerate and so on he usually would. But if I left it up to him he'd simply forget about half the time. That was interesting...

Fortunately the horror stories have been in the minority. I've had fun with lots of good students.

With regard to instructors driving, and possibly wrecking, their students' cars, as a Chief Instructor I only allow this after discussion with both parties and for specific instructional purposes. Sometimes it's useful, but mostly it's an invitation to disaster. I once drove a student's brand spanking new Porsche 996 on track and kept asking myself this question: "If I stuff this car, can I afford to replace it?"

You guess the answer...

Neil
05 MCS
96 M3

 

From Post #10 above:



I love the "Find Another Hobby" category. Down South we refer to this condition as OSB (Other Sports Beckon) . However, it should be noted that these conditions are not incurable. I can think of at least one driver who recovered completely from what I thought was terminal OSB. He became quite accomplished. It just took a bit longer.

Compliments also on your "save". Any embarrassment or fear your student may have felt about spinning pales in comparison to the impending contact he was headed for. Good job.

 

Don't feel too bad. A friend of mine once went out with a fairly famous pro at LCMT and the pro decided he wanted him to try a different line so, without warning, he grabbed the wheel. They we're moving right along at the time and my friend, who's a pretty good driver (instructor level) was caught by surprise and lifted, at which point they went spinning doing a roughly a 1080, all the while the pro was matter of factly explaining what had just happened, "well now you see you lifted, which was a pretty big mistake as the rear end unloaded and..."

 

As a student, I always talk to my instructor prior to entering the track to let him/her know that I do not expect to find any hands on the wheel other than mine. I ask that if the instructors confidence level reaches a point that they feel a potential need to grab the wheel, tell me about it and we will park in the pits and discuss it. I would never, ever, ride with someone that would grab the wheel without prior permission, period.

Now, before anyone gets too upset, let me say that I have never sat in the right seat as an instructor. I can't really say, that under the correct set of circumstances, that I wouldn't do the same.

 

Oh, I've grabbed the wheel But, I didn't do it to teach the line. I did it to keep a student from "re-joining" at an inopportune time/place My student had gotten into CMP T8 a bit too hot and driven off on the outside. OK, I can deal with that. Problem was, we were too hot because we'd just passed two cars. If I hadn't grabbed the wheel, the first of those two cars would have likely hit us in the passenger-side door just before the second car would have rear-ended the first car.

Bottom-line: The instructor can/will do whatever is necessary to ensure safety.

 

To prevent an accident, for safety, OK, I can deal with it. Grabbing the wheel as a teaching aid, nope, don't want it.

 

Slight hijack, and I do not mean to insult your skill as an instructor - but this creates a moderately dangerous and highly annoying situation. As the E46 can out-accelerate many of the other cars that will be out on the track, this guy ends up creating a traffic accordion. It has been my experience with this type of DE student that they also aren't paying attention to their mirrors. My last DE at Putnam, I kept getting stuck behind people like this. Blast down the straights, brake heavy and limp through the corners, then blast off again.

All of my instructors emphasized "smoothness of input", be that gas, brake, or steering. Being mostly a 3rd and 4th gear course (except turn 7), Putnam is more about preserving your momentum instead of neck-snapping accel/braking. It would appear that your M3 student didn't really comprehend the basics of being out there? But that's OK, this isn't a hobby for everyone...

I'm not sure how I'd react if the instructor grabbed the wheel from me. I always try to talk with him/her before the first session to explain where I'm at skill-wise, and what I want to work on. Since my 914 doesn't have the HP, I'm always about the "smooth". The only "street" cars that can take turn 7 at putnam faster than me in the 914 is a MINI

Just my $.02

 

Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't appreciate it if my instructor did that either.

The only other occasions when I've put a hand on the wheel is during an out-lap or cool-down lap (with the student's prior knowledge and a greatly reduced pace) to demonstrate a different line through a corner.

 

I've been thinking about this quite a bit, actually, especially since Neil's the CI at my first school of the season! :-) I wouldn't appreciate any instructor providing unwanted feedback into my control inputs, unless we were about to crash, and that's what he did. He was certain they'd end up in the armco if he didn't do something, and it must have been a pretty good bet that spinning and possibly contacting something (or someone) else was going to do less damage. I do wonder what would have happened if the outcome hadn't been so good, but you can't bag on him for saving that guy's bacon. :-)

 

When you spin both feet in.

When in doubt both feet out.

The laws of physics apply even to Porsches.

It's only money.

 

Oh, I completely agree. This has happened to me many times when I have a decent student driver in a low powered car: we catch up to others in the turns, but don't have the power to get by in the passing zones. Very frustrating.

Of course there's a simple solution to this: proper attention by the instructor in the higher powered car. My experience as CI is that the people in the low powered car are never slow to bring the problem to my attention.

I've also found that once you point out to the driver of the fast but blocking car that it'd be much more comfortable for them not to have another car right up their butt in the turns, that they usually tend to see reason.

Either way the blocking car's instructor needs to exercise proper control.

On the positive side of instructor anecdotes, there's nothing more satisfying than when you have a student who just "gets it."

Uh-oh! I've been outed!

Of course now Brian knows that he'd better behave or he'll be the subject of Putnam war stories here. <g>

Neil
05 MCS
96 M3

 

Rats. Me and my big mouth. ;-)

 

Well I completed my first driving academy, this past weekend. I attended the Phil Wicks Academy and loved it. I had an instructor the first session who travels with the school and she showed me what she thought the best line around the track was but admitted it was her first school at the track so we tried a few different thing in some of the corners. For me just ahving someone talk me through the track the in the first session took away all of my stress, anxiety and nervousness about the day so I could really apply what she had tought me the rest of the day.

In the second session I was on my own and had some difficulty with smoothness my first two laps then I started talking myself though each shift, brake, turn accel. adjustment and found I hit an almost instant rythm.

Third session started out real rough I was in a pack of 7 cars that was held up by someone who was likely getting their first instruction of the day, so I did a pass through the pits and separated myself from much of the traffic out there. When I separted myself from the pack of cars I was able to hit almost every apex (turn 7 at Sebring still seemed too late) and actually came off the track relaxed.

My fourth track session, I managed to pick up an instructor who was there with NASA driving his boxster and seemed to be a very active member of of the Porche Owners club which fequently visits Sebring. He helped me adjust my line so that it was optimal for Sebring and he really pushed me in the shift here, brake here on the gas here, do this smoother constant constant fix this adjust this, I also picked up a few "good job"s and "that was better"s. Now, don't misinterpret that because I even told him half way through the session That I appreciated the steady flow of feedback and instruction. I was passed alot more (felt like many had decided to disregarded the limits oneself to 80% of capability), but had much better control and precsion. Then heading into turn one 3/4 of the way through the session we saw the steady black flag, one of the cars out there spun and hit the wall, I took advantage of being able to follow the line nice and slow. I also took advantage of the oppurtunity to get advice on where to learn and what to consider when prepping for my next track day. He pointed out that from the skid marks the spun car lifted mid corner then round and round she goes. Everyone walked away and the car will need some work but will live to drive again. We sat in the pits and I got some more advice before the session was brought to an end.

All in all, I expected some more classroom time and to do more work at the skidpad, but I was very pleased to have nearly two hours at speed, half of which was spent under direct one-on-one instruction, thanks to this thread and reading everything I could find on preformance driving theory I managed to make it through the day with out so much as a scratch on the car. For the record I was the youngest student (19) there by about five years and found I spent less time unlearning bad habits than many others there, also I made sure (mainly because of this thread) to leave my ego at home so that I could get the most out of my day. So thats what it feels like from behind the wheel. I also heard the best description that was helpful to keep in mind and that was "the ride is always 15-20 MPH faster from the passenger seat."

 

I tell my students before we go out that if I might put my index finger on their right leg. That means stay on the gas. I've done it before to correct habitual lifters - you literally just push down on their leg just above the knee in order for their brain to make the association.

 

When instructors touch the wheel as a teaching aid, there should be no grabbing involved. I tell my students before we go out that I might gently guide the wheel to show them a line if they don't seem to "get it". I tell them again before I'm about to do it, and I've never had a student have a problem with it. In fact after I do it they often go "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, so THAT'S what you meant about going through there smoothly" or some other such revelatory exclamation.