I'd take an Exige S, though, if someone wanted to get me one... With a good driver, they are wicked, WICKED fast (and, sorry to say, much faster than a MINI (drivers being equal)).

 

Good luck with that at Road America. I think on a shorter track, or a track with a bunch of twisties, you're right--but 14-1 is a long, long uphill straight, and its a killer for my MINI. 3-5 is a long downhill straight, but 5 is such a slow corner, I can brake later and make up some of what I lose on the straight. But then the backside of the track coming into twelve is another long, long essentially straight run, and the HP some of these M3's and 'vettes have are just killers. I really don't even like being on this track with them. At blackhawk, bring 'em on...

I caught a standard S with my JCW S with no problem, and the driver of the standard S is a much better driver than me--just goes to show you what just a bit more horsepower means on this track. And cars/drivers I had no problem keeping behind me or catching at Blackhawk were blowing by me at RA.

One of the reasons I'd consider the Elise is that as I've gotten better, and hitting higher exit speeds, I'm hitting higher speeds on the straight, and once I get above 120, the MINI doesn't feel so stable anymore. Wasn't a big deal before as I wasn't carrying the speeds I am now, and Road America is the only track I get close to 130, but the car doesn't feel so great at those speeds, so much so that I don't push it past mid 120's. With the Lotus's acceleration and stance, its got to be more stable at speed. But I've never been on the track with a Lotus at the same time, just seen them running in other sessions. And if I got a Lotus, I'd get the basic Elise, an Exige or Elise SC is faster than what I'd want to run anyway.

On the other hand, I've found I really don't care so much about hitting very high speed--I'm happier on a shorter track with a top speed of a 100 than a long track with much higher top speeds, and it may simply come down to choosing better tracks to push it, and take it a bit easier at RA. Its just kinda hard to do when other cars are on the track, just something I have to get over. And its distracting when I have to wave by a line of 2 cars...Starting at the end, or near the end of the grid helps, but still..

But it was still a blast, as I had an fantastic instructor who was working with me on trail braking, which I hadn't really done too much of in the MINI (I've had some instructors who are adamantly opposed to trying it in the MINI). So maybe I just need to check the ego a bit, keep the speeds reasonable, and just work on technique at RA.

 

you obviously don't have enough horsepower.... I have no problems beating them around the track

I am in the advanced group too

 

Jan, you don't count, you don't have a MINI anymore, you're running more HP than the average Space Shuttle. You're car would fly at RA.

Plus, your GP is probably more stable at speed than my car, I just have the standard rear wing, no other aerodynamic help. I do have some toe in and negative camber in the rear to help. What type of top speeds are you hitting on the track, out of curiosity? RA is the only track where I get a little unsettled at top speed, I'm fine everywhere else.

 

HP doesn't make one fast unless you can use all of it, even if you're just going fast in a straight line. Neither does your run group. HP also doesn't make up for driving ability, although the Viper crowd certainly seems to think so... Dumping more HP into the equation is what I consider the 'Viper' solution - all Vipers are fast, but very few are driven that way around the track with any consistency. They sure are fast on the straights, though.

Personally, I'd choose a car with stellar handling and exceptional brakes over one with just 40 more whp. Of course, both is even better with the caveat that you can actually take advantage of the extra power skillfully.

I've passed lots of highly modified MCS' and lots of other cars on the track, killed modified e36 M3's at the autocross, etc. in my 'Justacooper', giving up a minimum of 40 whp in all cases - even so, there are obvious limits to what a car with exceptional handling and brakes that's giving up that kind of hp advantage can provide. I'd still never claim to be able to beat 'any' of those cars routinely or assume they could be beaten all the time even if it does happen from time-to-time.

To whit, I'll bet you still haven't yet run across the right Exige S with the right driver...

But, enough bench racing...

 

I take exception to the part of run group.....

no one from any of the run groups beat the car the last time out. Previously before on the top racing Evo's went faster

You may beat me in a parking lot but I will leave you for dead on the race track I don't blame you based on what you have seen at the track but the stroker is in a whole different world in terms of being able to get out of corners at warp speed

 

Gentlemen,

It's apples and oranges, you both have great MINI's one R50 and R53. Both are modded to the 9's and you are both great drivers. Most of all you have both given the MINI family great products and service to make our MINI's better.

Maybe some time we can all meet at an event and just run the he!! out of our MINI's and have a beer after.

 

it wasn't meant mean in any way....aaahhhh the internet

 

We need MC2 do do another challenge deal out wherever they did the last one and let all comers run what ya brung deal. The last one was pretty neat and some good info was in the mag. How about a West, Mid-America, East shootout done at a track near you.

now how about we get back to brakes

 

It may be time for you to make the transition to real racing, like Jerry did. He's having the time of his life, being pretty successful, and finding out the difference between club events and wheel to wheel....

But isn't this thread about track brake set ups?

FWIW, the Mini Mania kit works, but it's meant for those that put them on at the track, and take them off for the street. Gary Anderson was running them a bit, and since he doesn't change pads at the track, he didn't like them and sent them back. If you leave them on for street driving, you will tear them off. If you've got track tires/wheels and the like, they are a workable solution.

Matt

 

At some point, as the drivers get better, the HP makes a bigger difference. As you go up the food chain, almost all the cars are set up better with regard to brakes and handling. The difference in ability narrows. It allows the "viper crowd" to drive relatively like crap, and still be incredibly (maybe even dangerously) fast on the straights. The HP overcompensates for the bad driving, and this is what bothers me, and takes a little fun out of the track. Road America magnifies the HP difference, and minimizes the driving aspect to a degree. I'm still catching cars with relatively more HP than me, but some of these cars were running 455+ HP. I don't mind being passed, but the way these cars come up on you can be a bit unsettling.

I had a session on Sunday where I was running very well--hitting my marks, although I still had room to compress the braking zones--running better lines than a number of much faster cars, and for the first time, it really didn't make a difference--they'd come roaring up on me in the straights.

Looks like I'm talking myself into staying on more MINI friendly tracks that negate the HP and emphasize the driving. Thats what I like most about being on the track anyway.

 

Matt,
I'm fully aware of the series Jerry is running in. The cheating is rampant, makes NASCAR seem like amatuers

If you think I am going wheel to wheel in the GP you are loonier than I originally thought

but never fear... you may see something show up next yr when I can find the time and the right class to showcase a car.

now back to brakes............ anyone used these yet?

 

WE'RE WAITING TO HEAR ABOUT THEM BIG GUY.

 

Yeah, I'd definitely take it off for the street. By cutting the underneath lip, which wouldn't be very dramatic when the ducts weren't in, as you really can't see it it sits so far underneath the car, the ducts should sit fairly flush with the remainder of the lower lip. I'd feel much better with that than hanging it lower than the lip, as its going to be pretty close to the track. I'm not so concerned about shearing them off on the street--I'd never use them there anyway--but more concerned about potentially shearing them off on the track.

 

Drilled rotors, no thank you...Be interesting to see how these are working for people, but its going to pretty much limited to the R56 crowd.

 

Isn't overall mass of the rotor also part of the equation for heat sink? And heat dispersion will benefit from larger diameter because of greater surface area?

 

Drilled Rotors + Track = Very Happy Parts Dept

You'll crack them.

Might want to check around for a solid or slotted rotor in that diameter. I think TSW has some or will soon, call and ask Jeff.

 

This is another reason why the Carbotech pads work well on OEM rotors, because they don't transfer as much heat to the rotor as many other pads. That's why we call them rotor friendly.

As far as the R56 rotors, TSW is waiting on a shipment of the slotted rotor we've been running on the R53, R50 and R52's that will fit the R56 and JCW R53 brakes.

 

The pics that Jan has are of the new JCW caliper and rotor. They're not the old setup. I believe they're bigger frt and back as far as the rotor's go. Caliper is larger than JCW GP setup he has on his car.

 

Jan - no worries, I didn't take it that way... I fully agree that your beast would manhandle and shame many, many cars out there.

BTW, I can't wait to get your tune on my car to take full advantage of the work we've already done.

Someday we'll work on building an NA stroker motor for the Cooper, actually, trimmed to the 9's (which I understand you might be working on for some others). Call me crazy, I just like NA! Once the car's stripped and caged, it'll be pretty daggone quick with a stroker...

 

Todd and others have waxed eloquent on what makes brakes work and keeps them happy many, many times... But yes, there are a lot of factors at work.

 

cooling = long term capacity. It's a bit of an oversimplification, but it's a start.

So to increase capacity, you can go to a larger diameter, thickness or both and the price paid is some unsprung weight and rotational mass.

I'm kind of baffled by the comments that the Carbotech pads don't put as much heat into the rotor, and hence they are rotor friendly. If the heat doesn't go into the rotor, it goes into the pad and caliper, which is worse cause this is what leads to overheating of the brake fluid. So much so that there are people who sell thermal insulators to block heat transfer from the back of the pad, or special pistons, to decrease the coupling of heat generation from the caliper.

I'm thinking that "rotor-friendly" has more to do with the abrasive nature of the pad material than where the heat goes.

Matt

 

Right the R56S front rotor is 294mm X 22MM and the caliper is single piston and the rears are 259mm X 10mm, we make track pads for them.
The New JCW fronts are 316mm X 22mm with dual piston calipers and the rears are 280mm X 10mm with single piston calipers. We are working on pads for the R56 JCW brakes.

 

I did over simplified the statement and for this thread I'm going to get more techy.

Taken from the CT site,
3. What are thermal characteristics?
Engineering brake systems to handle such high temperatures is just as (if not more) important as engineering them to be powerful braking systems. There are four key elements for a system to handle high temperatures properly (as shown below).

• Surface Area: The more surface area on a brake system the better heat dissipation will be. Cooling veins (vents) are used in systems where reducing operating temperatures greatly increases surface area.
• Thermal Mass: A properly engineered brake system must be sized appropriately for each individual vehicle; to have the ability to provide enough power for a vehicle and to have enough material mass to properly handle the temperatures that specific car can create under heavy braking situations. To remove material from a system for size and weight reduction purposes, will also remove material that would have helped absorb heat and diffuse heat generated by braking. This is not recommended by Carbotech.
• Material Selection: Material selection is important in trying to control where the heat goes once generated. Using insulators can help prevent heat from being conducted to the brake fluid. Also in saying that, heat conductors can also be utilized to draw heat away from critical components.
• Cooling Air: Getting air to keep flowing on the brake system can also dramatically help reduce operating temperatures as well as improve performance. Open bridge calipers are becoming more and more popular do the ability to allow air to flow through the caliper and remove heat from the braking surface.

6. What is brake fade?
Fade, or brake fade is the reduction in stopping power caused by a buildup of heat in the braking surfaces (and in the case of drum brakes the arc of the brake shoe don’t match the arc of the drum in response to heat). Brake fade can also be caused by the brake fluid boiling. Compounds are held together by resins, these resins can revert to gas when high temperatures are reached. When this happens the brake pads can “aquaplane” on a film of gas created by the over heated resins. Many low quality pads suffer continuous fade at very low temperatures.

The bottom line of all the above is this, the CT pads do not get as hot or stay as hot as many others, cool off faster and do it without over heating the rotor or caliper. I hope all of this helps.

 

I talked with an instructor who drives a slightly modified MCS, stock brakes, who started with Mintex pads, then I THINK Ferado's (track pads, not street pads for both the Mintex and Ferado's), then went to Carbotech's--Xp10's on the front, XP8's on the rears--and he did say they appear to be more rotor friendly, at the expense of a little less bite. But he was very happy with them, zero fade, rotors holding up well, and he's willing to give up a little of the initial bite for the other factors--so what you wrote is probably spot on.