R55 "Brand New" repainted Clubman...very disappointed with MINI
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,972
Likes: 3
From: South Florida
Best of luck!
I think you have a solid case to either get the car replaced or a full refund.
I think you have a solid case to either get the car replaced or a full refund.
Well to answer some of the questions that came up with my post:
1) The car was supposed to be brand new, and was never titled. MD law states:
In the case of body-related damage involving vehicle repainting on a car that has never been titled, the dealer shall disclose the area repainted and any parts replaced (hood, fender, truck lid, quarter panel, etc.) in writing to the prospective purchaser.
In this case, the entire left quarter panel and door was repainted, and therefore is subject to disclosure under Maryland law. It does not specifiy an AMOUNT of money, it specifies car parts. [/FONT]
2) I got TWO independent people to look at this car, one being carmax, and yes I agree they could lie, which is why I went to a COLLISION center for a second assessment, and he told me the same exact thing and put it in writing. He even said he thought the hood was repainted but wouldnt put it in writing because he wasn't 100 percent. [/FONT]
3) HAD I known that the value would be affected, I would NEVER have signed on the dotted line to begin with, that is the whole point of why I am upset. Even if I didn't want the automatic, I would still want another car since I have no clue what happened to this one.
4) No one documented what happened to the car, so who knows what kind of damage occurred. I understand damage can happen, but I should have had to option to walk away from that car, and MINI did not provide that to me. [/FONT]
Bottom line is I filed complaints against MINI USA with BBB, and the attorney generals office, and am contacting a lawyer to see what recourse we have!
1) The car was supposed to be brand new, and was never titled. MD law states:
In the case of body-related damage involving vehicle repainting on a car that has never been titled, the dealer shall disclose the area repainted and any parts replaced (hood, fender, truck lid, quarter panel, etc.) in writing to the prospective purchaser.
In this case, the entire left quarter panel and door was repainted, and therefore is subject to disclosure under Maryland law. It does not specifiy an AMOUNT of money, it specifies car parts. [/FONT]
2) I got TWO independent people to look at this car, one being carmax, and yes I agree they could lie, which is why I went to a COLLISION center for a second assessment, and he told me the same exact thing and put it in writing. He even said he thought the hood was repainted but wouldnt put it in writing because he wasn't 100 percent. [/FONT]
3) HAD I known that the value would be affected, I would NEVER have signed on the dotted line to begin with, that is the whole point of why I am upset. Even if I didn't want the automatic, I would still want another car since I have no clue what happened to this one.
4) No one documented what happened to the car, so who knows what kind of damage occurred. I understand damage can happen, but I should have had to option to walk away from that car, and MINI did not provide that to me. [/FONT]
Bottom line is I filed complaints against MINI USA with BBB, and the attorney generals office, and am contacting a lawyer to see what recourse we have!
4th Gear
iTrader: (1)
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From: Round on the ends, Hi in the middle.
Unfortunately, damage due to shipment is a fact of life; unless you drive the car home right from the factory door. What the OP should be concerned with is the loss of value due to a repaint on a very low mileage car that had not been in a accident.
That is the outrage. Hypothetically, as a owner of a vehicle I am not allowed to repair even minor damage because it will diminish the overall value. But if I do have it repaired professionally, I still get dinged on the overall value? They get you coming and going.
As for the OP, I would use the fact that your car was repainted and not disclosed as leverage to get the dealer to offer a better trade in value since they know the vehicle history. Anywhere else you will get the same repainted surcharge.
That is the outrage. Hypothetically, as a owner of a vehicle I am not allowed to repair even minor damage because it will diminish the overall value. But if I do have it repaired professionally, I still get dinged on the overall value? They get you coming and going.
As for the OP, I would use the fact that your car was repainted and not disclosed as leverage to get the dealer to offer a better trade in value since they know the vehicle history. Anywhere else you will get the same repainted surcharge.
Last edited by Nimcosi; Mar 30, 2009 at 09:51 AM.
Here is the full wording of the Maryland law.
So by reading this you will find under section K(1)(a) that if it is "Minor paint touch up need not be disclosed (scratch, etc.)"
So until the OP can prove that the car panel was dented, damaged or replaced, they have no case.
And to those of you who may say "that's not what the law states" here is a link to the Maryland State web page with the written copy of the law that i took the above from.
http://www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/11/11.12.01.14.htm
And for those wondering about the §J reference in the first paragraph it refers to cars that are returned to the Manufacturer by the Dealer, for such things as warranty issues, non conformity, and lemon laws issues.
The OP's issue is also clearly not a Lemon Law issue either.
I know part of mine was repainted and i am not "PISSED" about it. It happens and it will always happen and it is not just a MINI thing. I would be willing to bet that the OP would never have known or cared if they had not tried to return it.
AND I am not trying to DOWN PLAY this but just warning the OP that it will be a hard fight.
Also of note is that the OP has stated they have had the car a month before deciding to return it. Well as soon as they drove it off the lot it lost that $5K on the price. And the OP did not mention how many miles they put on the car in that month. I know i had over 1700 on mine in the first week, and over 4K in the first month. Yes i have backed down from that amount of driving but still average over 1500 a month, and yes my warranty will be up well before the 3 years and probably in less than 1.8 years.
K. Vehicle Damage Disclosure.
(1) If, before consummating the sale of a vehicle which has never been titled, the vehicle has sustained either body damage or mechanical damage resulting in the replacement of a major part or parts, and the damage is not subject to disclosure under §J of this regulation, the dealer shall fully disclose this information in writing to the prospective purchaser. The following apply:
(a) In the case of body-related damage involving vehicle repainting, frame or suspension repairs, the dealer shall disclose the area repainted and any parts replaced (hood, fender, truck lid, quarter panel, etc.). Minor paint touch up need not be disclosed (scratch, etc.). This disclosure shall specify who is providing warranty coverage on the replacement parts.
(b) In the case of mechanically related damage involving a major component or components (engine, transmission rear end, etc.), the dealer shall disclose any parts replaced. This disclosure shall specify who is providing warranty coverage on the replacement parts.
(c) The dealer shall also disclose any damage which may affect the:
(i) Manufacturer's warranty;
(ii) Life expectancy of the vehicle; or
(iii) Safety of the vehicle.
(2) Upon request of the prospective purchaser or purchasers, the dealer shall provide a copy of the repair order illustrating the extent of repairs conducted to repair the damage.
(3) If a manufacturer or distributor transfers a vehicle which has never been titled to a dealership, the manufacturer or distributor shall disclose the information contained in §K(1) of this regulation to the dealership, if applicable.
(1) If, before consummating the sale of a vehicle which has never been titled, the vehicle has sustained either body damage or mechanical damage resulting in the replacement of a major part or parts, and the damage is not subject to disclosure under §J of this regulation, the dealer shall fully disclose this information in writing to the prospective purchaser. The following apply:
(a) In the case of body-related damage involving vehicle repainting, frame or suspension repairs, the dealer shall disclose the area repainted and any parts replaced (hood, fender, truck lid, quarter panel, etc.). Minor paint touch up need not be disclosed (scratch, etc.). This disclosure shall specify who is providing warranty coverage on the replacement parts.
(b) In the case of mechanically related damage involving a major component or components (engine, transmission rear end, etc.), the dealer shall disclose any parts replaced. This disclosure shall specify who is providing warranty coverage on the replacement parts.
(c) The dealer shall also disclose any damage which may affect the:
(i) Manufacturer's warranty;
(ii) Life expectancy of the vehicle; or
(iii) Safety of the vehicle.
(2) Upon request of the prospective purchaser or purchasers, the dealer shall provide a copy of the repair order illustrating the extent of repairs conducted to repair the damage.
(3) If a manufacturer or distributor transfers a vehicle which has never been titled to a dealership, the manufacturer or distributor shall disclose the information contained in §K(1) of this regulation to the dealership, if applicable.
So until the OP can prove that the car panel was dented, damaged or replaced, they have no case.
And to those of you who may say "that's not what the law states" here is a link to the Maryland State web page with the written copy of the law that i took the above from.
http://www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/11/11.12.01.14.htm
And for those wondering about the §J reference in the first paragraph it refers to cars that are returned to the Manufacturer by the Dealer, for such things as warranty issues, non conformity, and lemon laws issues.
The OP's issue is also clearly not a Lemon Law issue either.
AND I am not trying to DOWN PLAY this but just warning the OP that it will be a hard fight.
Also of note is that the OP has stated they have had the car a month before deciding to return it. Well as soon as they drove it off the lot it lost that $5K on the price. And the OP did not mention how many miles they put on the car in that month. I know i had over 1700 on mine in the first week, and over 4K in the first month. Yes i have backed down from that amount of driving but still average over 1500 a month, and yes my warranty will be up well before the 3 years and probably in less than 1.8 years.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,646
Likes: 1
From: Queens, NY
Minor paint touch up need not be disclosed (scratch, etc.).
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
From: Charlotte, NC
I look at this case like the declining home price thing. Sure your home might be worth less now than the mortgage balance, but you liked and agreed to the terms originally, right? Anything, house, car, used computer, whatever, is only worth what someone will pay for it. There is no set price for anything used.
I am shocked that the OP is shocked that his car is worth $5,000 less after one month of driving. How do you think the dealer will be able to re-sell the car if they give you sticker price back for it?
it is just easier to do that than try to do a touch up on something like that. Less than 1/2 hour worth of work, where if they did a touch up of the short 6" scratch it would take a couple of hours. plus multiple buffings etc to get it to look right.
MINI just did what any other body shop/dealer would do.
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,972
Likes: 3
From: South Florida
The dealer had no problem selling the car at full sticker price. But now they don't want it back because it has had "Prior damage" and it is worth $5K-$10K because of it. Which is which?
Unmitigated BS.
Unmitigated BS.
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
From: Charlotte, NC
Why would a one month old car not be devalued, at least that much? Of course the dealer is offering lowball wholesale trade-in value. He can sell the car himself outright and not lose as much. The Mini Dealer isn't lowballing him because of the paint, they are lowballing because its used. Would you buy a 1 month old MINI close to the same price as a new one? I wouldn't.
The dealer probably doesn't even know it was repainted. The OP said CarMax is the one that told him it was damaged. Don't mix up the original facts.
2nd Gear
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
i was looking to buy a pepper white from the plesanton ca dealership--one of the white cars had been hit supposedly when it was deliverd to their lot--i would hate to end up with that one--it need a repaint of the back fender
Thread Starter
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1st Gear
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 22
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Back to the Basics
I have read the full MD law and understand they dont have to disclose a "minor scratch". BUT....
1) Since MINI did not document WHY they repainted it I have no clue what happened to it. Was it a minor scratch, was it more than that? No one knows because no one documented it like they are supposed to.
If I knew before purchase that it was a minor scratch, it was repainted, they told me this, and I decided to take the car anyway, then fine. I understand that no car is perfect, and that things happen in shipping. But I had no clue. The issue of me wanting to trade it is immaterial at this point. I wouldn't have driven it off the lot had I known that half of it had been repainted. A whole side of my car, and possibly my hood has been repainted, and it wasn't disclosed. I am not a professional so I didn't know it by looking at it when I drove it off the lot.
2) I get that cars depreciate immediately, up to 20% when you drive it off the lot. But why would I take an offer for less because of something they didnt disclose to me initally?
3) I don't even care about getting a automatic...what I want is a car that hasn't lost more value than it should have because they repainted half of it!
4) All I want now are the options that would have been afforded to me had they disclosed the repainting/damage before purchase which are 1) not to buy the car and get another or 2) Get a discount on the purchase price.
All the people saying who cares...blah blah...if this were you, you wouldnt be happy either with the situation. This is not just a small area repainted...this is a significant portion of the car!!!
1) Since MINI did not document WHY they repainted it I have no clue what happened to it. Was it a minor scratch, was it more than that? No one knows because no one documented it like they are supposed to.
If I knew before purchase that it was a minor scratch, it was repainted, they told me this, and I decided to take the car anyway, then fine. I understand that no car is perfect, and that things happen in shipping. But I had no clue. The issue of me wanting to trade it is immaterial at this point. I wouldn't have driven it off the lot had I known that half of it had been repainted. A whole side of my car, and possibly my hood has been repainted, and it wasn't disclosed. I am not a professional so I didn't know it by looking at it when I drove it off the lot.
2) I get that cars depreciate immediately, up to 20% when you drive it off the lot. But why would I take an offer for less because of something they didnt disclose to me initally?
3) I don't even care about getting a automatic...what I want is a car that hasn't lost more value than it should have because they repainted half of it!
4) All I want now are the options that would have been afforded to me had they disclosed the repainting/damage before purchase which are 1) not to buy the car and get another or 2) Get a discount on the purchase price.
All the people saying who cares...blah blah...if this were you, you wouldnt be happy either with the situation. This is not just a small area repainted...this is a significant portion of the car!!!
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,972
Likes: 3
From: South Florida
Listen man....
Any car is going to devaluate the minute it crosses the dealership's parking lot. That is not the meat and potatoes of this discussion
What is being talked about here is that the dealer had NO PROBLEM selling the unsuspecting OP a car that had sustained some sort of damage and the did not bother to disclose it. Also they had no problem charging full sticker for it, right?
So now the OP finds out that she detests driving the car in DC traffic because it is a manual. That is a fair call. She says hubby wanted a manual, she compromised = in the end a bad deal
Fair enough.
Now she returns to the dealer and inquiries about trading it in for the same car, but automatic. In the appraisal process she is told her brand new 1 month old pride and joy has a resprayed side and because of the "Damage" now her car instead of depreciate $2,500 now is worth $5K less
And add insult to injury, Carmax says, no way the car is worth $10K less
Excuse me, but I think that is a huge hit for anyone to sustain on a month old new car. The bottom line is that the car was misrepresented in condition and the dealer had no problem selling it to her. But wait a minute, now they don't want it back
The consumer is now between a rock and a hard place, through no fault of her own? (She did not know about the damage and she did not cause it).
How screwed up is that?
Take 'em to court!
Any car is going to devaluate the minute it crosses the dealership's parking lot. That is not the meat and potatoes of this discussion
What is being talked about here is that the dealer had NO PROBLEM selling the unsuspecting OP a car that had sustained some sort of damage and the did not bother to disclose it. Also they had no problem charging full sticker for it, right?
So now the OP finds out that she detests driving the car in DC traffic because it is a manual. That is a fair call. She says hubby wanted a manual, she compromised = in the end a bad deal
Fair enough.
Now she returns to the dealer and inquiries about trading it in for the same car, but automatic. In the appraisal process she is told her brand new 1 month old pride and joy has a resprayed side and because of the "Damage" now her car instead of depreciate $2,500 now is worth $5K less
And add insult to injury, Carmax says, no way the car is worth $10K less Excuse me, but I think that is a huge hit for anyone to sustain on a month old new car. The bottom line is that the car was misrepresented in condition and the dealer had no problem selling it to her. But wait a minute, now they don't want it back
The consumer is now between a rock and a hard place, through no fault of her own? (She did not know about the damage and she did not cause it).How screwed up is that?
Take 'em to court!
$5,000 less at his dealer. The $10K was Car Max.
Why would a one month old car not be devalued, at least that much? Of course the dealer is offering lowball wholesale trade-in value. He can sell the car himself outright and not lose as much. The Mini Dealer isn't lowballing him because of the paint, they are lowballing because its used. Would you buy a 1 month old MINI close to the same price as a new one? I wouldn't.
The dealer probably doesn't even know it was repainted. The OP said CarMax is the one that told him it was damaged. Don't mix up the original facts.
Why would a one month old car not be devalued, at least that much? Of course the dealer is offering lowball wholesale trade-in value. He can sell the car himself outright and not lose as much. The Mini Dealer isn't lowballing him because of the paint, they are lowballing because its used. Would you buy a 1 month old MINI close to the same price as a new one? I wouldn't.
The dealer probably doesn't even know it was repainted. The OP said CarMax is the one that told him it was damaged. Don't mix up the original facts.
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,201
Likes: 8
From: Norfolk, VA
If you ask the dealer to pull up the "Vehicle History Report" on their computer, it will document where and why the panels were repainted. I did this after I had owned my MINI for about two years, and found out that my entire front bumper was repainted at the VPC because of a 1-2" scratch. I had no idea prior to looking at the report, and I'm a stickler when it comes to paint.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,390
Likes: 3
From: Daytona Beach, Florida
Known Fact
You lose value as soon as you drive a car off of the lot. I think because of having the stick shift instead of the auto transmission, It caused a little "BUYERS REMORSE"
I drove a car carrier for 9 years and more cars then you can imagine are damaged in transit on the trucks taking them to a dealers lot. They are repaired by the dealer and are still brand new cars when sold.
As far as "car Max" is: They will find fault with every car someone brings in because they want to purchase a car as cheap as possible.
She should take the Mini to another Mini dealer and explain why she wants an automatic and try to make a deal. She will still lose $$$ but that is just the way it is.
I know a lady that bought a $52,000 Corvette and did not like it after two months because it was a stick shift. The dealer she bought it from only wanted to give her $35,000 to trade it on the same model with an automatic transmission. She ended up selling it for $45,000 to a co-worker that knew the story. She ended up with a Ford Edge.
I think the dealer is about $2,000 off on what they should give her. I would think $3,000 depreciation would be fair. $5,000 is a lot of depreciation.
If she buys a car off of the lot the dealer should take care of the situation and not be to Greedy.
Ronnie948
I drove a car carrier for 9 years and more cars then you can imagine are damaged in transit on the trucks taking them to a dealers lot. They are repaired by the dealer and are still brand new cars when sold.
As far as "car Max" is: They will find fault with every car someone brings in because they want to purchase a car as cheap as possible.
She should take the Mini to another Mini dealer and explain why she wants an automatic and try to make a deal. She will still lose $$$ but that is just the way it is.
I know a lady that bought a $52,000 Corvette and did not like it after two months because it was a stick shift. The dealer she bought it from only wanted to give her $35,000 to trade it on the same model with an automatic transmission. She ended up selling it for $45,000 to a co-worker that knew the story. She ended up with a Ford Edge.
I think the dealer is about $2,000 off on what they should give her. I would think $3,000 depreciation would be fair. $5,000 is a lot of depreciation.
If she buys a car off of the lot the dealer should take care of the situation and not be to Greedy.
Ronnie948
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,201
Likes: 8
From: Norfolk, VA
Looking at the second paragraph of the original post, it doesn't appear that the dealer's offer had anything to do with the prior repairs.
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
From: Charlotte, NC
Listen man....
Any car is going to devaluate the minute it crosses the dealership's parking lot. That is not the meat and potatoes of this discussion
What is being talked about here is that the dealer had NO PROBLEM selling the unsuspecting OP a car that had sustained some sort of damage and the did not bother to disclose it. Also they had no problem charging full sticker for it, right?
So now the OP finds out that she detests driving the car in DC traffic because it is a manual. That is a fair call. She says hubby wanted a manual, she compromised = in the end a bad deal
Fair enough.
Now she returns to the dealer and inquiries about trading it in for the same car, but automatic. In the appraisal process she is told her brand new 1 month old pride and joy has a resprayed side and because of the "Damage" now her car instead of depreciate $2,500 now is worth $5K less And add insult to injury, Carmax says, no way the car is worth $10K less
Excuse me, but I think that is a huge hit for anyone to sustain on a month old new car. The bottom line is that the car was misrepresented in condition and the dealer had no problem selling it to her. But wait a minute, now they don't want it back The consumer is now between a rock and a hard place, through no fault of her own? (She did not know about the damage and she did not cause it).
How screwed up is that?
Take 'em to court!
Any car is going to devaluate the minute it crosses the dealership's parking lot. That is not the meat and potatoes of this discussion
What is being talked about here is that the dealer had NO PROBLEM selling the unsuspecting OP a car that had sustained some sort of damage and the did not bother to disclose it. Also they had no problem charging full sticker for it, right?
So now the OP finds out that she detests driving the car in DC traffic because it is a manual. That is a fair call. She says hubby wanted a manual, she compromised = in the end a bad deal
Fair enough.
Now she returns to the dealer and inquiries about trading it in for the same car, but automatic. In the appraisal process she is told her brand new 1 month old pride and joy has a resprayed side and because of the "Damage" now her car instead of depreciate $2,500 now is worth $5K less
And add insult to injury, Carmax says, no way the car is worth $10K less Excuse me, but I think that is a huge hit for anyone to sustain on a month old new car. The bottom line is that the car was misrepresented in condition and the dealer had no problem selling it to her. But wait a minute, now they don't want it back
The consumer is now between a rock and a hard place, through no fault of her own? (She did not know about the damage and she did not cause it).How screwed up is that?
Take 'em to court!
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,972
Likes: 3
From: South Florida
How hard is this to understand..... Dealer knowingly sold car with entire side repainted and did not disclose...That is the problem!!!!!!!
That car will forever be haunted by this fact. It is the same as accident repair. Difference is the owner of this car did not cause it and had no idea it happened!
A repainted bumper is not the same as repainted sheetmetal!.
If the damage(s) exceed a certain dollar amount, the dealer was obligated to disclose it! End of story!
That car will forever be haunted by this fact. It is the same as accident repair. Difference is the owner of this car did not cause it and had no idea it happened!
A repainted bumper is not the same as repainted sheetmetal!.
If the damage(s) exceed a certain dollar amount, the dealer was obligated to disclose it! End of story!
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
From: Charlotte, NC
How hard is this to understand..... Dealer knowingly sold car with entire side repainted and did not disclose...That is the problem!!!!!!!
That car will forever be haunted by this fact. It is the same as accident repair. Difference is the owner of this car did not cause it and had no idea it happened!
A repainted bumper is not the same as repainted sheetmetal!.
If the damage(s) exceed a certain dollar amount, the dealer was obligated to disclose it! End of story!
That car will forever be haunted by this fact. It is the same as accident repair. Difference is the owner of this car did not cause it and had no idea it happened!
A repainted bumper is not the same as repainted sheetmetal!.
If the damage(s) exceed a certain dollar amount, the dealer was obligated to disclose it! End of story!
As far as the OP is concerned, on delivery day his car was brand new. He probably STILL can't tell it has been repainted, he just wants more money for his trade in.
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,201
Likes: 8
From: Norfolk, VA
Either you're conversing with the OP privately and know details the rest of us don't, or you're reading a LOT into the situation. Where in the thread has there been any indication that the dealer ever knew about the repaint?
In any case, having repainted multiple panels on the car contributing to a significant decrease in resale value is something I would definitely have a problem with. This doesn't sound like a <$500 repair that did not have to be disclosed, it sounds pretty major.
Thread Starter
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1st Gear
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
RESOLUTION!
After threatening legal action, MINI has made this right. I am able to replace the car. Thanks for all the replies. My faith has been restored. And by the way, the dealer had NO CLUE that this had been repainted so it was not their fault.
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,972
Likes: 3
From: South Florida
Good to hear that this has come to a very happy ending and no need to further escalate the situation in a court of law.
The damage and the fact that it was covered up must have been reason enough for MINIUSA to decide taking the car off your hands. As of tomorrow, this repainted turkey will officially and legally be their problem and not yours!
The squeaky wheel gets the grease once again!
The damage and the fact that it was covered up must have been reason enough for MINIUSA to decide taking the car off your hands. As of tomorrow, this repainted turkey will officially and legally be their problem and not yours!
The squeaky wheel gets the grease once again!
Last edited by ClubmanS; Mar 30, 2009 at 01:29 PM.