Newly purchased R53 botched...
#1
06-14-2017, 10:42 AM
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Newly purchased R53 botched...
2004 Mini cooper S acquired 2 months ago. Its lowered on H&R springs with square 16x8 et25 wheels and 205/50-16 sumitomo a/s tires. Currently just a slight bit of camber. All bushings, suspension components are good however going over bumps it rubs quite severly and is damaging the tires when the fender eats into the edge of the tread. Also, the tires are newer and there doesn't appear to be any dry rotting. Tread is near 7/32nds all around. I get terrible understeer in any wet conditions. To the point that if i had to swerve at all or change lanes quickly when the ground is at all wet I'm going to lose it and crash. I'm hoping a tire brand and different size recommendation might help. I live in southwest Florida so its wet now all the time.
#2
06-14-2017, 12:33 PM
Ok, did it not show these when you test drove it? Usually rubbing is obvious especially over rough roads and with a full load in the car.
Sounds like you have two major problems:
1. Rubbing
2. Understeer
A lowered suspension usually means you have more negative camber front and rear and especially in the rear. You mention you think you have a slight bit of camber- how do you know how much? Without getting it checked by an alignment shop you have no real idea of how much camber there is by "looking".
Many shops that do alignment will not be able to do it once suspension is lowered and if using OEM suspension parts you cannot return some alignment settings back to OEM range.
Which tires are showing wear on the treads from hitting/rubbing the wheel arches? All four of them or only some? This will give you an idea of where camber needs to be changed or not and where more clearance is needed.
Check on the side of the tire for a four digit number that is for the date of manufacture, such as 4213 which means 42nd week of 2013. As tires age the rubber gets harder and chance for it not to provide traction especially in wet goes way up. If the tires are 6 years old or similar even if they have tread left then it is time to change them.
Sumitomo HTR A/S P02 (High Performance All Season tire)
see tirerack review
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=221
It isn't a bad tire new but old tires won't work well.
205/50-16 fits rims 5.5-7.5" wide, perfect for 6.5" wide rim. While it will fit a 16x8 rim it isn't a good match and won't use the tire well for performance or handling. This is usually called a "stretch fit" and commonly used for appearance for tuner imports. It's also a way to tuck in the tread shoulders for some clearance when the suspension is dropped or even slammed. Poor tire size with hard rubber could lead to easy understeer once tire grip is lost.
Camber-
If the front tires are not showing much wear on the treads that could mean the camber is not too bad. OEM front camber is -0.5 degrees and unless you have adjustable or fixed camber plates you cannot change/adjust camber in front. When you drop the suspension you automatically increase negative camber likely close to -1 degree or more. If you want to change camber you need either to change ride height (coilovers) or add camber plates.
Rear camber is always more negative with lowering suspension usually about -2.2 degrees or more vs OEM -1.2 to -1.4 degrees. Excessive negative rear camber usually increases understeer. For best handling on a track you want rear camber to be about 1 degree less negative than the front but I think if you check yours it will be reversed, hence more risk of understeer.
If you want to adjust rear camber you need adjustable lower control arms (there are upper control arms to adjust toe but you don't require those).
Do you have OEM front and rear swaybars? You have to look and see what you have, OEM ones are black, if you see they are colored or have holes for adjustment at the end of the bars then they are aftermarket and can be made stiffer or softer. Understeer is made worse by a relative stiffer front bar setting and/or a softer rear bar setting. It's common to choose a rear bar with a stiffer than OEM rating to reduce understeer but if you make it too stiff then you can get oversteer.
As for tires- how many miles do you drive per year? Less than 10,000? What is your tire budget? What do you use your MINI for? Only street use or any track or performance driving. Driving aggressively on the street is not "performance driving", it's still street driving. The absence of dry rot does not mean the tire is still good if it is old, in fact any dry rot is bad and the tire should be replaced. Also check the inner side of the tires.
All Season tires are better for treadwear, lower cost, more ride comfort, good dry or wet handling and traction but they do not come in sizes for 8" rims and lowered suspension. With a stock suspension you can use 225/50-16 but it is taller than OEM for tire diameter at 24.9" and you would need to have even more negative camber front and rear to make it fit but it's not going to be easy since the rims and tire size are wider than OEM. Trimming the wheel arch plastic or rolling the fenders or adding wide arches give more clearance for wide tires.
If you aren't concerned about tread wear and drive limited miles and you want good handling and performance that might work with a lowered suspension then another option is an Extreme Summer tire like-
Azenis RT615K+ treadwear 200
215/45-16 $121.45 each in stock at tirerack, fits rims 7-8" wide, perfect for 7" rim, tire diameter is less than OEM at 23.6" for more clearance. It has good dry grip but slightly less grip in wet, still very usable.
Extreme Summer tires offer some of the best handling and performance in the dry and can be used for limited track duty, performance driving schools, autocross, and still can be driven on the street or for daily use. They aren't as comfortable and they can be noisy.
Sounds like you have two major problems:
1. Rubbing
2. Understeer
A lowered suspension usually means you have more negative camber front and rear and especially in the rear. You mention you think you have a slight bit of camber- how do you know how much? Without getting it checked by an alignment shop you have no real idea of how much camber there is by "looking".
Many shops that do alignment will not be able to do it once suspension is lowered and if using OEM suspension parts you cannot return some alignment settings back to OEM range.
Which tires are showing wear on the treads from hitting/rubbing the wheel arches? All four of them or only some? This will give you an idea of where camber needs to be changed or not and where more clearance is needed.
Check on the side of the tire for a four digit number that is for the date of manufacture, such as 4213 which means 42nd week of 2013. As tires age the rubber gets harder and chance for it not to provide traction especially in wet goes way up. If the tires are 6 years old or similar even if they have tread left then it is time to change them.
Sumitomo HTR A/S P02 (High Performance All Season tire)
see tirerack review
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=221
It isn't a bad tire new but old tires won't work well.
205/50-16 fits rims 5.5-7.5" wide, perfect for 6.5" wide rim. While it will fit a 16x8 rim it isn't a good match and won't use the tire well for performance or handling. This is usually called a "stretch fit" and commonly used for appearance for tuner imports. It's also a way to tuck in the tread shoulders for some clearance when the suspension is dropped or even slammed. Poor tire size with hard rubber could lead to easy understeer once tire grip is lost.
Camber-
If the front tires are not showing much wear on the treads that could mean the camber is not too bad. OEM front camber is -0.5 degrees and unless you have adjustable or fixed camber plates you cannot change/adjust camber in front. When you drop the suspension you automatically increase negative camber likely close to -1 degree or more. If you want to change camber you need either to change ride height (coilovers) or add camber plates.
Rear camber is always more negative with lowering suspension usually about -2.2 degrees or more vs OEM -1.2 to -1.4 degrees. Excessive negative rear camber usually increases understeer. For best handling on a track you want rear camber to be about 1 degree less negative than the front but I think if you check yours it will be reversed, hence more risk of understeer.
If you want to adjust rear camber you need adjustable lower control arms (there are upper control arms to adjust toe but you don't require those).
Do you have OEM front and rear swaybars? You have to look and see what you have, OEM ones are black, if you see they are colored or have holes for adjustment at the end of the bars then they are aftermarket and can be made stiffer or softer. Understeer is made worse by a relative stiffer front bar setting and/or a softer rear bar setting. It's common to choose a rear bar with a stiffer than OEM rating to reduce understeer but if you make it too stiff then you can get oversteer.
As for tires- how many miles do you drive per year? Less than 10,000? What is your tire budget? What do you use your MINI for? Only street use or any track or performance driving. Driving aggressively on the street is not "performance driving", it's still street driving. The absence of dry rot does not mean the tire is still good if it is old, in fact any dry rot is bad and the tire should be replaced. Also check the inner side of the tires.
All Season tires are better for treadwear, lower cost, more ride comfort, good dry or wet handling and traction but they do not come in sizes for 8" rims and lowered suspension. With a stock suspension you can use 225/50-16 but it is taller than OEM for tire diameter at 24.9" and you would need to have even more negative camber front and rear to make it fit but it's not going to be easy since the rims and tire size are wider than OEM. Trimming the wheel arch plastic or rolling the fenders or adding wide arches give more clearance for wide tires.
If you aren't concerned about tread wear and drive limited miles and you want good handling and performance that might work with a lowered suspension then another option is an Extreme Summer tire like-
Azenis RT615K+ treadwear 200
215/45-16 $121.45 each in stock at tirerack, fits rims 7-8" wide, perfect for 7" rim, tire diameter is less than OEM at 23.6" for more clearance. It has good dry grip but slightly less grip in wet, still very usable.
Extreme Summer tires offer some of the best handling and performance in the dry and can be used for limited track duty, performance driving schools, autocross, and still can be driven on the street or for daily use. They aren't as comfortable and they can be noisy.
#3
06-15-2017, 12:08 PM
there is a Street term on cars with excessive negative camber (I can't remember what it is at the moment) but it is way stupid... before I offend anyone let me 'splain... first it takes the geometry of the suspension and throws it out of the window. You might have nice wide tires but the over aggressive negative camber greatly reduces the contact patch your tires have with the road surface so from stock settings where your contact patch is the size of the palm of your hand you end up with the contact patch of a bicycle tire (or about the size of a thumb print) this causes your lots of traction issues, not just stability... how do you stop 2K lbs of car moving 60 mph with contact patches that small, much less get it to turn. But like some of the fashion styles say like... the people that wear skinny jeans with a waist size based on their thighs, because that is how far they pull up their pants and have exposed underwear from the thigh to the natural waist because "it's cool". Hey don't get me wrong, if that is what they want to do, that's fine with me, and I'll defend their right to do so, but that still doesn't make it correct. Like altering the geometry of the suspension taking it out of spec, I could careless if they want to endanger themselves but it endangers everyone they get near on the road. Here in the Commonwealth of PA, it is Technically Illegal and the vehicle won't pass the mandatory annual State Inspection for being that way and for good reason. And again, I have nothing against lowering a vehicle either, just get the suspension geometry within spec.
Sorry for the rant.
Motor On!
Sorry for the rant.
Motor On!
#6
06-16-2017, 04:16 AM
#7
06-16-2017, 05:20 AM
In our area Slammed just means it has been lowered normally Bagged Suspension and the vehicle can be lowered all the way down be able to rest on the pavement.
Donks are cars that have been raised and really Large Wheels most people don't know that most states also have laws governing the ride height of vehicles and bumper height.
The massive Negative Camber cars are Onis, the tires are on the edge of the sidewalls.
Hey, whatever...
Motor On!
Donks are cars that have been raised and really Large Wheels most people don't know that most states also have laws governing the ride height of vehicles and bumper height.
The massive Negative Camber cars are Onis, the tires are on the edge of the sidewalls.
Hey, whatever...
Motor On!
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#8
06-16-2017, 05:32 AM
3rd Gear
#9
06-28-2017, 07:33 AM
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 11
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Ok, did it not show these when you test drove it? Usually rubbing is obvious especially over rough roads and with a full load in the car.
Sounds like you have two major problems:
1. Rubbing
2. Understeer
A lowered suspension usually means you have more negative camber front and rear and especially in the rear. You mention you think you have a slight bit of camber- how do you know how much? Without getting it checked by an alignment shop you have no real idea of how much camber there is by "looking".
Many shops that do alignment will not be able to do it once suspension is lowered and if using OEM suspension parts you cannot return some alignment settings back to OEM range.
Which tires are showing wear on the treads from hitting/rubbing the wheel arches? All four of them or only some? This will give you an idea of where camber needs to be changed or not and where more clearance is needed.
Check on the side of the tire for a four digit number that is for the date of manufacture, such as 4213 which means 42nd week of 2013. As tires age the rubber gets harder and chance for it not to provide traction especially in wet goes way up. If the tires are 6 years old or similar even if they have tread left then it is time to change them.
Sumitomo HTR A/S P02 (High Performance All Season tire)
see tirerack review
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=221
It isn't a bad tire new but old tires won't work well.
205/50-16 fits rims 5.5-7.5" wide, perfect for 6.5" wide rim. While it will fit a 16x8 rim it isn't a good match and won't use the tire well for performance or handling. This is usually called a "stretch fit" and commonly used for appearance for tuner imports. It's also a way to tuck in the tread shoulders for some clearance when the suspension is dropped or even slammed. Poor tire size with hard rubber could lead to easy understeer once tire grip is lost.
Camber-
If the front tires are not showing much wear on the treads that could mean the camber is not too bad. OEM front camber is -0.5 degrees and unless you have adjustable or fixed camber plates you cannot change/adjust camber in front. When you drop the suspension you automatically increase negative camber likely close to -1 degree or more. If you want to change camber you need either to change ride height (coilovers) or add camber plates.
Rear camber is always more negative with lowering suspension usually about -2.2 degrees or more vs OEM -1.2 to -1.4 degrees. Excessive negative rear camber usually increases understeer. For best handling on a track you want rear camber to be about 1 degree less negative than the front but I think if you check yours it will be reversed, hence more risk of understeer.
If you want to adjust rear camber you need adjustable lower control arms (there are upper control arms to adjust toe but you don't require those).
Do you have OEM front and rear swaybars? You have to look and see what you have, OEM ones are black, if you see they are colored or have holes for adjustment at the end of the bars then they are aftermarket and can be made stiffer or softer. Understeer is made worse by a relative stiffer front bar setting and/or a softer rear bar setting. It's common to choose a rear bar with a stiffer than OEM rating to reduce understeer but if you make it too stiff then you can get oversteer.
As for tires- how many miles do you drive per year? Less than 10,000? What is your tire budget? What do you use your MINI for? Only street use or any track or performance driving. Driving aggressively on the street is not "performance driving", it's still street driving. The absence of dry rot does not mean the tire is still good if it is old, in fact any dry rot is bad and the tire should be replaced. Also check the inner side of the tires.
All Season tires are better for treadwear, lower cost, more ride comfort, good dry or wet handling and traction but they do not come in sizes for 8" rims and lowered suspension. With a stock suspension you can use 225/50-16 but it is taller than OEM for tire diameter at 24.9" and you would need to have even more negative camber front and rear to make it fit but it's not going to be easy since the rims and tire size are wider than OEM. Trimming the wheel arch plastic or rolling the fenders or adding wide arches give more clearance for wide tires.
If you aren't concerned about tread wear and drive limited miles and you want good handling and performance that might work with a lowered suspension then another option is an Extreme Summer tire like-
Azenis RT615K+ treadwear 200
215/45-16 $121.45 each in stock at tirerack, fits rims 7-8" wide, perfect for 7" rim, tire diameter is less than OEM at 23.6" for more clearance. It has good dry grip but slightly less grip in wet, still very usable.
Extreme Summer tires offer some of the best handling and performance in the dry and can be used for limited track duty, performance driving schools, autocross, and still can be driven on the street or for daily use. They aren't as comfortable and they can be noisy.
Sounds like you have two major problems:
1. Rubbing
2. Understeer
A lowered suspension usually means you have more negative camber front and rear and especially in the rear. You mention you think you have a slight bit of camber- how do you know how much? Without getting it checked by an alignment shop you have no real idea of how much camber there is by "looking".
Many shops that do alignment will not be able to do it once suspension is lowered and if using OEM suspension parts you cannot return some alignment settings back to OEM range.
Which tires are showing wear on the treads from hitting/rubbing the wheel arches? All four of them or only some? This will give you an idea of where camber needs to be changed or not and where more clearance is needed.
Check on the side of the tire for a four digit number that is for the date of manufacture, such as 4213 which means 42nd week of 2013. As tires age the rubber gets harder and chance for it not to provide traction especially in wet goes way up. If the tires are 6 years old or similar even if they have tread left then it is time to change them.
Sumitomo HTR A/S P02 (High Performance All Season tire)
see tirerack review
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=221
It isn't a bad tire new but old tires won't work well.
205/50-16 fits rims 5.5-7.5" wide, perfect for 6.5" wide rim. While it will fit a 16x8 rim it isn't a good match and won't use the tire well for performance or handling. This is usually called a "stretch fit" and commonly used for appearance for tuner imports. It's also a way to tuck in the tread shoulders for some clearance when the suspension is dropped or even slammed. Poor tire size with hard rubber could lead to easy understeer once tire grip is lost.
Camber-
If the front tires are not showing much wear on the treads that could mean the camber is not too bad. OEM front camber is -0.5 degrees and unless you have adjustable or fixed camber plates you cannot change/adjust camber in front. When you drop the suspension you automatically increase negative camber likely close to -1 degree or more. If you want to change camber you need either to change ride height (coilovers) or add camber plates.
Rear camber is always more negative with lowering suspension usually about -2.2 degrees or more vs OEM -1.2 to -1.4 degrees. Excessive negative rear camber usually increases understeer. For best handling on a track you want rear camber to be about 1 degree less negative than the front but I think if you check yours it will be reversed, hence more risk of understeer.
If you want to adjust rear camber you need adjustable lower control arms (there are upper control arms to adjust toe but you don't require those).
Do you have OEM front and rear swaybars? You have to look and see what you have, OEM ones are black, if you see they are colored or have holes for adjustment at the end of the bars then they are aftermarket and can be made stiffer or softer. Understeer is made worse by a relative stiffer front bar setting and/or a softer rear bar setting. It's common to choose a rear bar with a stiffer than OEM rating to reduce understeer but if you make it too stiff then you can get oversteer.
As for tires- how many miles do you drive per year? Less than 10,000? What is your tire budget? What do you use your MINI for? Only street use or any track or performance driving. Driving aggressively on the street is not "performance driving", it's still street driving. The absence of dry rot does not mean the tire is still good if it is old, in fact any dry rot is bad and the tire should be replaced. Also check the inner side of the tires.
All Season tires are better for treadwear, lower cost, more ride comfort, good dry or wet handling and traction but they do not come in sizes for 8" rims and lowered suspension. With a stock suspension you can use 225/50-16 but it is taller than OEM for tire diameter at 24.9" and you would need to have even more negative camber front and rear to make it fit but it's not going to be easy since the rims and tire size are wider than OEM. Trimming the wheel arch plastic or rolling the fenders or adding wide arches give more clearance for wide tires.
If you aren't concerned about tread wear and drive limited miles and you want good handling and performance that might work with a lowered suspension then another option is an Extreme Summer tire like-
Azenis RT615K+ treadwear 200
215/45-16 $121.45 each in stock at tirerack, fits rims 7-8" wide, perfect for 7" rim, tire diameter is less than OEM at 23.6" for more clearance. It has good dry grip but slightly less grip in wet, still very usable.
Extreme Summer tires offer some of the best handling and performance in the dry and can be used for limited track duty, performance driving schools, autocross, and still can be driven on the street or for daily use. They aren't as comfortable and they can be noisy.
#10
06-28-2017, 11:25 AM
Get a dremmel tool and reduce the wheel arch black plastic in the areas that are rubbing. You can see where the wheel arch edges have been rubbed down already from use.
Check each wheel arch and you can also remove or file down any screw heads that are in the same areas.
The tire will also wear down when it rubs so look for that too or mark either the arch or the tire with white chalk and drive a little to see where it rubs off.
Rubbing is only one problem and is not usually part of understeer. Wheel offset that is too aggressive can lead to more rubbing risk.
What about the understeer? So how old are your tires? What does the sidewall four digit code read? If it is old then rubber is aged and hard so no grip when pushed.
Check each wheel arch and you can also remove or file down any screw heads that are in the same areas.
The tire will also wear down when it rubs so look for that too or mark either the arch or the tire with white chalk and drive a little to see where it rubs off.
Rubbing is only one problem and is not usually part of understeer. Wheel offset that is too aggressive can lead to more rubbing risk.
What about the understeer? So how old are your tires? What does the sidewall four digit code read? If it is old then rubber is aged and hard so no grip when pushed.
#11
06-28-2017, 11:34 AM
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 11
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Received 0 Likes
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Get a dremmel tool and reduce the wheel arch black plastic in the areas that are rubbing. You can see where the wheel arch edges have been rubbed down already from use.
Check each wheel arch and you can also remove or file down any screw heads that are in the same areas.
The tire will also wear down when it rubs so look for that too or mark either the arch or the tire with white chalk and drive a little to see where it rubs off.
Rubbing is only one problem and is not usually part of understeer. Wheel offset that is too aggressive can lead to more rubbing risk.
What about the understeer? So how old are your tires? What does the sidewall four digit code read? If it is old then rubber is aged and hard so no grip when pushed.
Check each wheel arch and you can also remove or file down any screw heads that are in the same areas.
The tire will also wear down when it rubs so look for that too or mark either the arch or the tire with white chalk and drive a little to see where it rubs off.
Rubbing is only one problem and is not usually part of understeer. Wheel offset that is too aggressive can lead to more rubbing risk.
What about the understeer? So how old are your tires? What does the sidewall four digit code read? If it is old then rubber is aged and hard so no grip when pushed.