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Gen1 & 2 Big Brakes, Wilwood or Chevy Brembos

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Gen1 & 2 Big Brakes, Wilwood or Chevy Brembos

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  #51  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:47 PM
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Hmm, really. Well, beside the fact that they neither make...NASCAR or F1 brakes, I'd say that's a pretty obvious fact that even the blind would notice..!
I have no idea what is your point. Something seemingly obvious to you may not be to others.


NOT meaning to start an argument here. It just really shouldn't take an F1 caliper to stop a 2800 car at 30 to 110mph, even OEM parts..!
Case in point, It take more to stop our 2800lb Mini than a F1 car with everything else being equal.
 
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  #52  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:00 PM
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Brembo vs Wilwood

Wilwood is very popular among the amateurs because they make lot of brakes for all models of cars. You can buy parts from their expansive catalog if you need a unique setup.

Here are the cost difference of SS pistons between the respective brands:

$570 for both front Brembo 4-pot calipers (calipers not included )


$88 for both front Wilwood 4-pot calipers
 

Last edited by pnwR53S; 06-13-2018 at 09:10 PM.
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  #53  
Old 06-14-2018, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Whine not Walnuts View Post
What is the caliper number you have as the ones I have listed here are the least expensive with the 6.4" pads (7812), not the 8" you have with the 7816s.
https://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/Cal...emno=120-14701

this is the kit, I wish I could find some cheaper rotor hats, I would like to have a spare always ready so I do not have to rebuild at the track.

https://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Br...uding+Cooper+S
 
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  #54  
Old 06-14-2018, 06:21 AM
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I screwed up as some how I was thinking the 7816's were 8" pads. They are the same surface area as the 7812's but are thicker with .60 compared to .49. They are smaller pistons though, 1.38 compared to the 1.75.

What has not been brought up are dust boots/seals. The 120-14701 specifically note " dust wiper seals " whereas the 120-13551 says " high temperature seals." I have an email string ongoing with some Wilwood Techs and will ask them about the matter.
 
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  #55  
Old 06-14-2018, 06:27 AM
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Also, whereas the Wilwoods have stainless steel pistons, I do not think the Brembos do.

Last night with the thought that the 7816 pads were larger in surface area, I was thinking the smaller 7812's were not going to pan out that well, but, now knowing they are the same surface area and that Mr. Blah said he did not notice any major difference of braking, the models I noted in this thread do appear to be a good option.
 
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  #56  
Old 06-14-2018, 06:40 AM
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there is a thicker rotor option, that's why the 7812 pads are around, adds rotor mass but it also adds weight, not something I want, and imo only good if you have venting problems so you could run longer before a temperature failure.

same physics still apply, you have to vent the heat away. I have never had a brake failure on the track, but I've always ran some type of ducting.

I did have a set of ebc yellows fail on me, do not run those below 25 % I think the material changes when it gets close to whatever they use to bond it to the backing plates, still worked but the torque dropped off really bad, even when cold.
 
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  #57  
Old 06-14-2018, 08:11 AM
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Those 2nd gen Brembos are crap. Many issues with folks using them on track days. 1st gen JCW/R56 calipers are better.
 
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  #58  
Old 06-14-2018, 08:39 AM
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lotta other brands swap on the oem Cadillac ats brembos they make brackets for a few cars like WRX and the BRZ/FRS
 
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  #59  
Old 06-14-2018, 10:57 AM
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I digitized both the R56 and the Wilwood 7812/16 pads. On the OEMs, the edges are chamfere and when I pull up a Hawk drawing of their pad, the chamfer amount is huge. The total friction area of the OEMs comes out at about 8.2 sq inches but only about 7.74 contacts the rotor but when you measure the Hawk and subtract out the chamfer area, the surface is only 5.4 so that when the pad is worn 50% the surface increases to 6.8. The Wilwoods digitize to 6.22 but I do not know whether they have any chamfer. Perhaps Mr. Blah can confirm whether they do or do not.
 
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  #60  
Old 06-14-2018, 11:00 AM
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you guys are entertaining........ When you are in the racing world, many of these teams are paid to run certain brake systems or given them free

search out the guys who are hell bent on winning and they will buy the brakes

in our particular Grand Am series with the Porsche's they HAD to run the factory brakes. So we HAD to fix the inherent flaws with them

just go to the track, really abuse your brakes, pull out the pads and see if they are tapered..... We can set here all day long and "talk" about how great so and so's brakes are
the truth is in the testing

most guys I've ridden around the track with don't even need anything more than stock........no joke
 
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  #61  
Old 06-14-2018, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Revolution Motor Works View Post
you guys are entertaining........ When you are in the racing world, many of these teams are paid to run certain brake systems or given them free

search out the guys who are hell bent on winning and they will buy the brakes

in our particular Grand Am series with the Porsche's they HAD to run the factory brakes. So we HAD to fix the inherent flaws with them

just go to the track, really abuse your brakes, pull out the pads and see if they are tapered..... We can set here all day long and "talk" about how great so and so's brakes are
the truth is in the testing

most guys I've ridden around the track with don't even need anything more than stock........no joke
Why does Nascar use Sunoco gas? Could be that Sunoco pays Nascar. What about Goodyear, could it be that they do a little payolla? Do you think Brembo has kicked in anything?

Remember this is a "race wannabe" brake thread, not a "track junkie thread." You want to spend $1k up to 3k on your brakes, its a free world go ahead. If you want to pinch pennies and go with the "budget" Wilwoods that I have posted here that is OK as well. It is also nice to have somebody that sells a very nice set of big brakes, along with so many other really great MINI mod parts, be completely honest and say that most don't need anything more than the stock units.

I am also doing research to see if I clip baseball cards to the spokes of my car wheels that I can pick up another 5 HP and 15 pounds of torque . . . .
 
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  #62  
Old 06-14-2018, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Whine not Walnuts

I am also doing research to see if I clip baseball cards to the spokes of my car wheels that I can pick up another 5 HP and 15 pounds of torque . . . .
7 pounds max, depending on ambient temperatures and whether they’re rookie cards.
 
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  #63  
Old 06-14-2018, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Whine not Walnuts View Post
Why does Nascar use Sunoco gas? Could be that Sunoco pays Nascar. What about Goodyear, could it be that they do a little payolla? Do you think Brembo has kicked in anything?

Remember this is a "race wannabe" brake thread, not a "track junkie thread." You want to spend $1k up to 3k on your brakes, its a free world go ahead. If you want to pinch pennies and go with the "budget" Wilwoods that I have posted here that is OK as well. It is also nice to have somebody that sells a very nice set of big brakes, along with so many other really great MINI mod parts, be completely honest and say that most don't need anything more than the stock units.

I am also doing research to see if I clip baseball cards to the spokes of my car wheels that I can pick up another 5 HP and 15 pounds of torque . . . .
thanks for agreeing........lol
I can get stock brakes with mods to work as good as Wilwoods........not sure what all the extra wasted brain power is all about here
 
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  #64  
Old 06-14-2018, 12:01 PM
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anything with equal piston size will have pad taper, I flip my pads over after each event on the wilwoods and the factory r53 jcw car.

the only thing wilwood gives me over my r53 JCW setup is SUPER easy pad changes, cheaper pads, and slightly better cooling

honestly the pad change without removing caliper is priceless they are worth it to me just for that
 
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  #65  
Old 06-14-2018, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Revolution Motor Works View Post
thanks for agreeing........lol
I can get stock brakes with mods to work as good as Wilwoods........not sure what all the extra wasted brain power is all about here
Hmmmm, does that mean you are developing your own baseball card mod option??? What are your projected numbers?
 
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  #66  
Old 06-15-2018, 01:48 PM
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Some may not be aware that Way Motors has their own big brake kits. One is similar to the Wilwood with .81 calipers and one is really beefed up with 1.25 calipers. You can check them out below. Appear to be some very good options from a good long time NAM Vendor. Need to get Way to chime in here on whether the 1.25s will push the tire out to the point that if you are lowered it will start rubbing on the plastic inner liner/fender trim.

https://www.waymotorworks.com/tsw-bdm-brake-kit.html

https://www.waymotorworks.com/tsw-mdm-brake-kit.html

https://www.waymotorworks.com/tsw-ldm-brake-kit.html
 
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  #67  
Old 06-15-2018, 04:14 PM
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We aren't discussing the latest and greatest racing setup, just an option for those of us that want a bit more performance without fade and breaking the wallet.

Originally Posted by Revolution Motor Works View Post
you guys are entertaining........ When you are in the racing world, many of these teams are paid to run certain brake systems or given them free

search out the guys who are hell bent on winning and they will buy the brakes

in our particular Grand Am series with the Porsche's they HAD to run the factory brakes. So we HAD to fix the inherent flaws with them

just go to the track, really abuse your brakes, pull out the pads and see if they are tapered..... We can set here all day long and "talk" about how great so and so's brakes are
the truth is in the testing

most guys I've ridden around the track with don't even need anything more than stock........no joke
 
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  #68  
Old 06-15-2018, 05:09 PM
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It's like I said over on Motoring Alliance when somebody asked why? Quite simple, "the itch."
 
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:26 PM
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Apologies if it's already been mentioned, but didn't some folks successfully use BMW 135i calipers with GP2 discs? Looks like it required a bit of tinkering. At the end of the day, you could probably buy a Wilwood Dynapro kit for similar coin and time.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...in-here-3.html
 
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  #70  
Old 06-15-2018, 08:36 PM
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Good brakes are not “cheap $$” and brakes not something you should try and save money on. A good deal yes, but not cheap.
 
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  #71  
Old 06-15-2018, 09:05 PM
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haute couture

Originally Posted by Dave.O View Post
Good brakes are not “cheap $$” and brakes not something you should try and save money on. A good deal yes, but not cheap.
This is one most entertaining thread. Whine deserves a brass hammer award for starting it.

Obviously the more you pay, the higher the fashion. Brembo costs the most so definitely haute couture.

Wilwood is like buying fashion from Target, for us common folks that aspire but on a small budget.
 

Last edited by pnwR53S; 06-15-2018 at 09:41 PM.
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  #72  
Old 06-16-2018, 05:14 AM
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Speaking of brass, the Wilwoods appear to have NPT threads so the MINI brake hose with metric threads will not mate correctly. The question is whether there is a metric to npt pipe nipple out there. What is the thread size/pitch going into the OEM caliper? If the fitting nipple exists, then there are some more pennies that could be saved.

Next, Wilwood got back to me on my question to them on dust boots. No, the two calipers I have noted do not have dust boots, only seals. To get a dust boot on a 5.25 bolt spacing unit the 120-15131-BK would be needed. The question is whether a dust boot is necessary? Thinking out loud the Wilwoods are stainless steel pistons so rust should not be a major concern. Also, the retraction of a piston upon pedal release is very minimal so how much impact is there with no dust boot? Wilwood said their true race calipers do not have seals as the heat generated during racing would impact the rubber significantly

I responded to them with the thought that a 1"/25mm caliper would be better for a MINI as it would have better heat dissipation than their .81 unit or the OEM .86. I told them that on mountain runs our MINIs can generate allot of heat but as the speeds are much slower than a track run, the force of the air does not develop to cool them better.

Last, I am going to reach out to Outlaw Racing Disk Brakes that is an Georgia based company. They have several different series of brakes and appear to be actively involved in racing. http://www.outlawdiscbrakes.com/about2.html#
 

Last edited by Whine not Walnuts; 06-16-2018 at 05:26 AM.
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  #73  
Old 06-17-2018, 09:32 AM
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I finally found a Brembo Technical catalog albeit from 2009. Figured if you can build your own bracket to mount a Wilwood, why not a Brembo and then why not a Brembo from another manufacture of car. Have found lots of Brembos on CL but trying to determine what size rotor they work on has been daunting and then don't even think about trying to figure out the piston sizes.

The thicker the rotor the more caliper options. Found a set of Chevy SS Turbo Cobalt calipers for $100 on CL. You can buy a set of new ones with pads for $400. Appears they are made for a 26 mm rotor. 350z calipers are another option, thinking they are 28 mm and the 370z are 32s.

I like Wilwood because their site is really flexible so you do not have to put the car make/model in but rather build your own brake system based upon sizes. Wilwood has 11.75 rotors for around $40, the hats are what cost the bigger money but sometimes you can find them on CL. The key is finding a caliper/hat combination with the MINI 4x100 bolt pattern, which you can do there.

Let me just say that I am not the type that listens to the car brake commercials or service places that say you need to put on new calipers when you put on new rotors. Soaking some poor woman well over $1,500 to $2,000 for new calipers and rotors when only rotors are needed irks my butt big time.

Just some thoughts from the crazy old guy here.
 
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  #74  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:52 AM
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the thing people always seem to forget about putting brakes on the car

piston size, line size and master cylinder size
there is a reason many of these "upgrades" end up working worse than the original stuff with just good rotor/pad upgrades
 
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  #75  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:06 AM
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^ Cannot agree more. More is not necessarily better. Piston sweep area must take into account the master cylinder size. Even if you have enough stroke, there is ease of modulation to consider. Same when you set up your 357 to be feather light on the trigger is not always a good thing. It is likely not very good for hunting squirrels.

You can find a lot of great discussions on American track car forums.
 
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