Hello everyone,

So I just got my CMS about 5 days ago and have been learning to drive stick on it. I drove stick one time 10 years ago, and then once more a few months ago. However, I would say I'm actually pretty good at it (having watched tons of videos, done research, practiced "air shifting" in my old automatic), so maybe I'm 75% of the way to perfect.

However, I have some concerns about the CMS that I wanted to pose here to see if I should take it into the dealership or not, or to make sure these are normal (considering I've never owned a manual car before).

#1: Whenever I am moving slowly, say 15mph in 1st or 2nd gear (happens in both) I get these "lurches". Whenever I press on the accelerator or let my foot off the accelerator I get like a quick double-lurch, bum-bum, then it keeps going. Not sure if this is attributed to it being an ALL4, of if I'm in the wrong gear, I have no idea. But it's super annoying in parking lots/stop and go traffic when I can't even put my foot on the gas or take it off without these constant, quick double-lurches.

#2: What's it supposed to feel like when you put the gar into a gear? Is it supposed to be ultra-smooth like you put the stick through a wide open gate? Are you supposed to feel any friction like you're locking something in? When I shift, in the last little bit of the throw it'll feel "grindy" or have some texture to the feeling as if I'm pushing it into something or locking it into something. A lot of times, if I'm just in a parking lot, I'll shift into 1st -- get that textury feeling -- shift back into nuetral then back into first, only any time I do it after the first shift there's no feeling at all and it's buttery smooth falling right into place. Not sure if something isn't tight enough in there or what, but I just want to make sure I'm not feeling something that I need to go have checked out.

#3: What RPM's do you guys shift at/cruise at? With this jumping feeling mentioned in #1, my dealer said I should just be shifting higher because Mini's like to be revved much higher than normal. I've driven an automatic my whole life and am not accustomed to knowing when to shift or really listening close to the engine. I'm not used to the engine being so much louder when I take it up to 4k to shift and cruise at 3k etc. Also, when I do this, I get up to like 20mph in 1st gear alone, and everywhere I read people say 1st gear is for 0-5mph or something. I literally can't accelerate from a light to less than 15mph in first or something, lol.

Anyway, I hope all the above made sense, and please let me know if I need to take my Mini in to have any of that checked out.

Thanks,
tgoodspe

 

Hi tgoodspe,

#1: I think the lurching that you describe is normal. The same effect in my Honda Civic (w/ manual transmission) was less noticeable because the engine wasn't as stout (lower compression?), and the transmission was 'squishier', or more forgiving.

You can either try to modulate the on/off of the accelerator pedal more smoothly to avoid the lurch (light drop in accelerator pedal at first to let the engine-drag mesh with the engine), or, press the clutch. It depends on how much you're slowing, how long you'll be slowing, etc.

If I'm headed toward a red light, sometimes I'll shift to a neutral position, let out the clutch, and let the engine drop to idle.

#2: Not sure on this one, my manual CMS (2011) has a fair amount of friction in the gears, but it feels normal to me.

#3: I definitely tend to drive at higher RPMs, but this doesn't mean I'm giving it a lot of gas or accelerating hard. For example, when driving moderate speeds on downtown surface streets, I'll only be pressing the accelerator between 0% and 5%, and I'll keep the RPMs in the 3k - 5k range as move through the gears. It's nice to use the engine to control speed (engine brake), and have a lot of instant acceleration on tap when needed as well.

On parkway type streets, I'll move to a higher gear to settle the RPMs down to the 1.5k - 2k range.

I don't really actively think about the shift points, it's just natural after driving manuals for so long.

 

Here's a thread on that very subject that was started a few days ago. There's lots of good advice to be had. Read thru it.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-manual-2.html

 

Hi,




1) Its normal. make sure you press the clutch fully when you want to change gear when you want to park.
2) its normal. you will get used to it.
3) cruising is around 2000RPM. gear change at 3000 unless you're in a sporty mood. then the red is your limit...

 

#2 The first time you do it you are aligning the teeth of the gears which are interlocking (meshing). It's easier to do it again because the gears are then already aligned.

To get a really pronounced sense of what the gears are doing:
With the engine off, parking brake on, and the car on a flat surface; depress the clutch and shift to neutral. Let the clutch pedal out and then shift in and out of all of the various gears. You can feel and even hear it working.

 

1. If you are feeling lurching typically it is because you are going to fast or slow for the gear you are currently in, or are shifting into a gear while going to fast or slow for that gear. You may need to feather the clutch a bit or give it more/less throttle to compensate. Typically it is from too little power/speed while in a particular gear or letting off the clutch too quickly.

2. Putting the car into gear should have a little feeling as long as you aren't playing around with the gears. If you are putting it in and taking it out and putting it in...(hehe) you may not feel any real "announcement" of entering the gear especially if you are just sitting idle or with the car off.

3. Shifting is going to depend on multiple aspects. How fast you are accelerating (and plan to continue accelerating). If you are on an incline/decline. If you are trying to conserve gas. Taking a car up to 3-4k on the tach is typical for standard driving. If you are shifting into a higher gear and the car feels like it is breaking a bit as you shift and let off the clutch you might either be shifting a bit late or not giving it enough throttle as you are letting out the clutch. If you are getting a lurching (car wants to go faster) you might be going to slow when you shift into a higher gear.

 

#1 modern engines including the MINI have computers capable of keeping the engines running at really low speeds that would stall an older car with no computer. If you are just coasting at really low speed put the clutch in. Then reengage as you do when starting from a stop. Over time you will develop a feel for what speed/gear is subject to lurching.

 

Try turning on sport mode and see if that helps. It seems to give a bit more throttle that makes the low gear smoother.

It also stiffens the steering which feels better to me.

 

Lurching (jerking) is caused by lugging the engine. Lugging the engine is when you're in too high of a gear and should gear down. It's going to read silly to some people but here comes one of my descriptions on using the manual transmission:

Think of a 10 speed bicycle and you're riding along nicely on flat and level pavement in 8th gear. Everything is flowing nicely. Now you come to a slight rise and it starts to become difficult to pedal (lugging). What do you do? Gear down a gear or two and suddenly it becomes easier. Then you come to a real sharp incline and what do you have to do? Gear down perhaps even into 1st and even at that it can be very difficult to pedal. If you're in first and the road levels out suddenly you're pedaling too quickly (revving the engine). Shift to a higher gear.

The same thoughts apply to the matching of the engine and transmission in your car.

I would suggest you get a friend, relative, neighbor or someone who has lots of experience driving a manual and ask them to spend a little time helping you out. If you stumble along on your own the cost can be excessive (new clutch).

 

I understand the lugging the engine thing, which is what I was worried it was. However, it happens even in first gear at like 15 mph. There's no way that's too slow for first gear.

And to some above comments, it's not when coming to a stop or anything. In that case I do put it in neutral and stop, etc.

It's mostly when I'm going through town or on a highway in slowed down traffic and I'm cruising along at 10-20mph in 1st or 2nd. No matter how slowly or quickly I let off or press on the accelerator, the second it's engaged or disengaged I get that big double-lurch. It doesn't seem right that I should be feathering the clutch in 1st or 2nd or something at 20mph...

Should I just go to the dealer and ask for someone to ride around with me, recreate the experience and see what they say about it?

- tgoodspe

 

Not sure about everyone else, but very rarely do I drive around in first gear; it gets me of the line, but on city streets, I'm quickly into second.

I would say that if you're cruising around in first gear at close to 20MPH, the lurch you're feeling is the "engine braking" that was mentioned above. Next time you're out...pay close attention to the revs and which gear you're in and report back (have someone take a video even)

I would agree that you should have someone with experience give you a refresher lesson, but it wouldn't have to be from the dealer.

 

It may seem corny... but I show this video in class to help explain manual trans units..


And this one.


When you shift from gear to gear - you are moving the synchronizer sleeves over the gears to lock them (or unlock them) from the power flow inside the transmission.

A unit inside the transmission called a interlock prevents you from engaging more than one gear at a time.

The clutch is a large disk that connects the engine to the transmission.

Just make sure the clutch is pressed all the way down when shifting... move the stick .. release the clutch... and then step on the gas. At no time, other than 1st gear should you ever press the gas AND the clutch at the same time.. that high speed friction is what shortens the life of the clutch.

Foot off gas... clutch down.. wait 1 sec.. shift.... clutch up... gas.

You'll get the smoothest shifts ever with the lest amount of wear on anything that way..

And in the Mini you can actually let the clutch out nice and easy in 1st gear.. and once the clutch is up.. THEN press the gas.. the car will prevent itself from stalling.. (to a point)..

Good luck.

 

This is a great way to get a feel for your transmission without any other distractors.

Shift points depend on your conditions and goals. On level ground if I'm trying to save gas, I'll short-shift the hell out of it (around 2-2.5k) and jump to sixth as fast as reasonable while staying light on the throttle. If I'm trying to race a Dodge, I usually shift around 5-5.5k to stay deep into that sweet sweet torque.

Everything comes down to practice, practice, practice. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Practice getting smooth and your shifts will get fast. You'll never be perfect; that's what continues to make a great manual shift drive so rewarding and engaging!

 

Based on the description, I still think it's the transition between when the engine is pulling the car, and the car is pulling the engine (and vice versa).

You need to apply/release the gas pedal very slightly during the transitions to allow the energy between the two to sync up under a low load (due to slight movements of gas pedal) to avoid the lurch.

Also, I do think the lurching effect is more prominent in an AWD versus FWD.

 

Like I said, it doesn't matter how lightly I press/take-off the gas, once engaged or disengaged at all, it double-lurches.

Also, to an above point, it happens most prominently when my RPM's are sub 2000. When my RPM's get to 3000 in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd (it happens slightly in 3rd) I can let off the gas and it's and smooth.

 

So when I'm shifting to a higher gear, like 2nd-6th don't push on the gas again until my foot it completely off the clutch again? I obviously always depress fully to the floor, but everywhere I've watched/read says release to the biting point and then see-saw it with gas and clutch as you release. Never just fully release clutch then apply gas again.

Also, you can start in 1st without having any gas at all? Is this viable at a stop light, or is this more to get that idle start? When I do it my engine seems to be whining for more power and groaning as it starts to go.

 

Then if it doesn't matter how much gas you give it, it sounds like you are letting go of the clutch too quickly.

Since it is when you are shifting (correct?) not just driving along and it happens, you need to let out the clutch slower.

The RPMs make a difference. Here is something that might help. Take a look at the RPMs when you are going 15mph in 1st gear to see what it is at. If you are downshifting from 2nd gear into first, what RPM is it at when you are doing it. If you are at a much different RPM you are going to get a rough transition if you let off the clutch too fast. The RPMs need to match (and will force match) themselves as you shift.

Even experienced drivers can screw up shifting transitions based on matching RPMs. I think you lugging at 15mph in 1st upon shifting probably has to do with coming in with too many or too few RPMs and letting the clutch out too quickly before the car has transitioned to the new necessary RPM for the new gear.

 

We're all making our guesses 'by long distance'. The sooner you get someone with experience to spend some time with you actually driving your car the longer your clutch will last.

 

I agree. I'm probably just going to take it in to get a clear answer.

And for all those talking about gear changes, this "double-lurch" issue has NOTHING to do with gear changing. I'm talking about being IN GEAR and cruising along. I can be in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd going any speed from 5mph-25mph and if I press on the gas (no matter how slow or quick) it double-lurches, let off the gas (no matter how slow or quick) it double-lurches.

 

That does sound like you are driving at quite high revs in a fairly low gear for the speed so as soon as you lift off the accelerator, engine braking is trying to slow you down. Be ready to dip the clutch in such circumstances and possibly shift to a higher gear where the engine braking won't be as strong (and nor will the acceleration be if/when you press the accelerator again).

 

No, it only happens at lower RPM's. Like if I'm going 12mph in first/second at 1200-1800 RPM it happens. If I get above 2000/2200 RPM's it smooths out, if I'm at 3000 RPM it never happens.

 

I tried some slow speed coasting today. Power on/off in 1st and second from 15 to 20mph was not easy to do smoothly due to the low gearing multiplying the effect of the boost coming on. I'm in third at that speed in a parking lot.

 

Sounds to me like you are just not giving it enough. The engine is the same engine designed to move the lighter hardtop. The CM is quite a bit heavier and then throw in the All4, there you go. From what you describe in this post about 1200-1800 lurching and then > 2000 none, it sounds like you are being a bit too light on the gas.

Try starting out in second gear, which is difficult, but possible. I have a CMSA4 as well. If that is behavior (slightly more pronounced) then I would say get used to giving it with slightly more gas than you are accustomed to. And I say that because when I drive our Convertible (same engine) and go like I do in my CountryMan I spin the tires when taking off until I adjust for the difference in car.

Also, if you can drive a stick with this clutch you can drive any stick in my opinion. The 2013+ is the improved clutch, I would hate to see how the prior one was. Have been driving stick for about 30 years and this is by far the worst I have had.

 

I don't know if I'd call it the worst, I think it's finicky, but one of the funnest cars I've ever owned.

The clutch engagement area is certainly narrower than most cars I've owned. Someone mentioned in this thread to make sure the clutch goes all the way to the floor, but I never go beyond the engagement point. You can feel it by putting light pressure on the shift lever when clutching (coming out of the gear), and you know another half inch on the clutch is disengaged. It helps make for a fast and smooth engagement in the next gear.

When my wife drives my car, I feel like I need a neck brace. She needs more practice.