Spent my spare time over the past 3 weeks doing the following to my son's car - 70,000 miles
- New WayWorks timing chain kit (wow - they answer the phone!)
- Rebuilt turbo with TurboLabs kit (wow - they neither respond to emails or answer the phone!!)
- New Detroit tuning oils lines to the turbo
- New water pump
- New Idler pulley
- New weird tensioner thing
- New front oil seal
- new valve cover gasket
- New Spark plugs

Full disclosure - I did not disconnect the battery.

Car turns over but does not start. Pulled a coil to see if there was spark at the plug but did not see any(not 100% sure I did this correctly)

Checked voltage at coil plug - it was 12.0 even with ignition on.

Perhaps I got the timing chain in off-time, but I'd thing it would cough and belch - I am getting no ignition.

The 15 amp fuse in slot 10 is good.

I do not have a scan tool - I am looking for recommendations though.

Any other thoughts - other than I am an idiot for not disconnecting the battery - are welcome!

Thanks - Harvey - Redwood City, CA

 

Disconnect the battery for a bit and reconnect.

Check the green wire (ground) on the valve cover.

Did you use the locking tools for the timing chain?

 

I will give that a try.

FYI - the green wire is clean and tight.

Yes - I used the locking tools for the cams and the locking pin for the crank. I did not have the mini pretensioner tool so installed everything that was a part of the timing chain replacement - with the new tensioner last - before I took off the cam tools.

 

Timing could be your culprit on this. You should first scan it anyways to seek for clues. A compression check is easy and won't hurt to do, just in case if your timing wasn't done correctly then this is a good check in case the valves get bent. You can then check your timing alignment by opening up the valve cover again and turn the crank to TDC. Align your flywheel locking pin and see how do those timing brackets align on both cams. Where the brackets should tetris together, it should be completely geometrically straight. If there's any angle to it, then run a trigonometry function to figure out that angle. On intake cam gear of 40 tooth, It'll be about 8 degrees per a tooth you jump on the cam gear. On exhaust gear, it should be the same tooth count, so same 8 degrees per jump if it's off alignment. I've posted an example below for the calculation when one of my customer's intake cam jumped a degree in advance. It did start, but idled roughly.



I've done more than enough timing job for MCS now, each time after I finish torquing those TTY bolts and after releasing the locking pin and alignment brackets, I'd go on and hand-turn the crank a few more times then check timing again before closing the valvecover back.

A word from experience: Torquing those cam bolts and the crank bolt can be tricky. And if you didn't get them torque'd correctly, you may risk slipping the gears, and this will end up causing bent valves, hence why I asked you to check compression, too.

 

Ok- rechecked the timing chain and it is dead on. Ran a scan and found a host of fault codes- among them were no signal from MAf or intake air sensor. Ant thoughts?

 

More info:

Fault codes:

2711/Not present/DME tank cap
2EF2/not present/DME:intake air temperature sensor, signal
2F8F/present/DME: Engine shutdown time, plausibility
2B51/ not present/ Air-mass sensor, signal
301 E/not present/Enable line, MSA activation

OBD trouble codes:

P1 5E8 - refer to vehicle service manual
PO100 - Mass or Volume Air Flow A circuit


so seems like something going on with the MAF, at minimum, but would that keep the car from starting?

 

For the MAF and IAT sensors, you'll need to check those prongs and see if they slipped out of the housing. This happens a lot, especially with the engine coolant temperature sensor.

For engine to start and idle correctly, ECU relies on AT LEAST these readings and they have to be correct:
Engine RPM - Crank Position Sensor
Air Temperature - IAT sensor
Air Flow - MAF sensor (though some instances, they can purely be running on absolutely manifold pressure sensor)
Throttle Position - Throttle Position Sensor
Engine Temperature - Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor.

Go after these sensors and see if you can find something abnormal about them, at least make sure all the electrical prongs are in the plug housing and not slipped away.

 

Yupetec - Thanks for taking the time to reply. I am heading out for two days but will take a look at these when I return and report back to the group. Harvey

 

Ok - i had a few minutes before leaving torun some checks. I was able to check all the wiring connections except the tps as it take a lot of undoing. It was also in the most untouched area of the car. The wires to coolant ts, iat, maf, cps seem good. I did not remove the cps as it was not removed or worked near.

I tested for spark on the #`1 cylinder with one of the old plugs and there was spark although i cant tell if it was full power. I sprayed start-up fluid in the intake pipe from the turbo and got nothing.

I am really perplexed as to what to check next.

I am hoping for more good guidance as my frustration level is at defcon 4!!

I also put in a new battery yesterday but have not registered it. I dont think this is a contributor but thought it best to include all info!

Help!!!!!!

 

You're sure your fuel delivery is all good, right? Are you able to log some numbers? Fuel rail pressure is quite critical for engine to work, too, if you can get that reading in PSI, we can probably get some hint.

 

as strange as this might sound, I had a mini that didnt want to start despite replacing many sensors. at the end of the day, it turned out to be the engine wiring harness.

there was another fellow in NY when his car wouldn't start all of a sudden, in his case, it turned out to be the key fob.

and there is that fuse box when it gets wet, the car wont start.

 

Yupetec - I’m not sure and it is a
suspect. I’ll check it when i
get back but will need to pick up a tester.

The only thing that confuses me is that I thought spraying the starter fluid would have given it a moment or 2 of ignition?

 

Today I did the timing procedure on my 08MCS as it follows

BEFORE STARTING Cams and flywheel already locked into place with special tools, put a small line of nail polish on each camshaft against each locking tool, and a small line on one teeth of the flywheel against the flywheel housing, this in order to check time when i finished

1. On my work table locked the two main guides, prelubed the new timing chain and crankshaft sprocket
2. Put the guides in place, aligned the crankshaft sprocket with the oil pump sprocket and inserted the crankshaft pulley hub into place
3. Finger tightened the crankshaft hub 18 mm bolt
4. Installed the 3 E45 bolts (timing chain guide bolts to the crank and cyl head) torque= 22 ft-lbs
5. Installed intake (vanos) and exhaust sprocket - finger tight
6. Installed chain tensioner to 48 ft-lbs
7. Tightened both cam sprockets to 15 ft-lbs
8. Tightened intake cam sprocket 180 degrees
9. Tightened exhaust cam sprocket 90 degrees
10. Installed special tool to counterhold the crankshaft pulley hub
11. Tightened crankshaft 18mm bolt to 37 ft-lbs, then another 180 degrees
12. Removed everything (special tools) and turned the engine by hand 4 times and stopped on timing position

Heres the deal, after turning it by hand, the camshaft locking tools installed straight into place, no effort at all, but when trying to install the flywheel locking pin, i realized the flywheel was off time by 3 o 4 tooths (according to the nail polish lines)

Does anyone knows what i did wrong?

thanks in advance, this is my first timing job (nearest dealer is three hours away)

 

Do you have a dummy tensioner in that timing bracket kit of yours? If you do, you may want to consider using it at the suggested tension while you're torquing up all the sprocket bolts. Then switch to the actual tensioner then do the 180-deg and 90-deg tightening. On N-14's, while the instruction says to tighten the exhaust sprocket bolt an extra 90-deg, I usually just give it the full 180-deg to ensure no slippage.

ALSO VERY IMPORTANT: Do use genuine OEM bolts only for the crank and cam sprockets. Those TTY specs has to be exact. I have had some issues with slippage after everything's put together using the aftermarket bolts (especially those chinese kits on Amazon/Ebay) They actually do not yield correctly.

 

I got my camshaft locking tool kit from ebay, it does include the dummy tensioner but it lacks the locking nut, so i did not used it.

last night i removed the exhaust sprocket TTY bolt and chain moved ( i think it felt in place)

i was inspecting what could went wrong and find the chain skipped a teeth

Im planning on starting over again (orderedthe 3 TTY fasteners)

Ive been reading and it think what i did wrong was installing the tensioner before torquing to 15 ft lbs the two camshaft sprockets

Im planing on removing the 2 camshaft sprockets and the 1 from Crankshaft hub...

the question is...where the hell i can find a torque wrench capable of torquing to 0.6nm (0.44 ft lbs) that seems to be so low torque!

 

Personally, i never used the dummy. Procedure is simple and that's how i do it:
1- Set the timing
2- make all the bolts loose enough to the point where the chain can rotate while everything is locked:
3- tighten and torque the intake
4- install, tighten and torque the tensioner
5- tighten and torque exhaust
6- tighten and torque crankshaft.

Good luck

 

Ok - here's is my update:

Given the fact that I had spark and indications of fuel (1. slight aroma when I pulled a plug; 2. car would not fire for even a second with the injection of starter fluid while my son cranked it) i decided to do to basics and run a compression test.

The results were alarming - 30-40 lbs. across the board. And only went up 10 lbs or so when i added oil to the spark plug hole and retested).

I know logic would strongly suggest a multi-cylinder valve issue but I perplexed and sitting here with my mechanical confidence shaken.

Keeping in mind the following: (1) The car was running at the time of this preventative timing chin event and (2) I installed a new Way Works timing chain kit, and re-evaluated to see if I installed it out of time and found that the flywheel pin and cam hold down tools were perfectly; oriented --- it makes no sense why this would be the case. In addition, if it was of-time and the valves bent, wouldn't I hear a metal on metal sound?

I need to get this fixed but do not want to throw time and money at a problem I do not have a clear. logical answer to.

Also, if it was off time wouldn't the scan tool show some indication of that?

Distraught in California - Advise sought

 

as far as metal to metal noise, you wont hear it. it takes a split second to bend them and that's it. they get stuck in place so the pistons wont keep hitting them every time they go up.

Did you verify that there is only one hole in the flywheel and that the pistons are 90 degrees BTDC?

 

One important detail when you line up the flywheel (locking pin) together with the cam alignment bracket:

When you get the crank shaft turned to TDC position, make sure you use 4 equal length kabob sticks and insert each into the spark plug hole. There are two instances that the flywheel locking can take place, TDC position and 180-deg from TDC. In either of these two crank positions where you can insert the flywheel locking pin, your pistons's height will either all be aligned to the "same height" or "high-low-high-low" configuration. You'll need to lock the flywheel when all pistons are at same height, that's where "0" is. If you lock the flywheel pin while the pistons are in alternating heights, then you're at 180-deg crank position. Can't believe I forget to mention this details from the get-go, but if you didn't pay attention to this, then this could be where it all went wrong.

 

Yupetc - Thanks for the clarification. Can you reality check me on the following. I did not use the kebab stick method at dissassembly but did verify that the pricing on the cams faced up and the tools went on appropriately. When I pulled the valve cover to verify I put the pin back in, put the locking tool in place and put in equal lengths of wire and they were all at the same height.

However, given the fact that I have 30 lbs or so compression across the board, and injecting oil to see if that raises compression by temporarily sealing the rings, did not substantially change those reading - I come to the conclusion that I have a valve problem that I somehow created. I still don't know why but it seems like pulling the head is my only reasonable option at this point.

Does that seem like the right conclusion?

 

If during your assembly you did check leveling of the piston position and lock your cam bracket and flywheel pin in, then you did it correctly.

This compression being 30 psi also baffles me. Normally, you'd either get compression above 100 psi if the chamber holds, if not, you'd get "0". If they all read 30, then please verify your gauge is functioning properly before you go and pull the head. It's not a big deal doing a head job, but before you spend the next 20 hours, let's eliminate all possibilities before we dive deep into the head job. It's really no big deal to do it, and while the head is out, you get to inspect pretty much everything and clean the piston while you're at it. De-carboning is a good thing to do. It's my favorite part of this entire ordeal, the cleaning. Then turn the head over, put some oil in the dome and wait a few hours see if there are any valve leak (use shitty old spark plugs if you still have them so you don't soak the electrodes with oil).

At this point, while the injectors are out, perform a thorough cleanse. I use this Youtube method and it works just fine with B-12 carb cleaning spray. I've found bad injectors using this method in the past on Audi vehicles, saved a whole bunch of guess work with minimal investment on equipment. .

 

This may sound silly, but when you performed the wet compression test, did you simply drop engine oil into the cylinder? If so, the oil may have just pooled on the top of the cylinder. Try shooting a few puffs of compressed air to get the oil on the cylinder walls.

After replacing the timing chain on my R56, I also couldn't start the car right away. A dry compression test showed varying compression values across the cylinders - the lowest reading was 25psi. I poured a teaspoon of oil into the cylinder and shot a few blasts of compressed air down the spark plug opening to disperse the oil onto the walls and miraculously, the wet compression test indicated a value of 110psi. Excited, I put the plugs back in and I'll be damned, the car started right up. It ran rough for a few minutes but quickly smoothed out.

 

I cant find a torque wrench capable of torquing so low (0.6 nm) in order to tension the pretension tool (tensioner dummy)

Any tips on how to get it done correctly without a torque wrench?

 

Yupetc - I am baffled by too. I will try ethanjlee’s method just to be sure. Btw- I tested with 2 gauges. One read about 30 and the other 50.

Ethanjlee- I’m curious about your result. If oil raises the compression shouldn’t that indicate bad rings or cylinder issues? Why do you think it started to run afterwards?

 

I didn't expect the oil to make that much of a difference. at most, I expected a slight improvement in the compression during the wet test.

Here's my theory, Isuspect that the cylinder walls became dry while I replaced the chain. While cranking the engine after replacing the chain, the gasoline washed the cylinder walls even more, exasperating the issue.

If this doesn't improve your situation, I'd perform a leak down test before diving into the long process of removing the head.