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Thanks guys. Good to know 949s are OK, as well as Kosei. I would be very happy if the Konig Dail-in would too as I hope to use mine set.
If you have a set of the Konig wheels you could just remove the rotors and hat, and remove the spacer from between the caliper and the it’s bracket. Reassemble the caliper on the bracket, without the rotor and without that spacer, this will reset the caliper to its 11.75” rotor location. Then trial fit one of the Konig wheels. You can approximate the thickness of the rotor hat with a couple of stacks of washers taped to the bearing hub. It is the radial clearance between the caliper and the wheel that is likely to be the issue, if there is any issue. Don’t be surprised if this clearance is only about 1/8” or less. Clearance to the spokes seems to not be the issue with these aftermarket wheels, at least that is the case for my Kosei and Enkie wheels.
I should also note that my 15” Kosei wheels fit over my custom Wilwood calipers, which are about 1/4” wider than what you have. The Kosei are 40 ET and no spacers.
If you have a set of the Konig wheels you could just remove the rotors and hat, and remove the spacer from between the caliper and the it’s bracket. Reassemble the caliper on the bracket, without the rotor and without that spacer, this will reset the caliper to its 11.75” rotor location. Then trial fit one of the Konig wheels. You can approximate the thickness of the rotor hat with a couple of stacks of washers taped to the bearing hub. It is the radial clearance between the caliper and the wheel that is likely to be the issue, if there is any issue. Don’t be surprised if this clearance is only about 1/8” or less. Clearance to the spokes seems to not be the issue with these aftermarket wheels, at least that is the case for my Kosei and Enkie wheels.
That is an excellent idea. Although when I compared the parts lists between the two brake kits I was pretty sure the part numbers for the brackets are different. Now that you mention the spacers it does make sense they likely to share the identical bracket. Right now the Mini is on the trailer and the trailer is parked in the service bay of our vast facility so a lot of work to just check the damn thing. I pulled the trigger already for the kit. I figure nothing money cannot fix including stupid. I am going to 15" or bust.
The spokes has massive clearance to the caliper. It is the bump on the wheel barrel that is the radial dimension constraint.
11.75 and 12.2" Wilwood factory kits are essentially the same but for the barrel spacer used to raise the mount height of the caliper to fit the chosen diameter. Options in color, rotor finish, calipers with or without dust boots etc have no bearing on the size. Any combo of these options can be had in both diameter sizes.
Most unfortunate, when I did my brief research of the cost to outfit another set of rotor and hats, I tallied up the cost and that leaded me to think the total cost is prohibitive compared to getting a whole kit. As I retraced the itemized costs it turns out the show stopper is the wildly overpriced torx bolts for the rotor hats.
Eddie apparently decided to use his own chosen bolt rather than the Wilwood Torx sold at unobtainium (element UM in the periodic table) price point. I too found that torquing them to the stated spec of 25 ft-lb severely taxes both the Torx socket bit as well the fasteners. I triple-checked that I didn't mistaken in-lb with ft-lb.
I just notice the forum posting tool is now broken again since it was fixed yesterday afternoon.
No posting of fotos of my adventure with 15" wheels for you folks. :-(
Very true. The line item costs of parts will forever be greater than the kit. However that's true of most products- including the car itself.
The torx head bolts are not a necessity really but at $1ea roughly I don't find them to be wildly costly. The 16pc set is $18. However the larger kits using the 1/4-20 ss bolts do run about $50 for the set- that's per rotor. Any 5/16-18 bolt will suffice for a lower cost if so desired. 25ft lbs is higher than I'd normally run them myself. 18-20 is ample, and like you say damage to the internal torx is a concern over that.
If you choose to consider a replacement set of hats and rotors again let me know. Depending up on the casting you wish to use the set will run about $400-450.
I will say that Todd at TCE has been very helpful to me in working to develop an oversized version of the 11.75/12.2” Wilwood BBK for my MINI as well as being a readily available supplier of parts for these brake kits. Todd put together custom hats and custom thicker rotors to go with a new set of calipers at a reasonable price.
To go from a 12.2” rotor to an 11.75” rotor you should only need rotors and hats (see below about the bolts). I’d check with Todd about a new set of hats and rotors for what you want. It should be less expensive than a full kit with calipers.
About the Torx head bolts these kits come with - I am not a fan of them, having had at least 3 where the head separated from the bolt section. No, these were not over torqued. At least one failed from winter salt corroding it from within the Torx hole to the OD of the bolt section just below the bolt head. The others failed in the same location from what appeared to be a lack of material in that cross section (the Torx hole went down into the shank of the bolt leaving very little material between The ID of the hole and the OD of the shank). My solution was to get a set of grade 8 standard, non-coated bolts. Not expensive to do. However, it is likely very easy to over torque a bolt like these if you do an “eyeball” torque job. A torque wrench is an absolute must for this assembly.
I run the 15x8 949racing and they fit, but wheel weghts need to be on outside lip..
So here is my update. With the 11.75" rotors installed, I removed the two caliper bracket spacers for the 12.19" rotor. Inspecting the clearances between the caliper and the smaller rotor I also removed all spacers to maximize the clearance of the caliper to the wheel. The brakes clear the Konig 15"x7 Dial-in with 35mm ET. There is a nominal 1/8" inch of clearance at the tightest spots (where the caliper bolts holding the two halves are). I wonder if that is also what you are seeing with the 15x8 949 Racing wheels. 949 has two 15x8 wheels. One is 35mm ET and the other 23mm ET. Which one do you have?
I know ideally with 15" wheels we prefer less positive ET to gain wider track as well as increased strut clearance as the tire rub at the fender lip is likely a non issue being smaller diameter tires. So for 15x8 I would think 35mm ET is preferred over the 23mm ET.
I run the 6ul +36, and I run spacers, 10mm front and 2mm rear
Thanks. Interesting! Are you using spacers because the front tires rub against your coilovers, or you just want wider track?
Konig 15" x 8" can be have for circa $125 each on Amazon shipped. It is also 25mm ET. I would prefer not having to deal with spacer if I can avoid them.
So here is my update. With the 11.75" rotors installed, I removed the two caliper bracket spacers for the 12.19" rotor. Inspecting the clearances between the caliper and the smaller rotor I also removed all spacers to maximize the clearance of the caliper to the wheel. The brakes clear the Konig 15"x7 Dial-in with 35mm ET. There is a nominal 1/8" inch of clearance at the tightest spots (where the caliper bolts holding the two halves are). I wonder if that is also what you are seeing with the 15x8 949 Racing wheels. 949 has two 15x8 wheels. One is 35mm ET and the other 23mm ET. Which one do you have?
I know ideally with 15" wheels we prefer less positive ET to gain wider track as well as increased strut clearance as the tire rub at the fender lip is likely a non issue being smaller diameter tires. So for 15x8 I would think 35mm ET is preferred over the 23mm ET.
You need to make sure that you have about 0.060” clearance between the OD of the rotor and the underside of the caliper. The thermal expansion of the rotor when braking is about 0.040 to 0.050 inch radially. If you don’t have enough clearance the rotor can bind against the caliper.
You need to make sure that you have about 0.060” clearance between the OD of the rotor and the underside of the caliper. The thermal expansion of the rotor when braking is about 0.040 to 0.050 inch radially. If you don’t have enough clearance the rotor can bind against the caliper.
I know. You have warned me about this before. But when you are wheel barrel challenged, you rob Peter to pay Paul. It is about spreading the pain.
I would not had imagine one can spend so much time and effort with choosing the tires, wheels, and brakes on the Mini. I am very tempted to order a set of Konig Dial In 15x8 with +25mm ET. From what I infer the Dial In and the 949 6UL are very comparable in weight and strength. Both are light and 12 spokes. My guess is +25mm ET would be more suitable for the R53 wheel well and Wilwood brake constraints over +35mm.
sold and shipped by Amazon
I always have trouble with wheel offset and constantly need to refer to the illustration. For positive offset, the lower the offset the more you move the wheel outboard. You increase the likelihood of gaining more clearance between the wheel barre's high spot and the caliper. What sucks is you cannot tell if the wheel will work until you test fit it.
I have a thought. As I have very little idea if the 15x8 Konig will fit, I realize that may be I should just order one from Amazon. Should it not fit as expected there will be less pain to go around for Amazon and me.
The single Konig arrived and I dry-fitted it at front and back. It is beautiful and weighs only 11.6 lb. Naturally the rim sticks outside of the plastic fender lips more than my 16x6 and 16x5.5. There is now comfortable clearance between the barrel and the caliper as the wider rim is moved outboard. There is just about right amount of clearance for the tire and rim from the Koni yellow. No interference with suspension though the wider tire might rub against fender liner at full turn. The tire will hang outside of the fenders by quite a bit and I am hoping no rubbing at full suspension compression as long as I choose the tire AR carefully.
I ordered the matt grey for better delineation between the tires, wheels, and wheel arches.
I also test-fitted the rear and it (and the tire also should) clears all suspension parts.
I am surprised I am not seeing 20% increase in price yet as these are precious aluminum.
A few more fotos. I hope this is not a case of if it is too good to be true, it likely is not. My main concern is the amount of tires hanging outside of the wheel arches especially at the back.
it appears there is room for wheel weight inboard
i happen to have some around to test
pretty good clearance from the Koni yellow up front and the tire should be OK too
here is the shape of the barrel that you can see it gives more caliper clearance owing to lower + ET
here is the clearance from suspension bits at the rear
The only way now to tell how all fit is to get some sticky tires. I am leaning towards Toyo R888R. Something only become apparent to me having closely inspected this Konig 15x8 wheel providing more clearance to the caliper is the design of the spokes where they meet the rim. They attach very outboard and this allow the ridge of the barrel to also to move outboard than say the 949 6UL 15x8 which has +36 ET. Of course the down side with the Konig's spoke being so far out they are far less protected from curb rash by the tire's side wall.
So essentially, Konig dial ins, in 15x8 with a 25 offset will work? Currently I'm running an xxr 530 15x8 20 offset for spring / summer /fall with a federal 595 rsr tire, and am really interested in this 11.75 kit.
A word of caution on fitment: Don't trust spec to tell you the whole story.
Two wheels can have the same specs: OD, width and "offset" yet one will clear by a mile and the other will need a wheel spacer.
Not all wheels are produced like those above. Many simply mill the mounting pad of the wheel down to achieve the desired offset ordered. The more they do that the less room you have from the caliper body to the back of the spoke. It's all about the shape of the spoke.
09-19-2018, 10:16 PM
so a lot of work to just check the damn thing. I pulled the trigger already for the kit. I figure nothing money cannot fix including stupid.
I am going to 15" or bust.
