Good point! I think you may be on to something. I bet the manufactures list the spring rates somewhere. It would be interesting to know what they are. My guess is that the rear springs are a lot stiffer than the front.

 

I had the H-Sport set. Turns out that the fronts are actually softer than stock. In an effort to kill the excess oversteer I went up to H&R in the front. I don't have the #'s in front of me, but I think that give's me around 420 lbs front, 320 rear. I may swap in the H&R rears.

 

Seen one run yet? It's soooo tempting.

 

Yes, I noticed a lot of oversteer at my last autocross. I run camber plates, H-sport springs and an H-sport competition rear sway bar (set to the stiffest setting). By oversteering problems I mean that even in slaloms, the tail was wagging much much more than I would like.

The interesting thing is that, the previous autocross, the car handled incredibly well, but that was about six months before (I took some time off).

What changed? Alignment settings did not. None of the hardware changed. I kept the tire pressures (cold) the same. Here's what I know did change:

- the weather (it was much cooler when oversteering was a problem)
- my tires (Falken Azenis) were the same, but I swapped front and rear to even out wear...

I still am not sure, but I think temperature played a role, but perhaps my tires are just off.

Veni, why don't you try a fresh set of tires? I am curious what you find out, b/c my next change would be to adjust my rear sway bar (which doesn't seem right since I know it's worked well in the past).

 

It was about the same when the tires were new. Your car may have changed due to strut wear. H-Sport springs and Western PA roads killed the stock struts pretty quickly.

 

Well, I guess that's an excuse to move up to Konis... thanks for the tip, I'll look into it. My vehicle is fairly low mileage, though, and the roads here on Mars (OK, Texas... but nearly as flat as Mars) aren't too bad.

 

I decided my stock struts were toast when the car would start pogo-ing around sweepers: boing, boing boing. I could actually feel it pounding off of the bump stops.

 

Mininutz,

You are running waaayyyy too much bar in the rear!!! I am surprised that you didn't snap-spin at earlier outings. Stiffer settings generally mean less grip for that axle. I would think the Competition Bar on its softest setting is still too much.

 

I did notice in your gallery that your Mini rides unusally low in the rear for H-Sport springs. They tend to lower the car 0.75" to 1.0". Are the Koni Yellows spring perches lowered in some way? Anyhow, if your rear suspension is riding the bump stops, for whatever the reason may be, that will cause severe oversteer regardless of your setup.

 

I think its cause he is accelerating in that picture.. if its the same one Im thinking about in the autox pic..

I drove my sisters stock cooper yesterday, and I have forgoten how neutral it already feels. there is alot more body roll with her car than mine but the stock cooper is not bad at all. I might have to retract my statement about bigger bar is better. Im going to be looking into going down to a 19

 

Well, it's true that inducing oversteer is easy in my car, but it has been relatively easy to manage... just a bit of steering compensation or some throttle tends to straighten it out. Sweepers are fantastic with the stiff rear bar, I can go in quite fast and with some trail braking the car behaves nice & neutral, with the front and rear tires slipping at what feels like an optimum angle.

On my last outing, things were just crazy, and I'm suspecting it was the colder weather. I'm not sure where you live, but here in Texas things are usually on the hot side, which may explain why my stiff sway bar doesn't usually create problems for me.

 

You are correct! I also assumed that the picture was taken under acceleration. However, the car had so much "rear end squat" that it reminded me more of rear wheel drive car w/ an independent suspension (e.g. Porsche 911, Triumph Spitfire/TR6, or a Datsun 510) not what you typically see w/ the MINI or other front wheel drive cars. Hence, I figured that it may have been excessively lowered somehow.

 

Carroll Smith said it best: "A car is like a primate, it's got to squat to go."

 

Good quote. I suspect that he was talking about RWD cars though. Less weight transfer is better in a FWD, as it gives you more traction.

Different setups work for different people. While it is very possible that going to a less stiff RSB will improve things for some cars, I'm happiest with my H-Sport Comp on the stiffest setting (same for the previous RDR 22mm bar). Oversteer is very minimal unless lift quickly mid-turn to deliberately rotate the car. Normally the car breaks away into a neutral 4 wheel drift which is adjustable with the throttle. The Quaife made a big difference here.

There is no single perfect answer for everyone.

Scott
90SM

 

Yes, but the main question is: Is the setup fast? We are guys who like to compete in our Minis, and not just pose. Who's with me.

 

I guess I'm missing your point. I'm a poser?

Scott
90SM

 

Nah, you're both saying the same thing. It's all about speed. I'd guess that there may be some folks who would love my previous "rear tires on banana peel" feel. I need more stability, but that's me.

 

With my current configuration, I never get a "rear tires on banana peel" feel, with the exception of R compounds in cold weather where the fronts heat up and the rears never do. I have to very deliberately induce oversteer for the back end to break away at all.

Other folks with the same RSB and RSB setting can get dramatically different results, including that banana peel tail happy response, depending on other aspects of the setup.

Like you said, what matters is that it works for you and you turn your best times.

Scott
90SM

 

I'm not in SM, but this moment made me decide it was time to back off the rear swaybar a notch:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...75683434395089

 

 

Imagine doing that once an event. It gets old. Fast.

 

I just read a bunch of your posts about oversteer problems and it sounds as though this is problem for those of you that love to race. And while that may come some day down the road, I'm simply looking to improve the handling in my Just a Mini for street and some twisty driving in the mountains. Am I correct to think that the stock sway bar ought to stay and maybe just lower the height?And while I'm looking to benefit from your experiences, are the runflats we got talked into buying something that ought to go bye bye?
Thanks
mrminimmel

 

Howdy,

The zombie thread comes back to life just in time for Halloween. Bwahahaha....


I would endorse your changing the tires to a good performance non-runflat. Makes a huge difference in handling and comfort. That being said, I'd think long and hard before doing any suspension mods. The engineers that designed the Mini did and excellent job creating a quality ride with very good performance. When you start futzing with the suspension's geometry there may be an improvement in 1 aspect, but there is ALWAYS a cost in another. Ask me how I know.

Lowering = less movement + bottoming out on bumps

Camber = better cornering + mega tire wear

Heavier springs = tighter ride + hemorrhoids

etc, etc.

Plus, with me, 1 mod leads to another mod which suggests a 3rd mod until you succumb to mod madness.


Party on,

V3

 

Thanks for the straight forward answer. I know I got into a racers forum because one question led to another and so on. I'm thrilled with the Mini and it's a great car to drive . Common sense rules and good quality high performance tires to replace the runflats sounds like a solution designed to help increase performance, handling and marital harmony. Yahoo!
Thanks,
Pete

 

Under street conditions the most common thing we see with MINIs and any FWD car is understeer. This is built into the design of the car for safety reasons and if you take a corner too fast you will experience front end push.
The way to control it is to slow down hit the brake a little.

RWD cars often will oversteer with the back end getting loss of traction and comes around. For the MINI you can get oversteer but you have to make enough changes in suspension and tires to encourage this. In normal driving it's possible to get oversteer but most times it's held in check. On the street you can easily make a little adjustment in upgraded suspension to dial out oversteer just to be safer.

On the track there are fewer things to hit so a little oversteer is tolerable if it happens. Best is to reduce understeer and aim for nearly neutral steering. The MINI goes where you point it and you stay in control.

The reason why rear swaybar is often mentioned is it is relatively low in cost about $240 and comes with two or usually three holes for adjustment of firmness, it is easy to install and it doesn't interfere with other upgrades so it can be done alone or in combination.

You can keep everything stock and just change rear swaybar put in middle to soft setting and the MINI will tend to handle with less understeer for street driving but probably not oversteer unless you use a very thick stiff bar and set it to stiffest setting (hole closes to the bend).

Upgrading suspension to lower the MINI requires springs or coilovers with cost about $250 to $2000 or more plus labor $400+ and you have to align the car with any ride height change another $100.

Upgrading tires is good and there are many to choose from but better handling usually means faster tire wear and firmer ride with higher rolling resistance and lower mpg. Comfortable longer wearing all season tires don't handle as crisply as summer tires or runflats. Alex@tirerack.com can tell you about your options on non runflats based on your wheel size.

Camber cannot be easily adjusted in the front, you can change it unless you add adjustable or fixed camber plates that are $200+ to $450 plus labor and alignment.
Camber in rear is a little adjustable for the 2005 MINI. Otherwise you would need adjustable lower control arms ($250) plus labor and alignment.

Usually you do not need to add front swaybar unless you compete or track your MINI.

Summer non runflat tires are good in weather down to about 35 degrees and not good for any snow.
Ultra High Performance All season tires are good in cold or light snow.

What size wheels do you have?