Wonderful! They should update their .pdf; Desert_Sand's link is where I saw A1/A5.

 

....Mobil1 0-40 ACEA A3/LL-01 $5.99/qt or $24.99 in 5 qt jug at WalMart....somebody always beats me to it as there are a lot of Porsche/BMW/Mini backyard mechanics around....the dealer is 55 mles away

 

Actually, if you look at page two of that link I sent, the 5W-40 IS listed, and states the ratings......that is what I was trying to point out, but nobody would 'listen'.

But, I am sure someone else will get wrapped around the axle about it being 5W-40 and not 5W-30.....*shrug*

 

How important is the BMW LL specification? Is running a 5w-40 ACEA A3/B3 that is BMW LL-98 the end of the world if it's being changed every 5-7K?

 

I asked Mini customer service or whatever they call themselves. Mini does not specify a BMW LL rating nor does the Mini 5w30 list one. However, since LL-04 is the latest and very hard to find oils that meet that stringent standard, if you've using an oil that meets all the other specs and meets LL-01 you've got a great oil. I don't know what the differences are between the different ratings though.

 

I'll bet it isn't ACEA A3/B3 rated.

 

I have a question for anyone who has an R56 with a European users manual. What specifications does MINI list for engine oil?

 

Maybe they say to use SAE SJ 5w-30.

I was in Brasil 8 years ago in an autoparts store with my Brother-in-law. I noticed that Syntec was $1.5 real and dino Castrol was $4.05 reals ---- I asked if it was a mistake and they said "No; synthetic is inferior."
Go figure.
A dollar was 1.86 real back then so the synthetic was cheaper there than dino here...

 

You know, it is pretty interesting to me that many people here are all wrapped around the axle (camshaft??) about the making sure that the oil they use meets the European ratings. The owners manual that I have in my hand for the vehicle I am getting doesn't mention a European rating ONE time.

It mentions using MINI High Performance Synthetic (which apparently meets the European specs, but is not listed in my owners manual) or approved synthetic oils.

If you are so worried about using an oil that doesn't meet the European standards (but is on the approved by MINI list), and voiding your warranty, there is something you should be more worried about.

"Have the oil changed only by a MINI Dealer or a workshop that has specially trained personnel working in accordance with the specifications of the MINI manufacturer"

So, unless you are specifically trained by MINI, you are voiding your warranty by being a DIY'er and changing your own oil.

At this point it is obvious to me that there are those of you here that argue just for the sake of arguing...even when given direct proof or manufacturers examples (if this proof or example doesn't fit into your reasonability bins). To those of you that fit this description, get a grip....and to those of you that are not trained MINI techs, stop changing your own oil....your warranty is now void....

 

Castrol uses Group III base stock in their North American retail formulations of Syntec, so many people think it's "dino" oil anyway. As for me, I don't care about base stock, I care about specs. While it is obviously not unanimous, it has been the general consensus on this forum that the Prince engine needs ACEA A3, regardless of brand. For those who use oil with other specifications -- again, regardless of brand -- you may be perfectly fine doing so, depending on change frequency, of course.My apologies. I read A1/A5 on page one, and stopped there. I may look for that product in stores once my supply of BMW-brand runs out.

 

According to http://www.mini2.com/forum/1434392-post8.html the requirement is for LL-01, LL-98, LL, ACEA A3-B3. There's no UK version of the manual available for download, unfortunately.

 

Maybe we're trying to make sure that people who wrote the US version of the manual didn't **** up. Yeah, that never happens. Read any of the threads on the cold start rattling? Mini still hasn't figured that one out, but so far it sounds like it's an oil supply problem. I'm not worried about the warranty. I'm worried about using the best possible oil in my engine so it lasts many, many, many times the warranty period. If you don't have anything to add then why not butt out?

Perhaps I'm going to offend trained Mini techs here, but what the **** do they know about engine oil requirements for what they service? All they're told is what's supplied by the BMW training department. This is the same BMW training department that says the engine can go up to 20,000 miles before changing the oil. It's sure nice to only have to care about a product through it's warranty period.

 

Thanks. That's what I suspected. They have switched to an American standard for the USA manual, even though it is not nearly as tight as the European standard. I would guess that the marketing dept. had a say in that.

 

Oh....butt out??

Well, let us see, I have shown people a commerical, off the shelf oil that they didn't know met their personal requirements for MINI oil. Isn't that adding something?

Is the US version wrong?? Do you know that for sure?? Are you a mechanical engineer that has the education and background in internal combustion engines and their tolerances to make a definitive no BS conclusion as to what the 'perfect' solution is?? Of a chemical engineer that specializes in petroleum and synthetic lubricants? I'd venture a pretty educated guess that the answer is a pretty defininitive "NO".

An oil supply problem has more to do with the 'on demand' system that that I've read about than the type of oil being used. This is signified by the phrase "oil supply".

There are plenty of US and European (car and motorcycle) RACING teams that use commercial off-the-shelf oils, team specific blends, as well as untried developmental oils that don't meet the stringent specifications that many here are trying to imply are the ONLY answer to the "what oil should I use" question. And these are people that routinely push 4-, 6- and 8-cylinder engines into areas of operation that probably better than 95% of the people on NAM will EVER see.

There are two options in which to answer this question.

1) Purchase the specificially branded MINI oil that many here are putting on high as the only thing you should ever use.

2) Purchase a readily available, off-the-shelf, High Performance synthetic oil that MINI and BMW has given written/verbal approval as a substitute, and use that.

In either situation, the owner of the vehicle should pick a brand of oil that they have access to all the time (and stay with that brand) and then probably change the oil sooner than the PCM is tellling them, to be prudent.

Did I add enough?

 

EXACTLY! Since when was this just about voiding warranty? At least not for me...I already know I'll eventually get around to doing some aftermarket stuff that will void certain parts of my warranty anyway. I was at my dealer yesterday for some minor warranty work (new battery cover) and my service advisor saw me buying a box of Mini oil for diy changes...she didn't scream out that I was voiding my warranty...

I also want to thank the person who posted the European manual oil specs...that pretty much answers my question about the LL-98 spec.

I personally enjoy these 'oil debates'...I like to learn little tidbits of knowledge here and there...even if some of it is just 'educated or experienced opinion'.....the more you know....

I don't think ANYONE (er, maybe Arnbut?) in this thread is a trained mechanical or chemical engineer (though I think it's awesome people have sent their oil out for testing) ...so get off your high horse already...lol

 

The 'high horse' is what I am trying to get some of the people around here to get off of. My point is that a LOT of the people that are so vehemently opposed to using another product have no professional education or background in which to base their stance. "MINI said to". Well MINI also gives approved alternatives. Also, I am perfectly happy to look at other options, while there are others that have blinders on to anything that does fall into their 'exact' requirements.

Heck, while I am not a big proponent of Mobil 1 in the first place, I would have thought their product was a perfect alternative. Finding out that their standard synthetic offering is not, was a serious surprise since BMW and MINI both say that you can use Mobil 1. They need to be more specific and say Mobil1 Long Life.

And having oil analyzed is no new thing for me. I've done it several times, spread out over the life of some of my vehicles. I just spread it out over a few years to see the trend.

My point over this is entire discussion is that there are other options available. There are other people here that need to get off their "high horse" and open their eyes to other possibilities. And using phrases such as "butt out" and anything of that ilk does not help your stance on the issue. Also several reponses have been "do a search" or something along those lines. If someone doesn't want to respond to the OP, then don't. Don't drag an attitude of "we are all right, you are all wrong, and nothing you can say will prove otherwise" into it. Something might have changed in the 2, 4, or 6 months since the topics was covered last. Companies change, enhance, or further test products all the time, so it may be different.

One person in this thread has admittedly been educated to something that he didn't know. Now if the rest of the population was as open minded as he, maybe discussions like these wouldn't degrade into giant pissing contests. While I am just as guilty as several others to this, I still like to point it out....but I am at least open to alternatives, while others do not appear to be, at least that is the way it appears to me.

And on that note, have a nice day!!

 

I'm the onsite facilities admin for a mass-spec training center; my personal certs are in life-safety, electrical, & electronics.
Our customers are forensics experts, chem-E's, food service, R&D, DOD, etc.

I asked about configuring one of my surplus sets of GC/mass-specs to do oil analysis and I got a partial go-ahead. It's more complicated than it sounds and I don't think that anybody on the forum will understand the results without some sort of access to industry-specific databases for reference.
If I can get the parameters dialed-in right, I'll be able to determine the differences (if any) between various categories of oil at an ingredient level.

 

That is what I am talking about!!

Will you be able to tell the difference between the base and the additives?? Or will it just give a list of the chemical spectrum of the product?

 

Question...in the post that is being referred to here, it says OR for these types.

I can't help but ask....which is more important...the Long Life value, or the shear value??

Since they use the OR in there, it would almost seem to me (in my perception, albiet probably wrong) that they are more interested in the Long Life formulation, than the shear part of the rating.

The off-the-shelf version of the Syntec has the LL approval, but not the shear, that is why I ask.

...trying to learn a bit more about the stance of BMW/MINI on this...

 

It should give an entire ingredient list and amounts --- but I have to get an idea of what to look for and set some general guidelines for the machine.
It's not likely that Blackstone Labs will share their proprietory data with me... ...I'm going to keep looking at our student list and see if we have somebody from the petrochemical field in the lab any time soon.


This is a picture of what the mass-spec spits out:



edit: since calibration of the unit is critical to analysis, I emailed Blackstone and begged them for baseline data for a blank run. My success rests upon their mercy... ...otherwise the mass-spec will only give me a pretty picture and tell what's in the soup, not how much...

 

You don't have to be an engineer to find the differences between ACEA A3/B3, and A1/A5 oils -- both of which meet API SH. A3 has a Viscosity at high temp. & high shear rate of greater than or equal to 3.5. A1 and A5 oils are less than or equal to 3.5. The A3/B3 oils have a higher viscosity at operating temps than A1/A5.

I think it is safe to assume that the engine was designed for A3/B3 oils.

The ACEA ratings are more specific than the API. You can take the position that it doesn't matter, but the more prudent position would be that it is best to stay with the tighter spec.

If all you are worried about is the warranty, then why bother to change your oil more often than when your OBC says to? Which oils are best shouldn't be much of an issue for you. You will just be using what the dealer uses for your scheduled oil changes.

The warranty is less than half of what the life of a MINI should be. To me, the warranty is not the main issue. When it comes to oil changes, I'm more concerned about the condition of the engine at 100K+.

I believe that a car company has different considerations than an owner such as myself when setting maintenance requirements. It is clear to me from attitudes of my friends with BMWs, Mercedes, and Porsches that long periods between required maintenance is a strong selling point. So, there must be marketing pressures on BMW to not have more frequent service intervals than their main competitors. It also seems to me that there would be a marketing disadvantage to require a European spec. oil in the USA. So, they switch to the closest equivalent USA standard even though it is less stringent than the European one.

For those interested in the long-term condition of their MINI's engine, I believe the prudent choice is to change the oil more frequently than recommended and to use an oil that meets ACEA A3/B3 specs.

You can use an oil that meets API SH, but not A3/B3 if you want, but then why bother to do more frequent oil changes? Do you believe BMW is correct in changing to SH for the USA, but not correct in their 15,000+ intervals? If you don't trust them on one, why would you trust them on the other?

 

I thought the "or" was odd as well. Often you see both listed. However, the A3/B3 spec. does say, "...for extended drain intervals where specified by the engine manufacturer."

 

Personally...I don't trust car dealers any farther than I can throw their entire dealership, especially most service departments.

What I am going to do, is purchase a readily available high performance synthetic (probalby the Valvoline synthetic brand in 5W-40 that meets the European rating), change my oil at 1200 miles or so, then change it again at 5000 miles, and continue at that rate for the duration of the ownership of the vehicle. That way, I'll get three freebies from the stealership, and that will be it. Oh, and probably 3 sets of wiper blades.

Everyone is going to do what they want to do, whether you and I beat this to death (more than the bleeding horse carcass can stand) or not.

As a side note...I have been reading quite a bit about the 'shear' rating on these oils. I get the point of what they are saying, but from what I am able to pull from all the data, while their specs are more stringent, I don't really see them as 'better' or more important.

One article I read stated that "oil shear forces are not applied to oil in internal combustion engines" and that "hyphoid gears (differentials) are the only automotive applicaton that test shear ratings".

I also found an article that further amplified this and stated that "higher shear resistance gives longer wear and easier rolling".

Now, I could be very wrong, but it looks to me that the shear rating that everyone is so worried about is more about the long life of the oil. They are using this rating as a measurement of the life length of the oil. Having said this, I am under the assumption (UGH!!! ) that they are using this to give the long service (12000 miles) between oil changes. That is why the LL oils are a viable 'option' (or??) to the dealer supplied synthetic.

Taking this additional information into my database, I can not see any danger what-so-ever in using an oil that has only a LL rating, or API SL/SM rating.

Take all this for what it is, information....I am not bashing anyone.

 

So, as per above, they are using this for the entended drain intervals only, not for the actual 'shear' capibilities of the oil.

I think my summation above is pretty much dead on, so I feel pretty good about my information gathering and my conclusions.

 

I am an engineer, have been an independent mechanic, raced as an amateur, have had my oil analyzed and will be using the services of a tribologist for future oil analyses. Is that good enough for you? What makes you expert enough to give your recommendations?

And that's applicable to the engines in our cars how? You do realize that those RACING engines, as you put it, often go through rebuilds after a few hours of use.
Or one could use an oil thats determined to be better than either of your choices. You really started off on the wrong foot by complaining that some of us here are arguing for the sake of arguing.