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I'm ditching my run-flats and considering downgrading size
I spec'ed my new Oxford two-door with summer performance tires and it was delivered with Pirelli Cinturato run-flats in a 205/45x17 XL size which I'm planning on replacing with conventional tires. The Pirelli's are mounted on black Tentacle spoke wheels and look great but I'd like to soften the ride.
I'm not planning on autocrossing or tracking the car and it will be used primarily as a fun summer car with a trip or two and will be parked in the winter. I would like to do the right thing and make one purchase rather than guess wrong and have to do it twice. My options are replacing the run-flats with 205/45x17 Continental ExtremeContact DWS06 Plus or Sumitomo HTR A/S P03's (based on ratings and availability) OR downgrading to 195/55x16's on new wheels which I've narrowed down to 16x6.5 ET 50 Borbet Type W's. The 16" tires that I'm considering are a Pirelli Cinturato P7 All Season Plus II grand touring tire or the Sumitomo HTR A/S PO3's ultra-high performance all-season (also based on ratings and availability). I'm interested in what others have done and whether you have experience with any of the tires that I noted above. |
Originally Posted by Bob-O
(Post 4604122)
I spec'ed my new Oxford two-door with summer performance tires and it was delivered with Pirelli Cinturato run-flats in a 205/45x17 XL size which I'm planning on replacing with conventional tires. The Pirelli's are mounted on black Tentacle spoke wheels and look great but I'd like to soften the ride.
I'm not planning on autocrossing or tracking the car and it will be used primarily as a fun summer car with a trip or two and will be parked in the winter. I would like to do the right thing and make one purchase rather than guess wrong and have to do it twice. My options are replacing the run-flats with 205/45x17 Continental ExtremeContact DWS06 Plus or Sumitomo HTR A/S P03's (based on ratings and availability) OR downgrading to 195/55x16's on new wheels which I've narrowed down to 16x6.5 ET 50 Borbet Type W's. The 16" tires that I'm considering are a Pirelli Cinturato P7 All Season Plus II grand touring tire or the Sumitomo HTR A/S PO3's ultra-high performance all-season (also based on ratings and availability). I'm interested in what others have done and whether you have experience with any of the tires that I noted above. |
Originally Posted by Jason Cornelius
(Post 4604127)
Look into 215/45/r17’s it opens up a few more options and gives you the extra rubber on the road. My next summer tires are going to be 215/45/zr17 firehawk Indy 500’s. I’m running 215/45/zr17 fullway hp108’s as my all seasons and so far, 2000 miles and I like them. I haven’t run the Indy’s yet, next summer will be my first summer.
I had the Indy 500's on my former 2018 Mustang GT. IIRC I was running a 235/50x18 and they were pretty stiff tires but they stuck like glue and were even really good in the rain. They didn't kill my fuel economy, either, as I managed to regularly get 29 mpg highway in that car. |
Originally Posted by Jason Cornelius
(Post 4604127)
Look into 215/45/r17’s it opens up a few more options and gives you the extra rubber on the road.
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^^^ I ordered a set of Michelin Pilot Sport 4S summer tires in 215/45R17 (+1) online yesterday from Discount Tire for my (sig) R53 which will replace the Toyo Proxes RA1 205/40R17 (-1) track tires on now. Those Toyos only have a few thousand miles on them but nearly 16 yrs old and much too low and are super stiff. Just called and they arrived at my chosen store today. Plan now is to drive 80 miles to the nearest MINI dealer tomorrow morning for 4-wheel alignment and then to Discount Tire for installation of those Pilot Sport 4S.
Watch this video and you'll see why I chose them: Also noting, I nearly chose the newer design Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4 (which are cheaper), however my R53 won't be driven in cold climate conditions. This review by same author is compelling, nonetheless: |
I'll toss in my 2¢ in a different direction...
Unless you are ultra agressive with your street driving... and I mean ULTRA AGRESSIVE.... The 195 55 16's will give you a superior experience to the 205's or the 215's which I've had in most top brands and performance categories. The ride quality difference going to the 16" from a NON-RFT 17 ... is one step MORE than if going from RFT to NON RFT in the 17" There are Great AS, UHPAS, UHPS, MAX-S, and Extreme-S in that size range....The tire size are not the limiting factor with these cars. The 16" size will reward you in overall NVH experience ride quality while NOT sacrificing any performance in YOUR use of the car. From your description... you fit well in the UHPAS (Ultra high performance all season category) Unless you have a heated garage. Lots of "road racers" on here need a different experience from their tires ... and If you are being honest in your presentation of use of the car... you will be, IMHO, rewarded with your choice of 195/55/16's for your car. Pilot 4S is an amazing tire, when it's needed... it is horrible in cold weather... and even worse when there is ANY frost on the road... Don't use them if you have any cold spells... and do not STORE them at lower temps... even if not driving them. Michelin even recommends not to store the tires in a cold room, and if you do, you have to allow them to warm up before using... certainly not letting the tires sit on cold ground below the temperature thresholds. I grew up in SE Mich.... i would not use a "Summer" tire outside of Summer on my mini if I lived back there again... and I'd be storing them off the car, in a heated room if I had a second set that got installed on the car in the summer. I have the FireHawks coming for my 16" summer set in the 195 width... Road tested on my friends modded R56 with full KW suspension and some other mods.... SUPER sticky and, again, the tires were not the limiting factor of "driving the car to the limit" The Ventus prime is a great tire for your use if you drive in the rain. F rom Michelin: "Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support the vehicle. " . https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.nor...cbab82c928.png https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.nor...54003c5cea.png . |
Originally Posted by mountainhorse
(Post 4604145)
I'll toss in my 2¢ in a different direction...
Unless you are ultra agressive with your street driving... and I mean ULTRA AGRESSIVE.... The 195 55 16's will give you a superior experience to the 205's or the 215's which I've had in most top brands and performance categories. There are Great AS, UHPAS, UHPS, MAX-S, and Extreme-S in that size range....The tire size are not the limiting factor with these cars. The 16" size will reward you in overall NVH experience ride quality while NOT sacrificing any performance in YOUR use of the car. From your description... you fit well in the UHPAS (Ultra high performance all season category) Unless you have a heated garage. Lots of "road racers" on here need a different experience from their tires ... and If you are being honest in your presentation of use of the car... you will be, IMHO, rewarded with your choice of 195/55/16's for your car. Pilot 4S is an amazing tire, when it's needed... it is horrible in cold weather... and even worse when there is ANY frost on the road... Don't use them if you have any cold spells... and do not STORE them at lower temps... even if not driving them. Michelin even recommends not to store the tires in a cold room, and if you do, you have to allow them to warm up before using... certainly not letting the tires sit on cold ground below the temperature thresholds. I grew up in SE Mich.... i would not use a "Summer" tire outside of Summer on my mini if I lived back there again... and I'd be storing them off the car, in a heated room if I had a second set that got installed on the car in the summer. I have the FireHawks coming for my 16" summer set in the 195 width... Road tested on my friends modded R56 with full KW suspension and some other mods.... SUPER sticky and, again, the tires were not the limiting factor of "driving the car to the limit" The Ventus prime is a great tire for your use if you drive in the rain.. I appreciate your view of the 16's as it's something that I've thought about a lot lately. Those taller 55 series sidewalls will definitely help smooth out the ride. Also, I'm now in my mid-sixties and driving fast on the street isn't something I do much anymore. My wife complains that I drive like an old man! Well, I am an old man! Also, the last moving violation I had was in 1983 and I intend to maintain that record but I will admit that there were a few occasions with my Mustang that I could have gotten a big ticket but didn't get caught. I'm going to go ahead and do some more looking at 16" tires to finalize that and then I'll be placing an order. I'm not going to sell my Tentacle spoke wheels but I may bust the run-flats down and sell those off and keep the Tentacles for the next owner. |
^^^
^^^ Seems I jumped on the "summer tire" theme prematurely without fully factoring the OP's new car and region. I do agree with @mountainhorse on those pertaining aspects, while my own perspectives and decision were based on modded suspension plus aftermarket big brakes as well as wheels to accommodate those. I nearly chose Mich's AS tire wrt winter garage storage vs driving conditions, i.e., attached, enclosed and insulated but not heated where outside overnight temps routinely dip below freezing (rarely into single digits) for a few hours. My decision factored limited cold temps exposure but also utilization of (3) 4'x6'x3/4" stall mats as a dedicated parking pad to isolate tires from cold concrete flooring (will show that in my own thread soon). With all that said for a new 3rd Gen, compromises for practicality might better suit the OP. |
For what it's worth....my alignment guy advised me to get my new tires put on the car before getting the alignment done.
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Originally Posted by MCS4FUN
(Post 4604140)
^^^ I ordered a set of Michelin Pilot Sport 4S summer tires in 215/45R17 (+1) online yesterday from Discount Tire for my (sig) R53 which will replace the Toyo Proxes RA1 205/40R17 (-1) track tires on now.
Originally Posted by mountainhorse
(Post 4604145)
Unless you are ultra agressive with your street driving... and I mean ULTRA AGRESSIVE.... The 195 55 16's will give you a superior experience to the 205's or the 215's which I've had in most top brands and performance categories.
The ride quality difference going to the 16" from a NON-RFT 17 ... is one step MORE than if going from RFT to NON RFT in the 17" There are Great AS, UHPAS, UHPS, MAX-S, and Extreme-S in that size range....The tire size are not the limiting factor with these cars. The 16" size will reward you in overall NVH experience ride quality while NOT sacrificing any performance in YOUR use of the car.
Originally Posted by mountainhorse
(Post 4604145)
Pilot 4S is an amazing tire, when it's needed... it is horrible in cold weather... and even worse when there is ANY frost on the road... Don't use them if you have any cold spells... and do not STORE them at lower temps... even if not driving them.
That said the OP did run Indy 500s before. When these did well for him the PS4Ss will do even better at any temperature. Despite that I'd use dedicated winter tires during the cold season. That's what I'm used to for more than 30 years. 16" wheels are plenty enough during winter or even 15" on a Cooper (185/65 R15 provides lots of choice). |
I run The Continental DWS 06 Plus at 215/45-17, and reckon they are good. So far I've used them wet and dry in the 21-70 degree range, no ice or snow yet.
Good ride, quiet, good grip. FWIW. Cheers, Charlie |
I flipped the switch earlier today and placed an order with TireRack for:
A set of Borbet Type W wheels in a 16x6.5 50mm offset size and a set of the Continental ExtremeContact DWS 06 Plus tires in a 205/50x16 size. I kind of met in the middle between 205 and 215 45 x 17's and the 195/55x16's that I seriously considered. My reasoning was: The DWS's are the top-rated ultra-high-performance all-season tires in that size. There should be enough sidewall bulge to provide better rim protection than I would have had with the 195/55's. The 205/50's are a little shorter than the stock 205/45x17 run-flats that I have on the car now which while increasing highway cruise revs just a touch, I'm not sure that it will be noticeable but I should have slightly better around-town throttle response. I've had 50 series tires before and I'm OK with the ride quality. Going from run-flats to non-run-flats will give me a better ride. Going from a 45 to a 50 series tire will be a little better again. There is going to be a pretty good weight saving per corner, too. The stock Tentacles and tires are probably 42 - 44 lbs each and the new tires/wheels will be 37 lbs and change each. That's going to be at least a 5 lbs per corner weight savings. While the new tires won't be quite as tall as the stockers, a casual observer won't notice the difference in height. Since I'm considering lowering the car slightly next year, these tires will work fine with a lowered suspension and the lowered suspension will address any issue with increased wheel gap with the new size. |
Originally Posted by 930 Engineering
(Post 4604299)
I have to disagree. Storing a summer tire at temperatures below freezing is a non-issue. I only ever read this on American forum, never ever anywhere else. When tires are shipped from e.g. Asia to Europe or Europe to NA during winter it isn't even possible to keep temps above freezing. It's just a myth and repeating it on forums doesn't make it any more true.
I agree... lots of hype and superstition out there on the web and on forums. |
Originally Posted by Bob-O
(Post 4604372)
A set of Borbet Type W wheels in a 16x6.5 50mm offset size and
a set of the Continental ExtremeContact DWS 06 Plus tires in a 205/50x16 size.
Originally Posted by Bob-O
(Post 4604372)
My reasoning was:
The 205/50's are a little shorter than the stock 205/45x17 run-flats that I have on the car now which while increasing highway cruise revs just a touch, I'm not sure that it will be noticeable but I should have slightly better around-town throttle response. 175/65 R15 is smaller dia, 195/55 R16 and 205/40 R18 are taller and 205/45 is very close to 205/50 R16. It's actually a pretty perfect match.
Originally Posted by Bob-O
(Post 4604372)
Going from run-flats to non-run-flats will give me a better ride.
Originally Posted by Bob-O
(Post 4604372)
There is going to be a pretty good weight saving per corner, too. The stock Tentacles and tires are probably 42 - 44 lbs
each and the new tires/wheels will be 37 lbs and change each. That's going to be at least a 5 lbs per corner weight savings. noticeable as the improvement on ride due to getting rid of the runflat tires's super stiff sidewalls. . |
Originally Posted by 930 Engineering
(Post 4605015)
Congrats, solid choice!
The difference in diameter is negligible, you won't hardly notice it. 205/50 R16 falls right between other stock tire sizes. 175/65 R15 is smaller dia, 195/55 R16 and 205/40 R18 are taller and 205/45 is very close to 205/50 R16. It's actually a pretty perfect match. That's probably the most significant gain. If you are able to notice any improvement in acceleration it's due to the decrease in rotating mass. It still won't be that noticeable as the improvement on ride due to getting rid of the runflat tires's super stiff sidewalls. . The fit is really good! I can get the thickness of my fingers between the front strut and the tire so there are no clearance issues. The 205 width is identical to the stock tires and the 6.5" width rims plus their 50mm backspace pushes them out a hair compared to the stock 7" wide 54mm backspace Tentacle's. I did see weight savings but not as much as I thought I would have per TireRack's weights which I did verify with the manufacturer websites. The stock wheel/tire combo weighed in at 42.4 and the new wheel/tires at 39 for about a 3.5 lb per corner saving. TireRack shows the wheels at 17.35 and tires at 20 but on our scale, they weighed in at 39. Even if the weight savings is only 3.5 lbs per corner it is a savings and improves the performance. I took the car for a short five-mile test drive afterward and I am totally shocked at the improvement in ride quality - it's like a totally different car. There are still the same bumps in the road but they aren't as severe as they felt with the stock run-flats. TireRack also did their always excellent balancing job and there are no vibrations up to the 75 mph max that I did today. Overall, I'm pleased with the result. However, if I were to do it over again given my slight additional wheel gap I think I would go with the 195/55x16 Conti LS grand touring tire instead since it is slightly taller than my stock tires and would do a good job filling the gap. But it is what it is and I can start planning on lowering the car 3/4" - 1" in the spring which ought to give me the tighter wheel gap that I'm now looking for. Before: https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.nor...94615592fc.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.nor...1a261ee6e9.jpg After: https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.nor...370c47b4bd.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.nor...3edb7d6775.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.nor...d17128234a.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.nor...de3347e833.jpg |
The Ohlins Coilover kit is a super well engineered kit that does not diminish the suspension travel like other kits or "lowering springs".
One of the most highly refined and engineered coilover kits for a car that would be driven on your very "real" Michigan roads. Thank you for the follow ups and the great photos !! Happy motoring. . |
Originally Posted by mountainhorse
(Post 4605276)
The Ohlins Coilover kit is a super well engineered kit that does not diminish the suspension travel like other kits or "lowering springs".
One of the most highly refined and engineered coilover kits for a car that would be driven on your very "real" Michigan roads. Thank you for the follow ups and the great photos !! Happy motoring. . Funny, I was thinking about lowering (again) today and how a 3/4" to 1" max drop would be about perfect aesthetically for me but I would potentially lose that much in suspension travel, too. I really don't want to ruin the ride quality because where it is now is better than it was with the run-flats and 45's. Unfortunately, by changing two things at once - 45 to 50 series tires on new 16's and eliminating the run-flats at the same time - I really don't know which change resulted in the biggest improvement in ride quality. I had lowered my '18 Mustang GT by about 1 1/4" and it took what was an OK ride quality and turned it into something less than desirable here in Michigan. While the stance was freaking awesome going over tall expansion joints, heaved pavement and potholes was not fun at all. As a result, I found I drove the car less and less and I really don't want that to happen to the MINI. As a side note, I never took the time to compare my stock 17's speed to my GPS but with the new 50 series tires on 16's that are only about 1/4" to 3/8" shorter than the 17's my speedometer reads about 3 mph faster than GPS speed across all speed ranges. As has been posted in many other threads my GPS and speedometer speeds probably would have been a much closer match had I gone with the taller 195/55x16 tires. |
Ditching the run-flats certainly makes the bigger difference. When I did swap from the factory
run-flats to PSS of the same 17" size it has been immediately noticeable while the difference to my winter set-up which is 195/55 R16 isn't that huge even though it's still noticeable. In my case the weight saving from factory 17" run-flat to 16" winter non-run-flat is about six pounds. Keep in mind you're comparing partially worn tires with brand new tires with plenty of tread. I'd bet that huge wheel gap is less now as on your photos it's pretty much due to just taking them right after the car came off the jack without moving the car. That isn't due to stretching the springs as they aren't actualliy stretched. They remain compressed during jacked up. It's due to the suspension kinematics and the tires not allowing it to settle unless you move the car a couple of feet. That's normal every time you jack it up and unavoidable even when using a lift. I agree btw, Öhlins Road & Track is fantastic! As a less costly alternative just consider fitting Bilstein B6 dampers. |
I just put on some 16" snow tires that replaced 16" run flats. Rides a lot nicer. Will probably get replacements for the summer tires this spring: only 18k miles on them and they're almost down to the wear bars. That stinks.
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Originally Posted by VelvetFoot
(Post 4637230)
I just put on some 16" snow tires that replaced 16" run flats. Rides a lot nicer. Will probably get replacements for the summer tires this spring: only 18k miles on them and they're almost down to the wear bars. That stinks.
Thats great when you get results you are looking after. Lots of great tires out there for 3 season use.... do you have other wheels so you can leave your winter tires mounted? . |
Just to toss in some info, since I had experience with the pre-06 DSW's on my former Subie Legacy wagon. That generation DSW's had very 'soft' sidewalls as compared to a lot of other similar tires, that car had 205/45R17's for reference. Great for ride comfort, but a little squirmy around corners and not good for pot holes. I did lose one about a week into ownership, where I cut through the sidewalls with the rim edge, but no rim damage...good thing for road hazard insurance. I just ran those tires 4-5 lbs over recommended pressures and they still wore evenly across the tread and rode well, but with less 'slop' around corners. Hope you enjoy the tires.
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