"If you compare 2 door 5 spd Echo to a 5 spd Mini in a variety of tests the Echo is always faster. Echo has 0-60 times of 8.4-8.7 Stock Mini ranges from 8.5 to 9.2 for 0-60. Road and Track revealed how they got the 8.5 in the Mini - they dropped the clutch at 3000 rpm. Its not gearing that gave the Mini an ok 0-60 Its the fact that stock mini has better suspension and tires than stock Echo. If you did the same (drop the clutch 3000 rpm) in the Echo you would light up the tires and set a terrible time. A street start of 5 mph to 65 mph would show that Mini is substantially slower due to its 500 lb weight penalty and marginally higher output (7 hp). Since I have put performance tires and suspension on the Echo it does 0-60 in just about 8 if I drop the clutch.

The Mini is the slowest car from 0-100 on "Road and Tracks" current cars tested page at 29 seconds! Thats 8-9 seconds slower than the Mazda 3 or a Civic Si that the Mini competes directly. Think about it clock starts and when Mazda hits 100 it takes the Mini 8-9 more seconds. A S2000 gets to 100 in less than half that time.

I have driven the Mini S and under 3500 rpm my Echo has more power. And thats a supercharged engine. Its not until you hit 4000 rpm that the engine comes to life.

Its beyond me why Mini put a heavy iron block engine in the Mini. They could have easily taken 100 lbs off the car using industry standard aluminum block.

Lets talk about reality of street driving. You want some power from 1500 rpm 3000 rpm. We havent even started to talk about what happens when you put passengers in the mini and that underpowered engine. For $20K I would want a more powerful car."



Not that I care, nor would I ever consider a Toyota Echo over a MINI...but I find this kind of hard to believe.

Does anyone know if he's accurate?

 

The only thing I can tell you is that the 0-60 times for the MINI in the quote are not for the MCS; probably the non-supercharged Cooper.

 

Yes, they are. But I'm not getting the S.

 

Then perhaps you are more concerned about pleasure than acceleration?

That is what all these mag reviews omit - the sheer pleasure of driving a MINI!

 

Well, despite the fact that any Toyota is not a drivers car or an auto with a unique character, especially not an Echo, this person obviously doesn't view cars as anything but transportation.

Either way, it brings me to an interesting question I often ponder. Given the substantial difference in looks and power, why would someone opt for the standard Cooper over the Cooper S. I don't know why, as I bought an S, but maybe some of you Cooper owners can steer me in the right direction.

TJM

 

As an MCS owner who previously drove an MC, there are two items I can think of right away:

#1 - COST!

#2 - Ride softness (the MC, especially on 15" wheels, is much less harsh on poor roads)

 

Here is my response, and keep in mind that my base Cooper is over $20k, which means I could get an S for very little extra.

I personally like the look of the Cooper better than the Cooper S. I must be crazy, I know. I just think the front/rear bumpers on the base Cooper are more in line with the MINIs charactor. Also, I despise hood scoops, and I like the 16" alloys that come in the base Cooper's sport package better than the 16" alloys standard on the S.

Second, like GBMINI Said, the S supsension is a bit harsh, and with our severe winters, the roads here aren't amazing.

Last but not least, all the luxury options are more important than the added power, imo.

If I wasn't 18, and had more money to spend, I'd get the S with all the luxury options, no doubt.....But given the choice between a fully loaded Cooper, or a stripped Cooper S, I'd take the Cooper.

 

Just drive the cars.
Have you driven the '05's? The adjusted gear ratios provide for more power at lower RPM. If you don't feel there is significant difference in handling and drivability between the ECHO and MINI, or you feel the ECHO's faster, buy the ECHO.
Nobody's placing a gun to your head or begging you to buy a mini.
Not the car for everyone, thank god.

 

I can answer that question with this thread that I posted a couple of weeks ago.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=35921

I don't believe the information from the quote about the echo. I would have to research it to disprove it. I really don't care to do that. Waste of time.

My guess is the echo owner wants a MINI. Too bad for him. If someone intentionally chose an Echo over a MINI my guess is that they are buying the echo for economy and for Toyota's legendary reliability. It sure as hell is not for looks or driving pleasure.

Sean

 

Let me make one thing clear, if someone mysteriously was able to make a 500 hp Echo with better handling than the MINI, I would still take the MINI over it.

I'm not sure why people are getting the impression that I don't want a MINI. Since they first came out, I have wanted one. Since the day I test drove the MINI, I have never even thought of getting anything else. I read my 05 Mini brochure daily, spend hours reading posts on this site, and have been told by multiple friends that I am "obssessed" with the MINI.

I'm not sure why people are getting the impression that I'm not fully convinced the MINI is the perfect car for me, and I wanted to clear that up.

 

I purchased my '03 in late '02 after quite a bit of research (I tend to hang on to my cars for a long time!) My recollection is that the Cooper was testing at about 8.5 seconds 0-60. I'd expect the '05 to have improved on that. Don't know about the Echo's 0-60. I never even considered the Echo since I think it's one of the ugliest cars out there.

Can't offer any insight on other the numbers cited by the Echo owner. I do know that my MINI dusts my former car, a Corolla, when it comes to handling, fit and finish, and FUN!

 

The problem is, the Mini is not about the numbers. If you were looking for a car only based on Car Magazine Review numbers, then the Mini probably won't win on many cars. The Mini wins for the completeness of the package and it's ability to deliver a true driving experience. These are items that can't be quantified too easily, and as another person above said, is rarely touched on in magazine reviews.

The Mini delivers something that is rare. A complete package (in my opinion). You can argue the numbers all you want, and how one magazine came up with one set of numbers and why some look poorly, but until you have driven one, you just don't get it. Nothing against the Echo, but in my opinion, they don't even come close in comparison.

 

Who would drive an Echo for fun? That is simply an A-B type vehicle, like most Japanese cars. There have been very few that have really lit a fire in drivers. The Supra, the RX7, and thats about it.

And a std. Cooper starts at $17k, not $20k.

 

I'm not quite sure why we're even discussing this if you don't really care to consider and Echo. It seems like any comparison between the two models is not grounded in logic.

It also seems like folks are so protective of their car's "numbers" and when something with wheels and an engine chips-away at "their" numbers, they get concerned (threatened).

If an Echo owner can brag about his/her 0-60 time against the MINI, why get so concerned? Chances are, very few of us have the skill to achieve the times that are usually posted in the magazines, much less the identical environmental conditions in which to achieve them. And, chances are very few of us would even consider driving an Echo.

If folks still feel afflicted with an inferiority complex as soon as some souless, transportation object threatens their numbers, take solace in the fact that an MCS went through Road & Track's slalom course faster than the following cars:

- VW R32
- Imprezza WRX STi
- All current Porsche 911s (except Carrera S)
- Lancer Evo
- All current Mercedes (except M-F1)
- All current Maseratis
- All current Lamborginis
- All current Volvos
- All current Toyotas
- All current Saabs
- All current Nissans
- All current Mazdas
- All current Hondas
- All current Jaguars
- All current Lexuses
- All current Infinitys
- All current Acuras
- All current Cadillacs
- All current Fords (ties the GT40)
- Ferrari 360 Spider
- All current Dodges, including Neon SRT-4 and Dodge Viper
- All current Corvettes
- All current BMWs , including M3 and M5 (except Z4 3.0i SMG)
- All current Audis
- All current Aston Martins

So, how does the Echo do against this field?

Remember, there is a big difference between the MCS and the Lamborgini Murcielago or the MCS and the M-B SL65 AMG. So...does the fact that a stock MCS can beat them through R&T's slalom course really challenge the level of driving experience/refinement that can be had in the Murcielago and the SL65 AMG?

Let's put this whole thing in perspective.

My two pence,

Theo

 

Before we split,my ex had an echo,I drove it some.It was boring,and scary on the highway in any kind of cross wind.The echo has proved to be horrible in the snow. My MC will leave it in the dust in any kind of twistie roads.And who cares about 0-60,40-80 is more important in my books,and if you use the engines power range,4500+ rpm to bounce,I don't think an echo will ever keep up.
The MINI Cooper is not about off the line times,but more about being quick and nimble once rolling,get a mustang if you want off the line performance.
And that 500 lb weight difference,most of that is safety stuff,which I like knowing is on board,not the weight of the block.The block is the sise of a big micro wave oven,by the time you sit in the car,the block weight is moot.And what weight it does have is right is right where you want it it,over the drive wheels.
Has anyone seen an echo in a best handling comparision
Our MINIs are in a class that costs $$$$$$ way more

 

Bottom line

The ECHO is a $10k piece of automotive garbage.

The MINI is an automotive icon.

No comparison whatsoever.

This is the second time I've compared the MINI to a cheap econobox...what is wrong with me? Last time, I promise.

 

I moved from an 02 MC to an 05 MCSC about 6 weeks ago. The cars, while similar, do have very different personalities. I swapped out the runflats for 17" Toyo Proxes 4 tires. It improved the ride but it is still much firmer than the 02. The 6 speed tranny in the S is much better than the 5 speed in the 02. Gas mileage is about 6 mpg less in the 05 but it isn't broken in yet. The interior improvements in the 05 are nice but I had to get the armrest from Germany. I also installed the Euro parcel shelf. It is very nice.

The Echo is a decent car but no comparison to the MINI in terms of "fun to drive" factor, IMHO.

 

Sorry, I misread your initial post. My comments would have been appropriately made to the source of the quotation.
I wouldn't go so far as to classify the ECHO as 'automotive garbage' either though. Toyotas are good cars. I've had several and they have been unwaveringly reliable and reasonably inexpensive to drive (something that collectively can't be said for the Mini). It's a good car for what it is, but a comparison to the Mini is probably unwarranted. They're both small cars, that's probably where the similarities end. They are competing and playing in very different segments of the marketplace.

 

No problem ..btw, that's a sweet MINI you have on the way. I really don't know how I'm going to wait three months for mine. I hope to God that it comes in early.

 

If you want to buy an Echo you had better hurry as Toyota announced that it has discontinued the model.

 

Proving once again that Toyota has failed yet again in recent times to make a car that provokes emotional purchasing. Not since the Supra Turbo has a Toyota been lusted for.

Toyota owners, [and I'm being bad here and going to generalize,] take pride in their rational, reliable, safe automotive transportation choices. How often do you see a Toyota at an auto-x, track, or, gasp, The Dragon? (intentionally, that is!)

 

The Echo is a funny little car. It reminds me of something that Mr. Magoo would drive! 2minis' wife has an Echo and with the manual tranny, it is pretty dang peppy. I enjoyed the spirited way she drove me around St. Pete in it when I visited them there in '03. But it just isn't a vehicle to compare to a MINI. Really an apples and oranges thing...


Clover

 

I'm a previous ECHO driver who now drives an 04 MCS. I haven't driven the standard cooper but there's not really much comparison between the MCS and the ECHO (the MCS is in a different league as far as performance). Although I will say that the ECHO is a relatively light car with the 2 door curb wt at 2035lbs compared to the cooper at 2524 and it has similar HP at 108 to the cooper's 115. I would also say that the ECHO was pretty quick off the line and suprised some passengers sometimes. But as far as going around any corner is concerened I always felt like I had to brace myself (the seats are really flat no side bolstering) and the car "felt" like it was going to tip over. I belive that the ECHO is being discontinued after the 05 or 06 model year.

 

WHO IS THIS CRACK HEAD? I'd almost race him for pink slips, just so I can have his Echo demolished, or give it to a needy family. I don't think this guy possesses the mental faculties for driving, let alone racing.

Echos according to PriceGrabber.com — 0-60 time: 9.50-9.80 seconds
MINIs according to PriceGrabber.com
Coopers — 0-60 time: 8.12 seconds
Cooper Ses — 0-60 time: 5.73 seconds

Now, I'd be more inclined to beleive the 6.4 second time Motor Trend recently got. However, these guys may do their own testing, and that could be for a JCW car — or they're just wrong. If I'm trying, I usually hit 60 mph before shifting into third gear. I haven't timed it yet.

 

Wow, you really summed it up. I hate hood scoops, they look awful. They don't look as bad sa the bump on those turbo prototypes though.

I went the luxury route over the speed route as well.

I've thought about looking into supercharging it, but I don't have the money to spend at the moment to seriously consider it. Plus I'm not sure if it is even possible.