We know that the (just-a) Cooper falls in to H stock, and that the Cooper S is in G stock. The MINI Cooper S JCW GP fits into B stock but where does the 2009 John Cooper Works hard top fit in to the SCCA classifications? B stock? G stock?

What about a MCS with JCW stage 1 engine and suspension mods?

 

B Stock.

All Mini Cooper S JCW 2006+ go to B stock.

It Sucks.

Without knowing the exact mods you mention in the last question, I would make a guess and say DSP.

 

I see a lot of people talking about how B Stock sucks for the JCW but it seems like an appropriate class to me - in my region (Cenla or Delta Region in Louisiana) a well prepared G Stock Mini with Hoosiers often beats any of the times produced in B Stock and this is with no JCW. We're talking about 350Z's, Rx8's, and STI's - the JCW might not be the winner on a national level as there's obviously stiffer competition in this class but the Cooper S dominates G Stock already so why would it go in that class?

 

I think you really have to look at the Nationals times to judge the car fairly, since driver skill can be all over the map at local/regional events. I'm no great shakes myself, but I've beaten a lot of cars that are several classes higher at local events.

I think the heartburn with putting the JCW in BS is that it's a pretty big jump from GS to BS, considering that the JCW is a fairly incremental improvement over the stock 'S'. If you look at the other cars in BS, many of them have a huge horsepower advantage over the JCW, and the JCW is the *only* front-wheel drive car in BS. Not that FWD is necessarily a bad thing in autocross, but the MINI also has a well-known tendency towards understeer, so the combination isn't ideal.

 

Good points, as I guess it could have gone in D Stock or C Stock, but i think that it's the level of "factory" mods that make it end up in B Stock including an increase in boost levels, strut brace, exhaust, full suspension upgrades, etc... I'm sure that all of the other cars in G Stock have similar sounding complaints since the Cooper S is so dominant. You really don't see factory racers in D Stock, C Stock is Miata's (rear drive as well with much lower hp than the JCW) so B Stock it is. Sucks that it's got stiffer competition there and down on hp (but hp is really kind of secondary in autocross, particularly in stock classes where weight and suspension go much further). AWD of course goes pretty far as well, evident in B Stock (although RX8's do pretty well too). And I see actually that the RX8 makes 238 hp and weighs 3,000 pounds and the JCW makes 215 and weighs 2700lbs so I'd say that there really isn't any advantage in hp there. Actually seeing those numbers I'm kind of surprised that the JCW doesn't actually do better in the class - I wander if it's just that some of the talent in G Stock haven't tried their hand at the JCW in B Stock. A good alignment and tire pressures will cure the understeering of the Mini.

 

The RX8 can run much wider tires, 285's I believe. The JCW is stuck with 225's. The RX8 wins hands down.

 

You can fit 285's on an RX-8 without interference, just not on the stock 18 X 8 wheels. 245 is probably the widest you can reasonably go in Stock class, since you have to use stock-size rims.

 

Okay, so tire width is an advantage certainly but 3000lbs is not. And the mini still has the shorter wheel base and better suspension. Front wheel drive vs rear wheel drive advantage - although there are some prepared crx's that still kick some **** vs rear drive cars. Mini destroys in slalom despite less tire width, although big sweepers goes to wider tires on the RX8. HP to weight is a draw really - in fact 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are almost completely even.

So again, I'm wondering if there just isn't national level talent purchasing JCW's for autocross purposes or if the JCW really is just outmatched in the B Stock Class.

 

Well, seven of the top eight finishers in B Stock at the 2007 championships were driving the RX-8, so I guess it's dominating BS about as well as the MINI 'S' is dominating GS (8 of the top 9).

Looking at the times in BS versus GS, the top BS cars were pretty consistently 1-2 seconds faster, which is significant considering the average times were only in the 33-second range.

So I guess the question is whether or not a prepped JCW is 1-2 seconds faster than a prepped 'S' on a 33-second course, because that's what it would take for it to be competitive in BS at the national level.

What exactly does the JCW kit give you, suspension-wise? Because if the shocks are different, then it's not really giving you an advantage over the 'S', since I don't think anyone at nationals runs the stock shocks anyway.

 

Wow, 1 - 2 seconds on a 33 second course is fast! I'd say that the JCW is still good for at least a second over the S. Different Springs and Shocks, Upper Strut Brace, Thicker Sway Bar in the front and rear, Bigger Brakes and 18 inch wheel option as well (don't know width but should fit wider than 225), and 40 more horses. This is all speculation on my part but that sounds pretty significant.

 

I guess we won't really know unless a talented driver decides to campaign a JCW in BS sometime in the future, but looking at the JCW upgrades, the shocks and front sway bar don't buy you anything, because those can be (and usually are) replaced under the Stock rules. I don't know how the springs differ, so there might be some benefit there.

There's also been some testing done that shows that a strut brace doesn't do much for the car's rigidity, and I don't see 18-inch wheels as really being much of an advantage because of the extra weight. (Although I'd be curious to know whether the GS cars at nationals are running 16-inch or 17-inch wheels, considering that I think they can run either size. If they're all using 16-inch wheels, that would indicate that the lighter weight is a bigger benefit compared to a larger diameter).

Likewise with the larger JCW brakes - I think they'd be nice for track use, but I don't think brake fade is enough of a problem during an autocross run for the stock brakes to be a limiting factor (especially since the regular R56 'S' brakes are no slouch, considering that they're the same as the first-gen JCW brakes.)

Really, the biggest advantage in the JCW package seems to be the extra 40 horsepower and the bigger rear swaybar. And while I haven't seen dyno charts comparing the new JCW to the 'S', I'm curious how much extra power there really is throughout the rev range, as opposed to just comparing them at the rev limiter. I know with the earlier JCW cars and the GP, a good chunk of the power increase just comes from the increased rev limit - at lower engine speeds, the delta is *much* smaller. I don't know how the course is typically laid out at Natonals, but at most of my autocross events, it's rare for me see anything above 5400 RPM, and I usually only get that high if there's a straight section at the beginning or end of the course.

 

Well you're definitely right about shocks and front sway bar being equal between the two. Stiffer springs front and rear has to be a benefit to a certain degree but maybe not a world of difference. I think that the 18" wheels being heavier means nothing if you're able to run wider tires, which is one of the arguments to the RX8's dominance - plus you can run lightweight aftermarket wheels. At nats everyone is running 16" wheels because of the tire options available vs the 17", not the difference in weight, so without researching the hoosier and kuhmo options it's hard to say if the 18" wheels have options available that are competitive on a national level. As for hp difference, with the mods that I have on my S (190 whp) which is about 220 at the crank there is a significant difference over stock - most being in the upper range but it comes on strong after 4,000 rpm. But, if you're not running at the high rpm range on the autocross course then you're not in the right gear in my opinion - in my region I frequently hit the rev limiter in 1st and 2nd gear (it's not a 33 second course mind you, but there still has the be some straighter section at nats or hp wouldn't matter at all and then the heavier cars are really at a disadvantage). The S2000 is a really competitive car in autocross and it makes all of it's power in the high rpm range (9,000 rpm redline). They just stay in 1st gear more than the other cars. And of course, the RX8 makes its power up high as well - it's a 1.3 liter rotary engine which isn't exactly known as the king of torque.

I just really am curious about this as I still think that the JCW could be competitive in the right hands, maybe it's still down vs the RX8 but we can't really know without a really qualified driver. There are so fewer JCW's available and national level mini racers will pick a regular S because it is dominant in it's class and I wonder if the JCW is simply getting overlooked as a competitor. Again it's purely speculation on my part and I could be way off, but it's good for conversation none the less

 

You will probably never find a stock JCW running in BS at the nationals. There's no point to it. The RX8's will clean their clock every time. The factory JCW's have been out for going on three years now, and none at the Nationals yet. Kinda tells you something.

On the local level, the only time I can come close to placing, is if the RX8's stay home.

There was a proposal to move the JCW's to DS, but the SEB squashed it for political reasons. So much for fairness.

 

No doubt Mazda builds a heck of an autocross car - look at the Miatas! You might be making the case in point that everyone else seems to support but I'm just wandering what your setup is in the JCW - are you running Koni shocks and Hoosier A6's and still getting your clock cleaned by the RX8's? I know that there are no JCW's at nats and it's probably because they aren't competitive, but on a local level as someone already said the biggest factor is talent and not vehicle. The fastest guy in Cenla where I'm at is in a Miata running sts2 on 140 treadwear tires making about 135 hp - he gets ftd almost every event despite others with full race comps and much, much faster cars. He'll be at nationals and likely will not even place in his class - talent wins and on local levels the talent is broadly scattered. I know in my Mini on Falken Azenis I've beat all kind of really fast cars including EVO's, STI's, 350z's, Corvettes, Porches, M3's, S2000's, RX7 Twin Turbo's (no RX8's in my club), etc... And I'm not anywhere near national talent or experience (only been doing this for 8 months and still on street tires and no limited slip (just installed, haven't raced since). No offense meant as you may be the fastest JCW out there - I'm just trying to compare apples to apples.
I just wonder, in the super competitive world of national autocross does the JCW get completely overlooked by the BStock talent because 7 of 8 top times are RX8's and people buy accordingly? Could it be that it's really not that far behind the rx8 but the little bit it is makes it unappealing to national talent? Or are you completely right in your analysis and the only way to place in B Stock is if the RX8's don't show up?

They talk about the 1 series BMW possibly being the hot ride in D Stock this year and I really have to think that the JCW would clean up in D Stock. Great news for JCW owners if that were to happen! Maybe my Mini enthusiasm goes too far, but I'd rather have a JCW than an RX8 anyday.

 

Wrong answer.

I just got info from one of the local hot shoes that drove a RX8 last year in BS.

 

Well, it's not like I've never been wrong before

Still, I find it interesting that he's running a 285mm A6 on an 8" rim, considering that Hoosier recommends a 10"-11" rim width for that tire. His tires must look like balloons on those rims.

That's still much wider than I'd recommend for that size rim, but if it works for him, more power to him.

 

Jason Isley the multi time BS National Champion is running the big size tires as well.

This is Zach one of our locals.


photo by Mark Mervich

 

Well the wider tires definitely win, no contest. Is it possible looking at those pictures that some beefier tires could go on a JCW? Just curious

 

Under the stock class rules with slicks on the R53 you are pretty much stuck with 225's. I have used 225/50/16's with et-42 rims and I got light rubbing on the rear control arms under load. It didn't damage the tire just removed a little paint from from the control arms.

 

Huh, well with 285 Hoosiers that's definitely an advantage.

 

I was looking through the registrants for the Nationals. Not a single JCW in BS. It's about 95% RX8's, with a few 350Zs and others thrown in.

 

Well the fact that there are 350Z's in there as well makes me wonder, because I really honestly think that the JCW has to be competitive with the 350Z. Nice hp but kinda chunky, and I run very similar times and even beat 350Z's in my car quite often on street tires and no limited slip. And I'm in a cabrio with a bit of extra weight. There's no doubt that the chunky tires on the RX8 are an advantage, and it may be that you can run that kind of rubber on the 350 as well. I know you're in a JCW, and don't know your level of competitiveness on a national scale, but I wish we could get some really serious competitors running Koni's and A6's in JCW's to confirm or deny that it is mismatched terribly in it's current class (the fact that there seem to be so little again only seems to support my theory that they aren't there simply because no one is trying). In fact, the fact that no one even entered a JCW in BStock at nats actually seems to support this as well because it means that no one is even attempting it, unless hardcore JCW racers on serious set ups are getting creamed on a local level in their region. We had a Southwest Divisional Event in my region and here are the results:

http://www.cenla-scca.org/results/sowdiv1_pax.htm

Note the raw times at the top of the page, paricularly Jeff Schaadt in the GStock Cooper S and Eric Jones in the B Stock RX8. Very, very close - and to be fair, the pax is worse in B Stock than G Stock so Eric Jones apparently ran a better race in theory as he finished ahead of Jeff Schaadt. Now I have to believe that Jeff would have run more than a few tenths of a second faster in a JCW, which would have won B Stock at the Southwest Divisionals. This regional event includes to the best of my knowledge Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Arkansas and although it's not nationals it's a better example than just a local event. Also noteworthy is Dan Pedroza in the MX-5 behind them, who Sports Car Magazine is saying is a serious candidate for the win in G Stock this year.