H&R Sway Bar Kit

  #101  
Old 04-09-2019, 09:52 AM
MikeMJCW
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elsanib and myself have the Eibachs F/R, (there was one other guy too but don't remember his name). My car came close to my expectations of how a mini should handle after I installed the JCW Pro coilovers. (stock was to soft for me). But there was still to much roll at turn in. IMO Eibach did a great job balancing the car with the F/R bars (using soft setting on the rear).
 
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  #102  
Old 04-09-2019, 11:41 AM
TVPostSound
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Originally Posted by J_L View Post
I took a quick ride in TV's car, and yes it does corner super flat. With H&R springs on the adjustable OEM shocks, he has a pretty great system there. Assuming he is ok with the harsh ride =)
Yes, its stiff!!
Remember, I also have the H&R springs too. They seem to be fairly well matched to the DDC dampers.
 
  #103  
Old 04-09-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by J_L View Post
Hi Eddie- Yes I agree with all that. But to be clear, I had the coilovers for a while first, then added the bars. The coilovers alone were near my limit of harshness, and I didn't expect that the bars would affect the ride as much as they did. I think you're saying that those brands are better than ST? The ST are made by KW in the same factory, same specs. Same ride and quality.

As for the mix of various bars, springs, shocks... agree, it's all connected. It would be very cool if one tuner had a complete package, but I kinda don't think anyone does. Yes, H&R has the bars, and also springs, but then also coilovers. Is it the springs or coils that they designed the bars around? Eibach has their bars, and then springs... but which shocks would they have you run? And how much development and testing are they really doing, especially on our low-sales-volume minis? Are they just making thicker springs, checking fitment and getting them out the door? Or did they try many versions on both street and track? Honest questions, if anyone has talked to them.

As they say... there's a bit of black magic in suspension tuning. I think all we can do is hear others' recommendations (especially from a tuner who gets feedback from a lot of customers, like Way), and experiment.

Cheers
J_L - Understood... Appreciate the clarification.

To be honest, when I changed out my sway bars, I too was surprised as to how much stiffer the whole car became and I only changed out the front and rear bars; the the MINI sports suspension springs and shocks remained. The MINI shocks didn’t last long after that and I replaced them with the Bilstein B8. That was another eye opener as they were far superior to the MINI shocks and the street ride is firm but good enough; the wife still likes it. On the twisties, she likes the car better now with the sway bars and B8s than before as she says the car “seems more stable”.

My note to the Bilsteins and Konis (shocks I have experience with) was in reference to the MINI shocks, which I had thought you had in the car with the bigger sway bars. My mistake. That wasn’t a comment about the ST/KW shocks; I have heard a lot good things about them.

One comment that I have heard from a person setting up race cars was that when adding larger sway bars you need to soften the springs. I wasn’t able to get a good reason why, though. However, my own experience and maybe yours may say that the ride becomes too stiff, even for a race car. The STs likely have springs that are stiffer than the MINI springs, although I can’t say for sure as I have been unable to locate the sring rates they use. Because this is all interconnected, could it be that the ST springs are much to add that size sway bar to? A big guess here?

Your comment about a bit of “black magic” in suspension tuning is spot on. There are just so many things that come into play for a one-size-fits-all to be good for anyone. Driving style is a big one from what I can tell. There are also the trade offs, as have been mentioned. What I wish manufacturers would do is to list the specifics about their products (spring rates for springs, dampening rates for shocks, etc) so you can do your own mixing and matching. But then you would need a Dr. in suspension design just to do coilover change. No, it is not easy.. Just listen to the announcers of a stock car race; those team are making suspension adjustments on the fly.

If you get to try any of those other products, let us know your thoughts. This is one way for us to learn.
 
  #104  
Old 04-09-2019, 01:20 PM
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I like the term "Black Magic" as each car is different and responds differently to mod's. The most neutral (sliding into corner) cars to me have been Alfa Romeo's (driven them in Italy). This doesn't mean that they corner faster than a car that has some understeer.
I will reiterate that I am happy with the Eibach setup. Would've been nice if the install labor wasn't so much tho.
 
  #105  
Old 04-12-2019, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeMJCW View Post
I like the term "Black Magic" as each car is different and responds differently to mod's. The most neutral (sliding into corner) cars to me have been Alfa Romeo's (driven them in Italy). This doesn't mean that they corner faster than a car that has some understeer.
I will reiterate that I am happy with the Eibach setup. Would've been nice if the install labor wasn't so much tho.

An F1 motorcycle champion 30 years ago (Kevin Schwanz) explained his perfect setup:

When I dive into a corner, and feel my front tire sliding (understeer), and I can throttle up to cause my rear tire to slide (oversteer)
that is when it handles best!!!
 
  #106  
Old 04-12-2019, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by TVPostSound View Post
An F1 motorcycle champion 30 years ago (Kevin Schwanz) explained his perfect setup:

When I dive into a corner, and feel my front tire sliding (understeer), and I can throttle up to cause my rear tire to slide (oversteer)
that is when it handles best!!!
All of that, and no roll cage!!!!!
No fear....

Unfortunately, for a FWD cars, throttle-on induces understeer; throttle-off induces oversteer. A little simplistic, but it is the reason that, if the rear of a FWD car starts to slide out, you want to get on the gas to correct it. If you get off the gas, you will likely spin it (massive oversteer).
 
  #107  
Old 04-13-2019, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Eddie07S View Post
All of that, and no roll cage!!!!!
No fear....

Unfortunately, for a FWD cars, throttle-on induces understeer; throttle-off induces oversteer. A little simplistic, but it is the reason that, if the rear of a FWD car starts to slide out, you want to get on the gas to correct it. If you get off the gas, you will likely spin it (massive oversteer).
Thats why just a rear bar makes it dangerous!!
 
  #108  
Old 05-14-2019, 06:19 PM
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For those following this post about H&R bars, and the issue with the rear bushings.

I have been in contact with H&R in Germany, after some back and forth with them telling me they've never heard of this issue, they've
agreed to look into it. Ive sent them picture etc. Butdragging their feet.

I did find a solution!!! NM 25 mm bracket and bushing works wonderfully!
They sell them without the bar!

H&R Bushing VS NM Bushing and Bracket



 

Last edited by TVPostSound; 05-14-2019 at 09:49 PM.
  #109  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by TVPostSound View Post
For those following this post about H&R bars, and the issue with the rear bushings.

I have been in contact with H&R in Germany, after some back and forth with them telling me they've never heard of this issue, they've
agreed to look into it. Ive sent them picture etc. Butdragging their feet.

I did find a solution!!! NM 25 mm bracket and bushing works wonderfully!
They sell them without the bar!

H&R Bushing VS NM Bushing and Bracket



Thanks for posting. Nice find.

I’ll apologize in advance for this request... But, would it be possible to post one more picture, taken a little further back to show the sway bar and the bracket? I am sure it is just me, but I am struggling to figure out what I am looking at in these pictures; maybe because I haven’t seen the sway bar assembly. I understand that it is the bracket, bushing and swaybar, Just not seeing it right. Sorry about that. Now that I have a Gen III Cooper, I should take a look.
 
  #110  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:47 AM
TVPostSound
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If you observe the collar between the H&R bushing and NM bushing, there is a wear mark.
The NM bushing allows space between the collar and frame.
Eliminating the need to do this:
 
  #111  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:13 AM
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Perfect!
I understand.
Thanks, again, for posting.
 
  #112  
Old 05-17-2019, 09:39 AM
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That’s a great solution! Props to NM. Now if they would make their own front bar too...
 
  #113  
Old 05-17-2019, 09:48 AM
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SHHHH!! NM doesn't know I bought those for their competitors bar!!!

Not many MINI owners want to spend money on a front bar install, along with the propaganda that we only need a rear bar, is keeping sales down.

Only majors will spend the money on jigs, NM outsources, so it needs to be a sizable production run has to be a big one. Not worth the investment.

How many people really bought the front and rear H&R besides us??
We both had bushing design issues, and H&R (Germany) is telling me, Im the only complainant.
So 2 people known here, you and me.
 
  #114  
Old 05-18-2019, 04:13 AM
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I planned on doing all three - rear, front, and tower in all due time.
 
  #115  
Old 05-18-2019, 02:10 PM
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I installed the NM bracket and bushing,

J_L and I both had it wrong trying to add spacers and washers.
The ride improved dramatically!!
The mov below the pic shows how the bar is supposed to fall under its own weight.

 
Attached Files
File Type: mov
IMG_2884.MOV (1.35 MB, 12 views)

Last edited by TVPostSound; 05-18-2019 at 02:21 PM.
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  #116  
Old 05-18-2019, 02:21 PM
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Oh, I received an email from H&R in Germany!

The revised bushing is in production!!!

Maybe they read this post.

Meanwhile, the NM is perfect.
I found out NM use the Prothane bushing from the 19-1213 kit using their own custom aluminum billet bracket.
 
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