First hand knowledge holds much more water than hearsay.

Mark

 

And you're point is what? That my friend the mechanic who has installed these on MINI's doesn't know what he is talking about. Boy you really are a presumptuous D**K aren't ya.

He has installed these and has noticed that on every single one of them that the bushings allow much less up and down travel of the control arm. Does it effect the performance.....don't know as I don't have them. But he doesn't recommend them, he suggests a different product.

 

I'm sorry ScottinBend I don't follow your friend's logic-the mechanic-for this part. These bushings provide a stiffer more precise locating pivot point for the LCA. I don't see them reducing up and down travel.

I appreciate you sharing your friend's opinion though!

Jeremy

 

His point is that the arm movement should not be restricted. The bushings should only stiffen the movement. The arms are actually binding the inserts when moving up and down. There is less movement available than stock. Is this good or bad......don't know, but I trust him.

 

Again, it's lots of lube to the rescue!

The powerflex bushings are working fine for me.

Jeremy

 

And for everyone else who has them or the Mini-Madness version installed...

Perhaps scott's friend doesn't have quite as much experience with these as the guys at Powerflex or Mini-Madness, or perhaps he just sells a different brand...

 

Yes, front control arm bushings do limit movement of the control arm. I saw it myself when rebuilding my Cooper.

Yes, front control arm bushing do improve the handling of the car. I saw it myself when driving my car.

Would a stiffer bushing that doesn't limit travel be even better? Probably.

 

???I'm more than a little curious about this...I do not have experience with the Madness bushing. However, if it is the same as the Powerflex unit, I do not understand how it limits travel...

you have to study the dynamics of a control arm that does not rotate along a central axis; the front point of restraint is a ball joint that allows the control arm to spin around the axis determined by the rear bushing/control arm stud. Thus, as the control arm moves up and down, it must move in and out of the rear bushing because! as the control arm pivots around the axis it essentially moves farther away from the rear bushing. The axis changes slightly, but by my hands, there is no increase in resistance.

I studied this exstensively. If you remove the knuckle from the the LCA ans simply move the arm thru its full range of motion you will see how the ball joint affects the movement of the arm relative to the rear bushing. and on my car, ther is zero binding anywhere...the Powerflex bushings had about 100,000 miles on them when I removed them this past spring. There was no evidence of any binding or unusual where anywhere. I installed two new Powerflex bushings just because.

Anyone concerned with binding must remove the knuckle from the control arm and observe the movement with their own eyes, made possibe by thier own hands so that they can see and feel how easily the LCA does move.

The Powerflex bushing is one of the best solutions to the stock bushing. It will make certain bumps fell mush more sharp, but steering precision and consistency are leagues ahead of the stock bushing...as is durability!

And to be clear, the range of motion in my experiment was limited by the LCA contacting the subframe - in other words, much more motion than this car will see in any driving scenerio. Remember too, we are trying to eliminate slop which will limit so odd motions as seen in the stock bushing. I'm suggesting that I have just over 100,000 miles of experience with the Powerflex bushing and it worked perfectly. Lubricate it generously, install it correctly and you will not have problems.

 

That all makes sense to me Meb; I never saw any binding or limiting of travel after my powerlex LCA bushing install.

Jeremy

 

Well... perhaps it limits the travel of the control arm once the control arm is already out of its normal range of motion?

With the ball joint and strut not connected, the control arm with a urethane bushing has less motion available to it than one with a stock bushing. But, that limited movement may already be way out of the operating range of the control arm.

Just ideas.

We noticed it when trying to move the control arm way down to pop the top of the strut out of its mounting location. Not normal operating range.

onasled may have some input - he was the one who grimaced at my urethane front bushings.

 

Unmderstood Jasen. In my case travel was limited by the ball joint and perhaps the subframe...I cannot remember. But I noticed zero binding and I'm a little freaky about binding since it affects the subtle operation of the suspension.

I will also offer this thought...Powerflec make a component that is suitable for racing that apparently bolts into the rear LCA stud. I've often wondered why this piece might be deemed helpful since to me it will absolutely cause binding...???

The perfect piece? A ball joint that allows the LCA stud to move in and out as the front portion rotates around the stock ball joint. The two work on different axis...

 

There are different densities of polyurethane. The denser the material the harder the bushing. Most companies will not divulge which desities they are using. It may be possible that you can order a less dense ploy bushing to reduce what might be the describe binding?

The Minis bushing is both a vibration damper and a swivel joint bushing. The companies that offer the bushings for that vertical bushing most likely run a tighter pre-load on the sleeve specification. Because of this when the poly bushing is first replace it will have the sensation of binding and may even bind until the poly bushing gets a wear pattern developed. Use lots of anti-seize on the entire bushings and mating surfaces. And drive it a little then check for the binding.

Just a thought.

 

This is a dual density bushing; the outer is harder than the inner sleeve. so this will allow for some non-linear movement - the same as the stock bushing but less so.

And again, I removed the subframe four times and each time checked these bushings. Wear is barely noticable.

I personally feel this is a great component, but it will compromise comfort. I certainly understand Jasen and Greg's thoughts and respect their observations. My last and final thought here is that if the LCA weighed a couple of ounces, we might notice binding that affects its operation. In my case, as I rasie the stock arm as far up as it can go, it falls without hesitation. If I perform the same rudimentary test with my hands attached, I feel no dicernable binding...

Another thought that i have about this particular design - the entire LCA - is the mini basically has zero toe change associated with LCA movement. This is a spectacular achievment against many other vehicles. Further, with the stock bushing, there is a need to overstep performance toe settings due to defelction in the stock bushing. I have found, not surprisingly, that toe setting remain very constant under load with this bushing which allow slightly more conservative settings...FWIW

 

The polyurethane control arm bushing are a great product.

I talked with Kevin at ENERGY SUSPENSION about this issue about binding. At this time the BMW? MINI control arm bushing is on the back burner he did say that they had made a pro type for later production. They did not have any control arm limitation. I gathered that the mini project was set aside for some of the other new products they have coming out for more popular cars. However he said that he would talk to anyone who called him about the bushings

http://www.energysuspension.com/

 

Which product does he recommend? I'd be interested.

 

I think it was the Alta PSRS.

 

Just adding my final two cents...the Powerflex unit will not limit suspension travel and will not add to binding based upon my experinece if installed and lubricated properly.

And, if you need to remove the LCA, the subframe does not have to be removed or even lowered; disconnect the outer and inner ball joints and the control arm slides out of the bushing.

 

I've installed a few of these. I have the MINI/BMW bushing tool which allows me to install them without completely dropping the sub-frame or removing the carrier bracket. The last set I installed in about 1.5 hrs.

Personally, I don't notice the ride being any rougher... however, when these were installed I also installed Koni FSD's and I.E. fixed camber plates, so it was hard to tell which made the most difference. Regardless, the overall change in handling was pretty dramatic.

Another option if the Powerflex bushings rub you wrong is sold by Bavarian Autosport. They sell a urethane stock replacement as well as an "PSRS-style" offset version.

 

IanF - How much does that tool cost? That saves a lot of time and labor.

 

Disclaimer, I don't sell replacement control arm bushings at the time of this post. There are many great NAM Vendors that do sell them. Way Motor Works and Moss MINI two I know of at this time.

If your MINI is running over 60K miles and the steering is feeling funny please get the front control arm bushings replaced. Not doing so sooner may have cost one of the below owners the extra cost of ALSO replacing both front wheel bearing hubs, parts and labor, over $600.00. MINI will be great high mileage cars to own, but like all cars need TLC.

 

Why would a worn out LCA bushing lead to failure of the front hub and bearing?

 

OK, here is the facts. The stiffer the control arm bushings are the lesser the amount of "free" motion the control arm will have. So, if you installed a set of solid Delrin bushing then the amount of free movement would be less then an inch. Let me clarify this. Free movement would be how much the arm would move up and down via a persons arm strength without some type of binding.
Solid delrin could not be moved more then an inch, maybe two if you were real strong. This would lead to control arm failure quickly.
I have seen Brownminis bushings and I can say that after a few miles of driving on them that they were pretty free. I liked them, but really didn't have a chance to really study them.

The reason here is that the control arm doesn't "pivot" in this bushings like some may think. The rear pivot point of a Mini's control arm is actually behind the bushing, so this means that the arm is rotating in a small circumference (orbit) around the center pivot point. So, these bushings get squeezed as the the arm goes up and down.
Hope this makes sense.

 

It wouldn't, ...but a worn wheel bearing would stress a rear bushing, along with all the other suspension components.

 

No more BMW-MINI. Your going Benz?????????????????????????

 

We have found on more then a few with really bad bushings that the hubs are bad too. As you can see in the pic below the arm (#14) is held in at 3 points and when the rear bushing (#8) goes bad the arms will move in ways the hub was not designed to handle. Add to that the bad roads of Chicago area of the last two winters and you have all the parts to cause hub damage too.

I hope that helps.