seems to be a fair amount of skepticism about the brake light mod causing a BC1 to fail... but it can often cause one taillamp to fail and in some cases both. when it happens, try to find a BC1 and plug it in and see if it fixes it. from what i've seen, that is often the cause. this problem is not often seen in cars w/o the mod though. my recommendation is to pull the mod. somebody above was on the right track about how to get it covered, but any good tech should spot the sections of wiring that were opened up to install the mod in the course of diagnosing the problem. probably better just to avoid the potential of add'l expense. once body wiring is hacked up there can be gremlins for the long term. just had a car that a place tried to put a remote start into; you wouldn't believe some of the wires they cut! they said that the headlights were SUPPOSED TO FLASH for the first 30 seconds of driving! CEL on and everything... another one had a stereo hooked into the airbag wiring...and there is the one that somebody opened the kombi, broke out the led for the CEL, cut the main eng ground wire etc...the list goes on. all these cars exhibit multiple issues from these things. point being: choose carefully who does your wiring and what you put in your car.

 

Yes! Kristina, it sounds to me as if you were unfamiliar with this feature, inadvertently bumped the signal column up or down as you got out of the car, drained the battery, took the car in, and now they're giving you a bunch of BS to milk some money from you. I'd take the car back (jump it if need be) and check this out before forking over any money! All you probably needed to do (had you realized it) was to return the signal column to its standard position.

If this turns out to be the case, this will be one heck of a reason not to trust MINI of San Francisco's service dept!

 

Chris may have the $1,300 answer... I definitely wouldn't trust MINI SF's service guys. They tried to nail a fellow NAMmer for several hundred dollars to 'troubleshoot' his intermittent ipod adapter. We played with it (i.e. double checked all connections) for about 30 minutes (max), voila, problem solved.

If the issues you stated are the only symptoms, it's definitely worth a shot - get it jumped, and then have the battery fully charged (I've got a charger if you want to come to Santa Cruz. ) Those lights are designed to be left on only for a few hours - if you left it for a few days, they could easily drain the battery.

Note that there's a guy in Salinas parting out an '02 - don't know if they are compatible between those years though. Anyone?

 

Anyone put LED bulbs in the upper light of the taillight assembly? They aren't as bright but they only draw about 1/10th, or even less, of the current of the regular bulb.

 

Question for the MINI guru's.....What does the BC1 control? Is the car drivable?

If the car is driving get your car back!

Best case - just a feature that was overlooked in the owners manual drained the battery

Worst case - you get a BC1 from the salvage yard and plug it in. There are many very helpful MINI mechanics on here. (some are even real MINI techs)

 

I was also thinking of replacing the top bulb with an LED but they tend to have a larger diameter and might require some retofitting to get the LED assembly to fit in.....and, would that prevent the dealer from still blaming the 'mod' anyway if they felt like it?....probably not

 

I don't think that it's as simple as the turn signal/parking light feature. The right tail light was on, then after a few hours, the front right round light (driving light?) came on.

Here's a question. As I said before, I had the hazards on for 10-15 minutes prior to this whole thing happening. Does the brake light mod affect how the hazard lights flash. Could this have overloaded the BC1?

I'm really at a loss about this. Mini of SF has already ordered the BC1 to install. To add insult to injury, they are also charging me for a new battery. I simply lack the technical knowledge to argue my case properly, if I even have a case.

 

If not, tell them to F-off! They can't just order parts for your car and bolt them on without your permission.

If you did sign an estimate for the repair, and they haven't exceeded it, then you're on the hook, because you gave them permission to do the fix.

So, if they are acting on their own, have them stop. Go to the web, and have the salvage parts sites look for a used BC1 from your year. It changed between 03 and 04, but it hasn't changed since.

Also, if you want new parts, Classic Auto Campus gives a NAM discount, and in this case, that would be a goodly amount of $.

Mini Battery? I wonder what they charge here. I'm sure it's too much. But you can get lots of batteries that will do the work, and save $ as well. Also, are they warrantying the battery? OR are they claiming that it's failure was caused by your mod as well . Really, if the battery is dead, that was caused by the failure of the BC1.

You can see if they'll price match Classic Auto Campus and save 20% on the parts, I think. Or you can look for used parts and save even more.

Matt

ps, the hazards will have a higher load on the line that does the rear brake lights. But so far, no one has quoted the output specs of the BC1 as far as current drive. So who knows if it would cause a fault.

 

Echoing what everyone already said, please tell them to stop, they are strong arming you into this repair without even proving anything.

Sadly all BMW/MINI dealers around here do their best to avoid doing warranty work and look for any reason to the extreme to put it on the owner if they can (one of the reasons I may never buy a new one again after years of this) and SF BMW/MINI is definitely one of these along with Sonnen (who tried stupendously ridiculous things to not cover warranty fixes and both have damaged cars at the same time).

So far my couple of trips to East Bay MINI has been okay and I'm crossing my fingers - if you can I'd take the car there vs SF. If the car cannot move at this point and you don't want to tow it then still tell them to stop and as Dr Obnxs said get pricing on the parts from elsewhere and tell them that you either want them to match that price or you will provide them yourself. If its not warranty work then you should be able to provide OEM parts from any source and receive your core back which you can then have checked to see if it really was broken as they say. I would not let them charge full price for a new battery either, if it were simply drained they should still be able to work with it and you can replace it later with either OEM at a better price or a better aftermarket battery. (Fwiw, I had a similar thing happen with a BMW at Weatherford, which has good service, the battery kept dying and we simply told them not to replace the battery then showed up there with a better one.)

Beyond that though I would at least point out the MM act and ask how they can prove the mod caused that result. It is tough I know as they pretty much have your car hostage now, but pushing back and requesting a visit by the field service representative can also help and at least put a kink in their bullying tactics.

 

I did the brake light mod a while back, and although I had no problems,
I decided to change my 1156 fog bulbs to the 1156-24R narrow led bulbs
from http://www.superbrightleds.com/tail-brake-turn.html after reading this thread:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=50441
They're not nearly as bright as the regular bulbs, but they only draw about 1 watt
versus 21W for the stock 1156's. Also, when a conventional bulb first turns
on, it draws a lot more current the first fraction of a second until the
filament warms up, which happens every time you step on the brakes.
I wouldn't put led bulbs in the main brake light, and they're probably not
bright enough to be good fog light bulbs either, but they do a good job of
augmenting the main brake lights giving me a little more visibility to other
cars when braking. The 24 bulb leds fit in the stock tail light assembly
just fine, but the 30 bulb ones are said to be to big in diameter to fit.
Interstingly, the 19 bulb (all 19 face rearward) ones have a smidge more
axial brightness than the 24 bulb ones (which have 18 rearward pointing leds
and 6 sideways pointing ones).

 

At a minimum, for cost mitigation, unless your battery was vaporized it can easily be recharged vs. replaced. I drained my battery somehow (either left the hatch ajar or the key in the ignition) and after a 24 charge at 2 amps, it's been good to go. Then again, the SAs often don't have cost savings as a high priority...

 

I haven't changed to the LED's yet, but I did look at them at AutoZone today. $16.99 for two and they appeared to be very close to the same size as the stock bulb.

 

a visit from a field service rep? bullying? strong-arming? don't replace the battery yet? so you have an electrical issue that you want fixed, but don't want to replace the battery yet? that will really help speed along the process of completing repairs... 1 step fwd, 2 steps back. so when the dealer tells you what it takes to fix the car and that it is not warranty, one is being bullied? so if you take the car and fix it elsewhere, how much money are you paying for checkout time to the tech that spent several hours finding the cause? unless since he is "strong-arming" somebody you feel he deserves nothing...also, do a lot of people really want a field rep seeing what has been done to their car? you may end up getting your warranty voided on electrical altogether if they feel that the mods have done permanent damage. food for thought...

 

It's OK for consumers to insist that they be treated within the realm of the law. Asking for that is not whining, it's our rights as consumers. The dealer has to PROVE that the mod caused the fault. They can't just say "we think so". If you don't like that lobby your congressman to get the law changed.

And there is a difference between coincedence and cause. Since I stopped eating vegtables, there haven't been any above ground atomic or hydrogen bomb tests. That's a coincidence. Not a cause.

A dealer can't just void a warranty because they feel like it. They have to show cause, and as of now, the dealer has shown no proof. Geeze, I don't get it when someone wants the protection of existing law the get all the rolly eye posts! That's what the law is for, and the more that just roll over, the less it protects us all.

And who says the tech found the cause? The tech is claiming that they found the cause, but offer no proof. That's not right. It's more like they found something they can blame it on. Without proof, that's all they have done.

Matt

 

Lol, why not take a minute to write something cohesive and put things in context

First of all, what does speed of repair have to do with the issue of them having to prove the mod caused the failure according to law? Not to mention speed of repair has nothing to do with ensuring they determined the actual cause correctly, are fixing as really needed and not doing something unnecessary, and not ripping you off on parts and time mark up just because they feel they can. Obviously if speed is the main issue to the owner then clearly they can make that determination themselves, but that is not what they posted about or what I was responding about. Not letting the dealer put in an overpriced underperforming BMW battery in my BMW did not hold up repairs by the way.

Secondly as stated I have dealt with this dealer before and know that they and others often look for reasons not to do work under warranty without spending time to find the real cause - you do not know how many hours they really spent on it do you? Most of the time many dealers plug the car in to the computer and may or may not do much of a visual inspection much less really dig in. As a matter of fact myself and others often have to do the diagnostic work and find the cause, TSB, etc to even get something correctly identified and repaired under warranty; we've been told "that is normal" for something clearly wrong or some mod blamed without the slightest looksee as to the actual cause/issue when there have been some significant problems and we had to do their job and find them the service bulletin or clear reason how the mod was unrelated. So do not make assumptions as to how they determined the issue or the reason it failed.

Anyway, my first recommendation was to take it to another dealer, when it comes to so much money I'd want a second opinion in the least, and the other dealer might actually make a better determination. I suggested involving the field rep only in that it does not seem like they are even trying to prove that the mod was the cause as the MM act requires and just going ahead with the repair - the field rep may be more aware of the circumstances and do something to help determine how it happened and at least consider alternative possabilities for the cause, and also deal with how it was handled and the cost - just a suggestion as is everything else here. As for the electrical warranty, this problem and cause will be in the customer record anyway so that will have nothing to do with the field rep - if they are fixing the issue though there should be no warranty problem in the future because they did the repair (I'd take it to another dealer after this anyway unless there are issues as a result of this repair that they would have to fix directly).

And from what I read I stand by my adjectives - from what was written it sounds like they are not providing the specifics as to how her mod may have been the cause (or the alternative, letting her show how it may not have been) then have gone ahead and ordered costly parts that have a big mark up on without a written estimate or time/opportunity for the owner to take the car elsewhere or get better parts prices.

 

A little background on the inner workings of our beloved (and behated) "Body Control Module" (BCM).

The BCM is an electronic control unit tasked with various functions relating to the operation of 'body mounted' electrical items and systems (as opposed to the engine, which has it's own dedicated Engine Control Unit and unique requirements). In the case of the MINI, this busy little module controls every interior light except for the glove box and map lights, every exterior light save for the reverse light, all of the exterior locking (doors, boot, gas cap), the windows, wipers, washers and the alarm functions/keyless entry. In almost every situation where you flip a switch or push a button inside the car, you are sending a signal to the BCM and it's the BCM that activates that particular device. Unlike the "old days" where a switch actually controlled the current flow to, say, the headlights, in this system, the BCM 'reads' the status of a switch then directs the current to the device that switch controls.

While this might seem like overkill or unnecessary, it actually simplifies operations considerably. Since so many accessories are 'interactive' with one another, having one module controlling everything cuts down on the need to cross-connect a bunch of otherwise independent systems. For example, when you push and hold the "Unlock" button on the key, the BCM will flash the hazard lights twice (in the case of later models), unlock the doors, the gas cap, roll down the windows and open the skylight. If the car had an independent subsystem for each of these accessories like a 20-year old car, the additional wiring, relays and other controls would result in an electrical nightmare. Corralling all the body functions into one big subsystem makes things much easier.

The problem with putting all the functions into one module also means if that one module goes on the fritz, you can lose several if not all the functions it controls. The BCM is designed in such a way to minimize this from happening, though it is still possible but seemingly rare in the real world, since I have only heard of a couple cases of it happening.

The BCM internally is a relatively simple affair, with a large microprocessor chip as it's brain, another large chip handling the inputs to the processor, and a couple dozen 'driver' chips. These 'drivers' take the signals from the microprocessor that activate the various lights and motors and do the heavy work of actually controlling the power to those items. Example: You turn on the headlight switch. Instead of controlling the headlights directly, the headlight switch merely conveys your intention to turn the headlights on to the microprocessor. The microprocessor then makes a couple decisions (Is the key on? Are the running lights on?) before sending a low power 'control' signal the the driver chip that controls the headlight. The driver takes this control signal and amplifies it, then completes a circuit with a high-power transistor (as opposed to a relay or other mechanical switch. No moving parts to arc or wear out!). The light then comes on. Since the real world throws a lot of nasty realities into the mix, some precautions are built in. If the headlight bulb were shorted out, this could damage the transistor. In addition to a simple fuse, each of the driver chips has a protection circuit built into it. Since a fuse takes a fraction of a second to blow, the protection circuit will see an excessive amount of current being drawn by the transistor and shut off the signal controlling it. This saves the driver chip from being damaged by a bad bulb, shorted wire, etc. If the driver chip were to go bad, the fuse is there as a last resort to protect the circuitry from damage and even a possible fire.

The BCM similarly controls the brake lights. The driver for the brake lights contains two separate, independent outputs per chip, each output going to a separate brake light. Each output is capable of providing 6 amps to each bulb. Nominally, these bulbs draw a bit over two amps each. Since the brake lights are typical incandescent lamps, there is a period of time when the voltage is first applied to the bulb where the bulb draws 2-3 times (if not more) current. This surge happens as the cold filament intitially heats up to the point of glowing. The driver chip compensates for this by being able to pass 30 amps of current for a couple milliseconds without damage. Anything more than this current value will 'trip' the protection circuit, shutting off the current flow (the protection circuitry automatically resets and tries again, on and off).

The "brake light mod" doubles the load applied to the driver. Granted, this does make the chip work harder, but it's still within the operational limits of the chip. Brake light mods done with the diode as opposed to a jumper wire have the slight advantage of allowing the brake lights to begin lighting first before the fog lights start due to the 0.7 volt voltage drop that a typical diode has. This 'softens' the load seen by the drivers a bit.

The rear fog circuit contains the same drivers as does the brake light circuit. Due to the design of the drivers, voltage being fed back into the outputs does not do any damage (the drivers are an 'open collector' circuit). Since wiring the fog lights to work as brake lights will send voltage back to the BCM fog light drivers anytime the brakes are applied, no damage or anything else will come of either driver chips with the mods.

So, what's happening here? With all the short circuit and overload protection here, there have been people who had issues with their brake lights not functioning properly. Not all of these people had a 'brake light mod' in their car either. Also, some might have had other problems with the BCM (no turn signal, etc) but the dealer will automatically attribute any failure of the BCM to any existing brake light mods. Hundreds of people have been running around with brake light mods for a few years now without problems. In reality, the dealer still has to prove that a brake light mod caused damage to the BCM the same way they would have to attribute an engine failure to, say, having an aftermarket exhaust installed.

A few hints to a longer-lived BCM:

* Do NOT install grossly over-wattage lamps in the headlights, taillights, etc. anywhere in the car.

* Do not wire any auxiliary driving or fog lights directly to a lamp output on the BCM. Use a control relay and a separate circuit.

* If you have ANY sign of water entering the interior of the car and collecting around the right-side footwell, have it repaired immediately. Cars with sunroofs have occasionally had internal leaks due to poorly fitted or detached sunroof drain tubes. Cars with windshields that have been replaced can also have this problem. The water will drain along the A-pillar and onto the BCM behind the kick panel. Any dampness that remains in the area will damage the BCM and/or the wiring.

* Use LED bulbs in the foglights. This solution, while it does minimize the extra load on the BCM, in many cases reults in dim, poorly focused fog lights. Quality of the LED 'bulbs' varies greatly, with some having a brilliant, well-dispersed light that rivals the stock bulbs to a meager dot in the middle of the lens. LED lights have the advantage of instant-on operation as opposed to the several millisecond delay of incandescents. It's been shown that the reaction time of the LED lights results in nearly a car length of additional warning to motorists behind.

* Replace any 'jumper' mod with a diode. It helps to spread out the initial loading. Likewise, make sure there is no exposed wiring resulting from the mod, be it a jumper or diode. Repeated operation into a short can eventually damage the driver ICs.

 

This sounds like problems with the BCM (BC1) totally unrelated to a brake light mod. Also, the brake light mod does not affect the flashers, since the turn signals are completely separate circuits. Also, unlike older cars, there is no old-school 'flashers' in the car. The BC1 does the actual switching on-off-on-off of the lights, and a 'sounder' is mounted in the dash to create the tick-tock sound of a flasher that is activated with the lights for the fimiliar sound and to remind the driver the lights are flashing.

To be honest, this failure mode sounds quite a bit like water damage to the BCM. In absence of that, the constant surge created by flashing lights can cause problems, but as I covered above, this sort of issue is covered by the overload protection circuitry.

As for the battery replacement, unless your battery was constantly coming up weak or dead, you are simply being charged for unnecessary parts and labor.

Have another dealer check the car out. By the looks of this, to me it seems they are taking advantage of you.

 

Nice info on the BCM, BCNU, BBC what ever they all are, thanks Greatbear

Upon review I'm wondering if the techs/service guys working on the even know this stuff to understand the cause and effect...

 

Wonderful posts greatbear! Thanks, that was some good info

In otherwords, If I understand your post. If the Mod caused damage it would have only damaged the brake/tail light driver. The fact there are other lights acting strange is reason for suspecion?

Kristina - I would ask them to provide some very technical information to you about the max load the BC1 was designed to handle, you don't have to understand it.....(they wont produce it anyway) When they can't or won't this will give you SOME leverage to threaten a MM lawsuit....thats the best you can do probably. The bottom line is that they can make you pay (if you want your car back) and then you will spend more money fighting than the repair costs and concidering there IS a possibility (since we are not the electrical engineers who designed the BCM) that your mod did the damage then it's tough to say that you just have to go by principle and make them do right.

 

Greatbear, that's a Greatpost!!! (#41)

 

Considering this thread https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...477#post823477
thats probably a non-starter

 

What if (good quality) LED bulbs are used to replace the brake lights instead? That way the fog lights have the more brilliant incandescents for safety when actually needed for foggy conditions.

 

That would work, except I have yet to find an LED retrofit bulb that actually illuminated as well as stock. Plus, the brake light is also the taillight, so trying to find a dual filament LED equivalent becomes even tougher. The day that I can find LED bulbs that illuminate as well as stock (with regards to uniformity, brightness, omnidirectionality) is the day I will put them in my car. Things are improving though, and there are better ones coming out all the time.

 

I'm going to use the LED bulbs from AutoZone in the upper brake lights on my 03 MC. The bulbs are almost the same size as the stock bulbs. If they aren't quite as bright, that's no problem. This should eliminate any possibility of overloading the BCM. Like, my guess, 90% of 02-04 MINI owners, I don't have rear fogs, so there is no problem with reduced light intensity of the fogs.

Actually, there's probably no problem with having the brake light mod and using the stock bulbs....but, there's this nagging little worry that they MIGHT cause an expensive problem.

 

i think my best recommendation would be to get another opinion if you feel the dealer the car has been taken to is not accurate in their diag or determination of coverage. pay 1 hr checkout (which should be credited to the repair if you return there) and take your car elsewhere. if determined by another dealer to be warranty, go ask for your money back for the diag. it does not matter if they ordered a BC1, these are not coded to your particular vehicle and can be used for most other cars. if 2 dealers say the same thing, then make your move from there. if they differ in their findings, ask them to sort it out w/ MINIUSA. i honestly would rather be able to have repairs be warranty than not. if the dealer can just go ahead and fix your car w/o having to call for a $ authorization, it's easier. not to mention how many service advisors have surveys hanging over their head when they are fixing your car. so many people slam the advisor on the survey just because they had to pay for somehting they feel they shouldn't. some people always fight the dealer when they have to pay for anything; the prices are what they are, it is not "Let's Make A Deal"....HOWEVER, the relationship you foster with the dealer can help save you money over time. a cust who has always been difficult and unaccomodating (and probably gave low survey scores) will never be offered goodwill on a repair when their car is just out of warranty...they will not be offered a loaner car for an extended down-time on their car (at least not for free)....they will always pay the full price for anything not covered...
this is not an attempt to say that there are not service personnel out there that will try to rip you off or avoid covering an item which may be borderline for coverage. i can tell you this though, people that treat me well get better treatment than those that act like i have to answer to them. the guy that gives the perfect surveys and takes care of his car is more likely to get the h/l bulb replaced n/c once out of warranty than the guy that always gives the terrible survey scores and acts like somebody is trying to steal a kidney from him every time you recommend he buy something...imagine if you got surveyed at your job by every customer you dealt with. would you change the way that you handle them? you have to do your best for everybody. most svc advisors work about 12 hrs a day. that is a hell of a lot of stress to deal with. every cust that decides to make a huge ordeal out of something minor(not to downplay a $1300 estimate by any means), takes away from the level of customer service that is able to be provided to fellow MINI owners. be considerate to your dealership (if they are being considerate of you) and other MINI owners. if the dealer has determined something is not to be covered and they submit it for reimbursement anyway, they have to pay for it. did anyone really pay that much for their car that they feel the dealership fixing it should foot the bill? did they cut into wiring and install an unauthorized mod? not if they have a clue they didn't. these type of things being drawn out excessively makes the cars cost more, and the service too. you catch more flies w/ honey... if you do not trust a dealer to tell you something is not covered and give you an estimate, take your car out of there and do not go back. at that point you have already slapped them in the face. take that as good or bad. if you did not trust them, why would you take your car there in the first place? if you did trust them, why not now?
is it because you (despite knowing what you have done to your car) feel that something should be covered? try looking at it from the other side. of course, there always 2 sides to every argument
several people have put a lot of time into this thread to provide very high-quality info...maybe this can help you achieve what you need...unfortunately, posts on a website can not be used as fact, just opinion. however, the tech info provided here should provide an excellent point of reference to plead your case.