Hello all,

I've come in to possession of a never winter driven, fairly modified 2003 R53. I know you'll already ask me if it's lowered and what suspension I have, unfortunately I don't have the build sheets with me at the moment, but it doesn't appear to be more than 1.5" if not 1". I'll check back on that. I know this is a hotly debated topic – I've been through the threads.

On to the question. WIDE TIRES? Can I get set of 17x8 Team Dynamic 1.2's matched with a set of 225/45/17 Micheline Pilot Sport Cup's on to a 2003 R53 without issue? Front and rear camber is fully adjustable on the car, so there is that...

I'm also upgrading to a big brake kit – reco's, thoughts, guidance? Would 17x7.5's and 215/45/17 be better?

If you were going to drop ~4K USD how would you spend it on Brakes, Tires and wheels for 2003 R53?

NOTE: I don't like 15's, 16's are pain to find rubber for, so that leaves me with 17's.

 

The team dynamics 17’s will fit, but you may want to add a 8mm -12mm spacer behind them with longer lug bolts to have as much space as possible for a BBK kit like OEM Brembo’s and turning a rim 17x8. Clearing the inner wheel well liners from lock to lock.

Michelin SC’s are $281.19 each for 225/45/17

Dunlop StarSpecs will be good tires and the Dunlop’s are cheaper @ 150.20 each

Look into lighter wheels like the Enkei PF 01’s at 15.5 lbs each for only $245.00 each.

** you can get them cheaper then the price above which was from tire rack.

Rims make a huge difference and they will last much longer than your track tires.

 

Thanks Dave,

No concerns with tires sizing and rubbing?
Probably won't go with the Brembo's or BBS, looking at the Detroit Tuned kit – seems to be a nice middle ground.

 

PF01 don't seem to come in 17x8's – 4x100's. Just 7's.

http://enkei.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PF01.pdf

 

OK, how much track and autocross experience do you have or in the past?

For autocross what class do you want to be in? How often for events?

For track what are you doing? open lapping sessions vs competitive track events vs just for fun?

How much power are you at for your R53? Any plans to change that?

Confirming you have fully adjustable front camber plates? This helps with front negative camber to about -2.4 to -3 degrees which is needed for track but bad for street tire wear.

Are the tires to be used to drive to events or one set of tires for both street use (mileage per year?) track use? Or do you have separate wheels for street and track?

Why do you think you need big brake upgrade? Based on what information? What are the current brakes now? OEM, how worn?

Why do you think you need extra wide wheels and tires? While it could help under the right conditions since your budget is limited you might find better places to put your funds.

There is nothing wrong with an R53 for track or autocross OEM with a few mods for suspension and light wheels and the best race tires for the events you have. Doesn't have to be expensive.

But the minute you upgrade something or other then you need to match everything together and usually that means a larger budget. $10K to $20K is easy to do from a stock MCS.

If you are new to track and autocross then adding a little power is fine like a reduction pulley to the supercharger and maybe an ECU tune. Other stuff helps less for limited funds.

OEM brakes are OK except for heavy track use and known brake fade when you are out. You don't need a BBK. Upgrade brake pads, maybe some solid or slotted rotors, higher temp brake fluid is a good start and see how it works. If you don't go BBK then 15" wheels will fit over the brakes. Once you upgrade to BBK then you need larger diameter wheels and sometimes limit your choices. Wider wheels means more cost and more weight usually which means more effort to stop and accelerate. Key for performance is less weight in wheels.

There is nothing wrong with 15" tires for track and autocross and some are streetable so OK for limited street use. Or you can get cheap wheels and street 15" tires for daily driving and keep the track set for just track or autocross, that's what I do.

Michelin Pilot Sport Cups are good streetable (barely) race tires better suited to track on a road course not so good for autocross. Extreme Summer tires are good for autocross and street use (limited miles). Toyo R888R and similar race tires are also durable for street but not soft enough for fast autocross.

If you are new to autocross then most of the early events will be spent on learning so your mods and tires are secondary to learning how to drive which is completely different from track driving. A good driver with an OEM MCS could out drive a mid modded MINI on race tires.

Where do you live?

 

Myrddin -

Funny, a road race in SoCal a few weeks ago, had four Mini's running... One with stock 17" wheels, two with 16" and one with 15" wheels..."ON" the race track! The three with the 15" and 16" wheels, were obvious weekend race cars..!
As for no "good" 15" or 16" tires...what does that mean ?
I just swapped my 17'"s for 16" wheels. There were at "least" 25 different 16" tires, with 3 or 4 different DOT legal slick's also available...in 16". Took me a while to pick, but the Dunlops I bought handle very nicely, both slower 90 degree corners and at speed, and are quieter than the 17's I removed.

So yea...there is that..!

Mike

 

Thanks for the response.

I have been auto-crossing and tracking cars for the last four years, specifically in the vintage muscle category in a highly modified track prepped 1979 Trans Am – so a fair bit, but never in FWD car. I am well versed in tire wear and have gone through a number of Toyo R888 over the last few years. In fact, it's all I used to keep on the Trans Am as I get a club discount. I was using the Micheline's as they are likely to be my getting to and from the event tires and I like them. I have yet to decide on a track tire. I have some time.

I was trying to avoid getting in to all this, but if we must, we must.

The Mini was my uncles. As mentioned it is a never winter driven 2003 Cooper S – under 70,000KM on the odometer. It's been back and fourth to Detroit Tuned a number of times, I won't get in to what's been done to the engine and exhaust, but suffice it to say, it's currently laying down 190HP at the wheels. As for suspension, back in 2012, he went with Gen 1 Swift Lowering Springs paired with adjustable Koni shocks, there was a logic to this at the time. The camber is fully adjustable front & rear (Vorshlag Front Camber Plates / H-Sport Adjustable Rear Arms). There are a couple of other goodies, like sway bars, Craven Speed STD's, M7 STB's and rear chassis brace.

Sadly, it has the the stock R53 brakes, I know they aren't aren't good enough for track because they will fade within three hot laps at MoSport and with my experience modifying my TA, incremental spends cost you more in the long run, if you can afford to do it right the first time, do it right the first time.

I am happy to discuss tires and wheels and I know there are two core camps, 15's and 17's. I honestly can't stand the rims that are currently on the car so if I'm going to change it all, I'm changing it all and my preference is currently 17's, Tell me why I would want 15's and how would you track a car with brakes that fit within a 15" rim. I do obviously understand that they weight less.

My intention is to get familiar with FWD this season and then compete in TIME ATTACK next summer.

My preference would be to put down as much rubber as possible...but I understand you have more experience with MINI's than I.

Mike, tire selection in 16's is hit and miss from casual observation, I'll take your word that there is more. I know nothing about 15's. All I know about tires come from setting up 1979 Trans Am, so wider was better at keeping that rear end planted and laying down power.

My biggest issue is coming to grips with the understeer...WTF!?

 

An OS GIKEN superlocker LSD is the way to go for corners in a MINI.

 

you can get by with R56 S front calipers/rotors, the R53 jcw came with these, but the track pads are expensive. If you bump up to a bigger thicker rotor you are stuck with 17's and the pads are not as thick so they do not last as long. You can get a bigger rotor that stays narrow with thicker pads too, but the real big setup sacrifices pad width for more rotor width. One really nice thing about 15" wheels is toyo 225s and hoosier SM7 takeoffs, cheap fun. The wilwood set I run uses the 7816 pad, same pad size used by the miata wilwood setup, also same wheels so it means cheap stuff, I pay 100 $ for ST43 pads, vs 240 $ for g-loc/carbotech on the mini calipers. I cracked r53 jcw rotors, and I crack wilwoods. I now run some huge front bumper ducts and a splitter to get more air into the brakes, it has helped quite a bit with crazing and pad wear


I did a SCCA TT at CMP a couple weeks ago I ran 15x8 225 RS4 on saturday, and 17x7 215 RE71 on sunday, both sets had 3-4 heat cycles. I put down my best time saturday in the first session, a 1.53 at CMP. I ran 1:53's all day saturday and sunday, there was basically no difference in my laptimes. That said I prefer how the 15x8 feel on the track and for autocross, it changes the gearing quite a bit, I'm in 3rd on some corners with the 15's and in 2nd on the same corner with the 17's. The only time I do not like the 15" setup is on the street is my speedo is 5 % off, it's a little buzzy going 80 down the highway, rpms are high.

pretty easy to get rid of the understeer with a stiff rear bar, stiff rear springs, and a little more rake, FWD will force you to trail brake right to the apex, and that skill transfers over to RWD nicely, in the end fwd/rwd does not matter, if you put your foot in the gas the traction up front goes down

 

"Sadly, it has the the stock R53 brakes, I know they aren't aren't good enough for track because they will fade within three hot laps at MoSport....". I agree with MINIHUNE. Have been running HPDE's for 42 years and have been an instructor for over 35 of those. I've been tracking my R53 for 12 years now and have yet to lose my stock brakes. Remove the front brake backing plates and install ducting. Use the right pads, bleed religiously just before each event and use your brakes over the shortest distance possible in order to make the turn.

 

Dave – ya, an LSD is on the list. Been watching videos on what's involved. Wishing I had a pumpkin to swap, it would be so much less work. May bite the bullet and send the car out for that.

NC & Mr. Blah, fair points. I've only driven with the stock brake set up. I concede that the brakes are fine for Autocross. I wouldn't of thought that those Gen1 callipers with some tweaking would be enough for tracking the car. Having cooked my TA brakes once to the point of near failure, I will say I'm not all that keen on ever doing it again. Stoping 3000+LBS of muscle car with no brakes kinda makes a guy want to overkill his sense of stopping power regardless as to what he's driving.

I still don't like the aesthetic of 15's, but I hear ya.

 

the stock S are a little small up front, but the JCW aka r56 S fronts are a nice (and cheap) upgrade.

centric premium rotors are like 40 $ each, I can only get 2-3 weekends out of them and they crack but at least they were cheap

 

OK, thanks for the background info that helps a lot. Everyone's situation and experience is different and the approach can be fine tuned to your specifics.

I have done track and autocross on 15", 16" and 17" wheels and tires. The biggest benefits of 15" wheels are:
15x7 to 8" with offsets that clear or only require thin 3mm spacer in rear
Street or race tires in the 195 to 245mm wide range with small tire diameter for lowered gearing (faster at low speeds)
Lower cost and weights for wheels and tires
Can still fit over OEM front brakes.

215/40-17 is a possible tire size that gives short tire diam. 215/45-17 gives good tire selection but is tall so good for high end speed.

For under 200 wHP on an R53 I don't think you need to go too wide on the wheels and tires just to keep things in balance for less weight in the wheels which can be a big plus. Realize that light wheels will not be as durable to hard use so check them regularly for cracks even in as little as the first year.
I have had micro cracks in forged wheels (under 14 lbs for 17x7").

Understeer happens. While you can do many things to reduce it the biggest factor is how you drive. Skilled instructors for driving schools don't understeer no matter which car they drive. Why? Because they don't overdrive and they know where to slow down enough to avoid understeer.

Aggressive drivers will understeer in any car (RWD,AWD,FWD) sometimes for different reasons but always because they are doing things that could be corrected and refined.

Certainly you have good suspension mods that allow for adjustments to minimize understeer. A good goal would be to try to do adjustments and alignment to allow for controllable oversteer to neutral handling to minimal understeer depending on your comfort with each.

As for brake mods, again I think driving skill plays a huge role in overheating brakes. The best track drivers know how to drive to conserve brakes and tires so that wear and heat are kept to a minimum lap after lap. Less experienced drivers tend to overheat and overwear nearly everything.

I know R53 drivers in the past who were good with time attack, using wilwood front brakes and OEM rears. You might also check TCE brakes for options. Brake duct cooling is another good idea.

For tires later on, time attack benefits from very fast very soft rubber compounds which typically are not durable for road course track (Toyo R888R). So some compromise may be needed if you want to be competitive. Depends on your local rivals, see what they are running. Hoosier A7 are very soft but they also heat cycle and turn hard or wear out and cord.

To me, wheels and brakes hinge on suitable tires for your intented use. The other consideration is what is the optimal competitive setup for later on vs what can you use now to learn with on a reasonable budget? It's nice when you can keep the same wheels and just change the tires but not all tires come in the sizes you want. 15" sizes are not bad but not so wide up to 225/45-15 typically which isn't bad.

The other thing I have to help is a Quaife LSD which helps give me better traction considering we are FWD. It's costly for the part and labor.

 

I don't do Autocross, sorry killing cones doesn't interest me (JK!! ) but I have been involved in wheel to wheel racing or "on track time trials" aka Time Attack and Rally for roughly 20 years.

For me the stock (non-brembo) R53 / R56 Mini calipers and rotors do not have enough thermal mass to dissipate the kind of heat that a very aggressive pad can create even with ducting. I tried and they failed not to mention proper brake ducting is a mess with our front suspension.(Anyone want to buy some crazy molded carbon brake ducting? ). I understand if you are building a car to meet a class specification that is what you have to play with but if you aren't then build it for how it will be driven.

If you're bleeding the fluid every run you are not dissipating the heat and putting too much back into the caliper pistons and hence the fluid (or you are running ATE fluid and should try Motul RBF600/660 ) The bigger the caliper and rotor the more heat dissipation you have not to mention most aftermarket rotors have improved vane designs to help move more air through the rotor and some type of groove on the face to help with gas float on certain pad compounds.

My car is a bit higher than stock on the power side and I run the Stoptech Trophy BBK with under a 17" Enkei NTO3+M with a 205 P-Zero Corsa System (UTQG 60), AST 4100's and am pretty happy with the set up. The car sees long straight away speeds of 100-115mph and I have no fear of braking way later than most and I bleed my brake fluid at my oil change intervals

I don't have understeer, I have oversteer. Even with the stock sways and both my 4100 and Stock suspension (I do run additional caster). I have hesitated to install the OSG LSD I have sitting on my tool box because of this. If you are a late brake or trail brake driver be aware the R53 will rotate very easily when put on it's nose so before you change too many parts, get a good basic set-up and try and drive it hard and see what suits you best.

Having rambled on now... with your budget I would grab a set of used OEM Brembos ($600-800), throw pads, rotors, and stainless pistons / lines in ($3-400) or similar BBK. Get a set of light 17" wheels and good sticky 205 tires ($1500-2k depending on tastes) And a set of decent but not crazy coil overs ($1200-2k) and go to town.

 

Yes, so the basic question can be around driver needs for brakes- are BBK needed or not. If so then build wheels to fit like 17".

Sometimes how hard the brakes are used depends on the track course and track session time length.

Oversteer vs understeer can be managed with alignment, tire pressures, shock settings and fully adjustable sway bars. As long as the oversteer is predictable and controllable it can be OK.

Pirelli P Zero Corsa is a track tire. Tirerack says it's out of stock

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 in 215/45-17 $300 each, treadwear 180

Again, if autocross is a consideration then look at which class to run in and what limits of modding is allowed. With mid modded R53s in SCCA events usually Street Modified FWD (SMF) is possible or sometimes STX (DOT treadwear 200 tire limit).

 

Thanks guys. A great bunch of information to consume and deliberate.

 

A word about classing in Autocross.

Street Touring X is a good class if the tires you choose are going to be DOT street tires of 200 treadwear or more. Race tires cannot be used. JCW MCS is eligible for this class but not an MCS with reduction pulley- you get bumped to SMF.

SMF is a good class that allows for many mods and probably beyond what most budgets allow for. All reduction pulley supercharged MCS fit in this class. But Race tires are legal and required to be competitive. Also race wheels and tires that fit the MINI aren't the widest compared to some competitors who may run 275mm wide rims. A wide fender kit or fender flares or cut the wheel arches will allow for 9+ wide wheels.

What your local competition is may also be a factor, see what is running in each class for the events you want to go to. Meet the drivers and see how they finish compared to others. Anyone who can finish in the top 5 on raw time or Pax time is doing well. In general raw time is easier to do well on while Pax time relates to your class handicap, a higher Pax finish means you are driving well. The more modded the class the harder it is to finish high on Pax overall.

 

Oh ya, this much I have already experienced on my first outing with the car. At this point, I'm competing against myself and I'm cool with that. The cars in my class are beasts compared to the MINI.