Background:
I have to ditch my cooper in November as our family is growing to the point the Cooper S is not reasonable for me.Car:
2009 Jetta TDI
Competition (for my dollar):
2009 Clubman S
2009 4 Door GTI
2009 A4 Sedan/Avant
2009 A3
2005 330i ZHP

Likes: smooth power, great gas mileage, good fit and finish
Dislikes: soft suspension, VW trannies, FWD, lack of xenon headlights

I'm not gonna touch the exterior as the VW family, like BMW's lineup (including Minis) are pretty bland looking cars.
On the inside everything feels a notch or two better than my Cooper's cheap interior components. Still not high quality but it's all very solid, functional and Germanic.

Turn the key and the little 2.0TDI comes to life. Wow, that's pretty quiet. Seriously, the engine at idle is quieter than my Cooper S.
Good seats too. I like these seats more than the GTI's cloth covered seats. They feel more substantial than my Cooper's seats too. Love the power motion but why manual fore/aft? Weird. Anyway, they're pretty comfy and got a big thumbs up from my wife. I still prefer my 2003 BMW's seats to any car I've been in over the past 10 years.

Back to the car. Sadly I had to drive the automatic. Like our A3 it's a DSG and like our A3 it has great points and low points. It's silky smooth to shift gears; it seems to resist moving for a few seconds when you depress the throttle. With 235 ft-lbs in a relatively heavy car, the take off is never forceful but it does occur quickly. The tranny slides into gear and the car glides away.

Acceleration was shockingly good once underway. It doesn't seem as free-revving or as forceful as our 2.0T but press the gas and this sucker just goes without fuss. I think I would miss the frantic way the Cooper's turbo applies overboost as I found the engine's linear smoothness less than inviting (like my 2006 330i's anemic inline 6).

At highway speeds the TDI seemed reluctant to really take off with WOT but I blame this more on the DSG. With so much torque I expected the TDI to feel more like the shove-you-back diesels I drove in years past. Still, I wish I'd had a proper transmission to drive but such is life.
Road noise was low and the car tracked nicely, with little jitter/bounce over San Diego's pockmarked roads (it's like we live in Beirut). In terms of in-cabin noise at 70-80, the car was far quieter than our A3 (which still wears nasty all-seasons) or my Cooper's summer performance tires. Unlike the A3 I didn't hear a steady rumble from the rear.

My wife loved the smooth ride; I found it okay. She detests the cooper S and felt the Clubman S was tolerable. While the TDI felt very VW (somewhat firm, tracks nicely, conveys some road feel), I can tell if I go TDI i'm gonna need to play with the suspension. With the understeer and soft suspension the car soaks up bumps and never lets you forget the target market is anyone who doesn't own a sports sedan or sports hatch.

Space is fine and we like the rear vents. Trunk space is huge compared to my Cooper and the Clubman S. The backseat felt comfy and roomy. The sportwagon felt more comfortable inside than my sister's flabby 328ti. Stats be damned, the wagen has more comfortable rear seat space than a e9x BMW wagon for certain.

Regardless we drove the TDI sedan as no wagon TDIs were on the lot. Can't see I'd go for the wagon after sitting in one and seeing its girth in person. Sure the space is good but the vehicle feels too large for my tastes.

Overall i was impressed with the engine and felt it's a pretty solid deal for 23k. I'll never warm to the exterior. The interior feels better than my Cooper but still not an interior I think is laid out nicely. The idea of getting 35 mpg combined appeals to me some (though 29-30 with a Clubman S makes the fuel savings pretty slim). Sadly, the soft suspension, lack of frantic oomph and xenons (aftermarket mods on lights is not something I will do) may keep me from pulling the trigger.

While the TDI only gained in my estimation tonight, this still appears to be a race mostly between the Clubman S and GTI 4 door, with a used 2005 330i ZHP reserved as the most emotionally attractive car to drive daily (no warranty, 23 mpg combined, difficult rear seat access handicap it).
If they had a TDI engine in the GTI 4 door this would be an easier choice for me - better interior layout, better suspension and a few features I want (xenons).

My wife insists I should go with the Clubman S as I like my 07 Cooper S quite a bit. I could do without the Clubman's cheesey interior and FWD but overall it's fun. Clubby as I outfitted it will be 29k. TDI 23k. GTI 23k. The cash won't make the difference though.

 

I think you're comparing apples to oranges w/the TDI - in our market it's not geared towards a sporty drive whereas the Clubman S is.

I moved from a Passat Wagon (B5.5 w/chip and suspension mods) down to the Cooper Clubman S and the Clubman is a riot in comparison.

I'm looking forward to seeing the new 09 A4's in the flesh. An Avant may be a good replacement for my wife's M-B R350...

 

From my experience, the VW product is full of problems. I owned a new Touareg and it was always at the dealer! I also have (daughter has now) a Golf TDI and has had major issues especially with the high sulfur content of fuel..
I will never ever own a VW product again!
BUYER be WARE!

 

Good advice. We've had 3 VW products and only the Audi A3 has been reliable. That said, only my Cooper has been rock solid while my two 3 series cars (e46 and e90) had nothing but problems from day one.

In the end reliability will not be a deciding factor in my purchase as I've resigned myself to the idea that having a fun car is far more important to me than any other purchase criteria. Considering only the Europeans currently make fun, decently outfitted small cars I'm pretty much trapped in the land of poor dealer service/poor reliability.

 

i realize this. Sadly, very few cars right now offer:

small
powerful
4 (or 3) doors
good handling
decently outfitted cabins

BMW could make this so much easier if they sold a 4 door 1 series! Owned an e90 and it's far too big for me to enjoy. The A4 apparently grew too so it may have gone beyond my concocted criteria for size.

 

My friend bought a Jetta GLI Fahrenheit edition last year and he had Zero problems. I really like the car as well. Great performance and the DSG tranny is awesome.
But believe it or not even though its a 4 door its a bit tighter interior wise for my 6'7" frame than my Clubman.

I would listen to the wife and check out the Clubman ... enough room for a growing family (which is where we are headed too)

 

This is a tough call. We moved from a '00 Passat Wagon to the Clubman S. The Passat gave us lots of problems, but the VW quality seems to have improved since then.

I'd have to agree that the comparison to the TDI and GTI isn't exactly aligned, but the tradeoffs are pretty clear.

Have you considered resale value and the quality of the dealers available for maintenance?

 

Resale, the clubby wins. Dealers, VW wins by a landslide. San Diego doesn't even have a Mini dealership so that's a no-brainer. 8th largest city in the USA and we lack a Mini dealer...go figure.

 

LOL - well I haven't had a chance to sample the MINI service experience yet except for 1 "we owe" that took a while to correct but if memory serves me correct - VW service STINKS!!

My shopping list while looking at the Clubman was pretty diverse but it included the following:

GTI 4 dr w/ DSG
Scion XB
Mazda 5
Audi A3
09 Honda Fit

It was a compromise situation which involved a wife with a bad taste in mouth for VW/non-stick shift driver and the need to purchase an economical car that we could both drive. Luckily it only took 1 drive of the Clubman (a justacooper no less) for Lydia to buy into the Clubman. I specced the S w/the options that I wanted and we now fight for the keys daily :D

The next big battle will commence when we turn in the (ridiculously good) lease on her 06 M-B R350 which ends in March - unfortunately she has bought into the whole Benz cache and it's going to be hard to sway her away from the brand... $$ will have to win the day ultimately.

 

i drove a TDI and was impressed . very quiet and i like the room in the sportwagon. next to the mini the TDI hold their value very well also. I had a vw and i had no problems other than a window regulator in 4 yrs.

 

Depends on your priorities. TDI Jetta with 50mpg but diesel fuel price probably about same fuel cost as clubbie. Clubbie more fun to drive if you like sporty cars. Jetta decent car that holds value as well, especially with diesel. I like the quirky interior of mini. Jetta nice conservative interior.
Not a bad choice. Good luck with it.
John

 

If you're talking about an MCCS then there's no contest, TDI saves you more money despite higher diesel costs (at least at today's prices). MCC is more competitive with TDI, but in both Clubmans you're likely not to drive as spirited as you'd like if you want to keep up with the TDI's fuel efficiency.

 

Doesn't the FWD aspect cancel out? All of the other cars you're considering are also FWD except for the 330i.

 

Actually at 29 mpg for the Clubman S (4.60 a gallon) and 37 mpg (5.10 a gallon) for the TDI the Jetta ends up a couple hundred per year cheaper to operate.

I have a Cooper S and get about 30 mpg with it, so 29-30 seem realistic in the Clubman. I assume I will drive the TDI and the Clubman just as hard as I drive cars now.

RKW - I bring up the FWD as the Clubby/GTI are a lot of fun save for the fact the FWD seems to interfere with fun in corners. Really it just bugs me that I can't use throttle and tiny inputs to steer the car through a fun series of Esses I encounter every day. On the TDI I'm already resigning myself to surrendering some fun for added MPGs while not sacrificing too much on power and interior refinement.

 

I read this thread yesterday and didn't respond. But tonight, I can't help myself...

I come to the MINI world from a lot of years driving VW diesels. If you're considering one, you need to look at it as two separate decisions. VWs, and diesels. I bought my first VW in 1978, my first diesel in 1981. I've often referred to VW ownership as a "self inflicted wound." By that I mean that you might buy your first VW blind, but the second one you go into knowing that VWs always have their issues. (As I gather MINIs do as well). The Toureg? Notoriously bad, especially early ones.

I just sold a 2005 Passat TDI. I can honestly say that the Passat was as refined an automobile as I can imagine in that price range. That platform (commonly referred to as the B5 [or B5.5 to be precise]) came out in 1996 or 97, and was absolutely rock solid structurally and functionally. I put 58,000 miles on it before I sold it and it never saw the dealer for anything mechanical. The previous generation Jetta (A4 body style) was fairly similarly reliable.

The current cars are the B6 and A5. As I understand it, the Passat is still assembled in Germany, while the Jetta is assembled in Brazil or Argentina or Mexico. I can't remember which, but the dealer can tell you. It's sort of generally believed that there is an incremental difference in quality between the two platforms. This could be by design (the Jetta being the lower price point car) or by point of origin. I leave that to you to decide. The A5 came out mid-year 2005 as an early release 2006, so the '09 is the fourth production year. I would expect that the teething problems have been worked out.

As to diesels: As you discovered, these cars can scoot. The power delivery is entertaining, as it's all grunt. You rarely have any need to rev past about 3100 RPM, because all you produce with more revs is noise. The previous generation engines were pretty robust. They were finicky about what oil you should use (as is VW), but that's about it. As I understand it, the engines themselves have not changed, just the diesel fueling and emissions systems. This will be the first model year for the new "clean" diesel technology. Whether or not you want to beta test that is up to you. Of the various VW-endemic problems, diesel technology is not one of their weak points.

If you're looking at diesels from a fuel cost savings standpoint, there were good articles in Car and Driver and Motor Trend in the last couple of months that paint a rather grim picture of whether it's worth the (substantial) extra cost for the diesel powerplant. I sold a car I really liked because I could no longer accept the price differential. At today's (7/28/08) prices, anything over 29 MPG for regular gas and 31 MPG for premium ( eg, MINIs), and you're ahead (of the 35.x MPG I was getting on the Passat). I can send you a small spreadsheet and you can plug in the MPGs of a new Jetta, with any of the three transmissions.

That's more than my two cents' worth. There is a wealth of knowledge and strongly held opinions over on TDIClub.com. VWVortex is a good source of information on VWs.

HTH; feel free to PM me if I can tell you anything else.

 

I'm a VW fan. I'm trading in my 99 Passat Wagon with 180k miles on it. I haven't had any major problems with it until recently. It got to the point were I needed some major repairs, and I lost a cyclinder 2 months ago. So after 10 years of ownership and just minor problems until 2 months ago I have been very happy with my Passat. I was seriously thinking of getting the new Passat CC, that is one good looking ride But after test driving a Clubman I was sold on the Mini and wasn't willing to wait a year for the CC. The new Passat gets very good ratings from the different car mags and drives very well.
The problem I've found with VW in the US is their service, it is terrible. My wife has a Saturn VUE, and Saturns service is some of the best in the industry. Over the 15 years of owning Saturns I have been amazed at their service.

 

The dealer issue doesn't apply when buying a TDI. If you want your TDI to live a long life, you are best off staying as far from your local VW as possible. Not unless they have a proven and documented record of being a good source for TDI service. I have yet to hear of one of these... anywhere in the entire country...

I bought my TDI fully expecting to DIY all maintenance and repair work and I have invested a large amount money in the tools required... and this plays no small amount in the cost-per-mile calculation in owning a TDI. A TDI is a "needy" car compared to a MINI (we have one TDI and two MINI's). All TDI's require specific oil that can be difficult to find. Not using this oil can lead your TDI to a expensive death. And no, Mobil 1 is not good enough.

That said, I like the Clubman. However, we already have two MINI's and the Clubman is unfortunately too small when compared to my TDI wagon to be an adequate replacement.

 

IanF is absolutely spot-on with respect to the average VW dealer and TDI service. They may get better if the new TDIs become a larger percentage of their sales, but most are genuinely awful.

 

the new clean diesel TDI has been out for one year already. Vw markets their new models for one prior to coming to north america with a few exceptions the beetle being one.

 

True, and they commonly bring the first year bugs to the US in the second year, it seems.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm coming from a 2007 Cooper S so I'm intimately familiar with Minis (the pluses and minuses). Also we've owned several Audi/VW products so we know the very real pain of VWAG (in my estimation it's not as bad as BMW).

I have plugged the numbers pretty hardcore:

29 mpg from the Clubman S (I get 30 with my Cooper S 6MT so I can't expect more) at $4.60 a gallon v. 37 mpg (TDI 6 MT - I find automatics boring to drive) at $5.10 = really no difference in fuel costs (about $250-300 savings with the diesel).

Really it's the little things I'm weighing right now. The TDI or GTI make more sense from a cost, comfort, day-to-day, passenger viewpoint. The Cooper wins on fun-to-drive, gadgets and residual. Fun-to-drive has governed my last few purchases - sadly that wears off. Realistically, no matter the car, in 3 years it will be replaced (unless - god forbid - we have a second kid) with something like a 135i.

Can I put up with driving something sorta nice, sorta fun for 3 years? I couldn't last beyond a year in my boring-as-snot euro delivery e90 before I dumped it.

 

I guess a lot of it depends on your 2nd "non-fun" car...

I downsized from an 03 Passat wagon to the MINI but my wife has a honking great R350 for the heavy duty hauling. We have 2 kids - 3 & 6 - and for daily shopping/ferrying duties the Clubman is now the default vehicle. We even manage Costco runs in it (within reason).

There's no question that the TDI/GTI would be able to take on the same duties but you probably wouldn't have as much fun doing it.

I think you need to set aside an afternoon and just test drive all of your shortlist back to back. All of them have their pluses and minuses but I'd be willing to bet you'll pick a favorite pretty quickly.

Good luck w/your choice.

 

I bought a Red 2007 VW beetle convertible for the wife...the engine is fine, but I have taken it in for electrical issues practically twice a month. It has only 15K miles on it.

My wife bought a 2007 Pepper White MCS with Auto...reason for automatic...wife can't drive stick and the NYC traffic. That car has been no issues...engine or rattles or cold start...it's a great car.

We are going to pick up a Clubman non-S in Boston...I'll be driving that.

I'm probably going to trade the 2007 Beetle and the 2007 MCS hardtop for what I really want...2009 MINI Cabrio MCSa with all the trimmings.

We won the Clubman.

 

You might just want to hide your location, because I hear a posse is coming to whup your a**.

 

We won it at Minis On Top 08...the two year lease on it.