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R50/53 - R50/53 Auto meter Air Drive gauges

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Old 06-13-2019, 11:23 AM
alconk
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Auto meter Air Drive gauges

Has anyone used the new Air Drive gauges from Autometer? I bought the oil pres. and boost gauges but for some reason itís not communicating with the Dongle and techs at Autometer are stumped??
 
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:02 PM
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I hate to answer your questions as this open a big big can of worms. Let's just start with why, why, why this series of gauges?

These fancy gauges reports what the parameters the ECU provides to the ODB port. I can tell you with absolute certainty that in Gen 1 Mini there is no oil pressure sensor. Yet the chono pack has a "oil pressure" gauge. It is software magic.

If I want to know the boost, the last thing I want it to come from is the ECU. Get yourself some real gauges that give you independent measurements and they cost a fraction of these.
 
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
I hate to answer your questions as this open a big big can of worms. Let's just start with why, why, why this series of gauges?

These fancy gauges reports what the parameters the ECU provides to the ODB port. I can tell you with absolute certainty that in Gen 1 Mini there is no oil pressure sensor. Yet the chono pack has a "oil pressure" gauge. It is software magic.

If I want to know the boost, the last thing I want it to come from is the ECU. Get yourself some real gauges that give you independent measurements and they cost a fraction of these.
I have two Ď05 MCS and the other one has Marshall gauges and really like them a lot but wanted something different for the one Iím speaking of. They do have a oil pressure sensor I think you are referring to the oil temperature which runs on a set of made up parameters. I called today and was still waiting on the Engineer to follow up but if not I will send them back. I want something with nice bright backlighting and some what resembles the oem gauges.
 
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:13 PM
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There is no oil pressure sensor from the factory. The optional oil temp gauge does have a real temp sensor at mount on the oil drain plug. I do not make mistake on these. The oil pressure reading is artificial software make up BS.

Even assuming there are sensors the latency through the ODB will make a very laggy gauge.

There is no match in responsiveness against mechanical gauges for oil pressure, and especially the boost pressure. The two gauges by the tach in his video is proof.

 
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
There is no oil pressure sensor from the factory. The optional oil temp gauge does have a real temp sensor at mount on the oil drain plug. I do not make mistake on these. The oil pressure reading is artificial software make up BS.

Even assuming there are sensors the latency through the ODB will make a very laggy gauge.

There is no match in responsiveness against mechanical gauges for oil pressure, and especially the boost pressure. The two gauges by the tach in his video is proof.

https://youtu.be/LPCAg43arac
Ok then what is the sensor that comes off of the oil filter assembly? That is the oil pressure sensor.
 
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:20 PM
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That is an on/off oil pressure switch that gives the warning of last resort. Software is so advanced nowadays it can manufacture anything out of thin air.
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
If I want to know the boost, the last thing I want it to come from is the ECU
Weird, considering the engine uses this thing called a "MAP sensor", that reads the "Manifold Absolute Pressure". It uses that value to adjust fueling/timing and you can calculate boost off that value fairly easily.





 
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by AngryScotsman View Post
Weird, considering the engine uses this thing called a "MAP sensor", that reads the "Manifold Absolute Pressure". It uses that value to adjust fueling/timing and you can calculate boost off that value fairly easily.
I don't know about you. I want to know right away when events of importance happens. That's why I don't read yesterday's news. Keeping you apprised of drivetrain management parameters at the ODB is not the DME's job. The "news" relays thru a few exchanges... and oh, that including that wireless link of the fancy $250 gauge.
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by AngryScotsman View Post
Weird, considering the engine uses this thing called a "MAP sensor", that reads the "Manifold Absolute Pressure". It uses that value to adjust fueling/timing and you can calculate boost off that value fairly easily.
This isn't like putting a car on a dyno and measuring torque, to then calculate horsepower. Somewhat, but no. If there's a leak somewhere, the OE sensors will be incorrect.

This other bloke is correct, do NOT rely on OBD-port data to try to give you anything relevant to engine safety. Install your own electrical sending units where they need to go, and run the wiring to the compartment using that. Anything else will be inaccurate, ineffective, a waste of money, and potentially harmful to your engine if it's being relied upon for accuracy.
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
Keeping you apprised of drivetrain management parameters at the ODB is not the DME's job.
But, it's still accurate, albeit a little slow. However, I don't know many people who are staring at their boost gauge on a routine basis and gleaning any useful information from it. Seems most just want to know what their boost is, then use that number to compare when something is awry... which the data from OBD2 can be used to help identify without the need of a boost gauge, especially if you have an app that can give you max values of a pull.

Originally Posted by veedubpat View Post
If there's a leak somewhere, the OE sensors will be incorrect.
If the OE MAP sensor is incorrect, you'll have some issues with your drive-ability, specifically the fuel/timing tuning.

Pulling the MAP sensor parameters to monitor boost levels isn't a terrible idea. The MAP sensor as being the "last thing" you'd want from the ECU is a bit too much hyperbole.


This is all starting to stray from the OPs issue though.
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by AngryScotsman View Post
But, it's still accurate, albeit a little slow. However, I don't know many people who are staring at their boost gauge on a routine basis and gleaning any useful information from it. Seems most just want to know what their boost is, then use that number to compare when something is awry... which the data from OBD2 can be used to help identify without the need of a boost gauge, especially if you have an app that can give you max values of a pull.


If the OE MAP sensor is incorrect, you'll have some issues with your drive-ability, specifically the fuel/timing tuning.

Pulling the MAP sensor parameters to monitor boost levels isn't a terrible idea. The MAP sensor as being the "last thing" you'd want from the ECU is a bit too much hyperbole.


This is all starting to stray from the OPs issue though.
So if the TMAP or MAP decided to go to **** it would be so self-evident that you will know it is due to one or the other? You must be a supertech trained by MINI! I am facing the exact problem with the MAP and thankfully I have a no BS mechanical gauge that I don't need to second guess the reliability. You choose to ignore other points that I provided to OP. Yes, think about the oil pressure parameter from the OBD. What do you think that is. A "calculated" BS made up number! Do your homework. I stand by my opinion these fancy gauges are a waste of money and my mechanical gauges are also from Autometer and they are reliable and to be trusted if you install them right.

I have not strayed from the OP's post. And I notice my post was written before your edit.
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:01 PM
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Well itís not gonna matter because Autometer doesnít know how to get it to communicate with the Mini so I will b taking them out and sending them back. So I will probably go with the Marshall gauges for the Mini.
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
So if the TMAP or MAP decided to go to **** it would be so self-evident that you will know it is due to one or the other? You must be a supertech trained by MINI! I am facing the exact problem with the MAP and thankfully I have a no BS mechanical gauge that I don't need to second guess the reliability. You choose to ignore other points that I provided to OP. Yes, think about the oil pressure parameter from the OBD. What do you think that is. A "calculated" BS made up number! Do your homework. I stand by my opinion these fancy gauges are a waste of money and my mechanical gauges are also from Autometer and they are reliable and to be trusted if you install them right.

I have not strayed from the OP's post. And I notice my post was written before your edit.
What gauges are you running from Autometer? And since they are mechanical (oil especially)are you using the nylon tubing or something different?
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:04 PM
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Most likely the R53 ODB port is so laggy - we get there when we get there. My mechanical gauges cost me less then $150 for the set and for me there are no better choices for responsiveness and reliability.
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by alconk View Post
What gauges are you running from Autometer? And since they are mechanical (oil especially)are you using the nylon tubing or something different?
Yeap! Both Autometer entry level gauges with made in USA bombproof nylon tubing that I can trust. Track proven now. For the oil pressure gauge I highly recommend buying the CravenSpeed adapter as it is purpose made fitting for the R53.
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
Yeap! Both Autometer entry level gauges with made in USA bombproof nylon tubing that I can trust. Track proven now. For the oil pressure gauge I highly recommend buying the CravenSpeed adapter as it is purpose made fitting for the R53.
Ok I already have the adapter. Do you have any pictures of your gauges? So then you just snake the tubing through the firewall and up through the column? Any protection around the tubing?
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:14 PM
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Iíve always been leery about the nylon tubing cracking or splitting spitting oil all over the inside of the car.
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:19 PM
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Autometer uses very good USA made nylon hose, and I did some research on the specs. I detailed my installation in my tread starting here.
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
Autometer uses very good USA made nylon hose, and I did some research on the specs. I detailed my installation in my tread starting here.
Holy crap I havenít gone all the way through your post but very impressive. You have changed my mind to going mechanical just determining which ones. Thank you for sharing!
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
So if the TMAP or MAP decided to go to **** it would be so self-evident that you will know it is due to one or the other?
You seem really sensitive about this.
What's interesting is, you're pretty outspoken about the use of the On Board Diagnostics port for, you know, diagnostics.
Let me know how a boost gauge identifies a bad MAP sensor, without the use of the OBD to help.

[size=3]
You choose to ignore other points that I provided to OP.
[/size]
Why is that relevant to the topic of you complaining about using the OBD for boost data?

[size=3]I stand by my opinion these fancy gauges are a waste of money and my mechanical gauges are also from Autometer and they are reliable and to be trusted if you install them right.
[/size]
[size=3]Congrats?[/size]

Originally Posted by alconk View Post
Iíve always been leery about the nylon tubing cracking or splitting spitting oil all over the inside of the car.
There are racing sanctioning bodies that specifically require that you not have any oil lines going into the cabin.
Is it safe, usually.
Is there a possibility of a line failing, yep.
Is it rare, yep.

Other option, using electric sensors.
Plumbing two 18/20 gauge wires to the gauge is generally pretty easy and the failure point exists only at the sensor mounting point. Downside, not as cheap as a mechanical gauge.

I ended up going with PLX gauges since I could view upto four sensors at once, and have warning parameters set. It's an expensive setup, but worth the ability to recall max/mins, and have a warnings set for high water temp, high oil temp, low oil pressure, and/or lean AFRs. If you want sensory overload, it's the way to go.
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:39 PM
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Do show us the said sanctioning body of not allowing oil line into the cabin. Most of us are not into real racing like you if I infer correctly . Just like I said in the first reply it is a can of worms that this attracts.

You know most of those electric sensor has a cheap potentiometer? How reliable is that? You ever heard of keep it simple and the math of MTBF? Please go research on my assertion that the oil pressure reading on Mini is a made up number made from thin air. So done with this simple debate.
 
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:58 PM
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Just to set the record straight.

The MAP sensor is a perfect way yo measure boost or Manifold pressure...all aftermarket ECU's (Vipec, Link etc) use the stock sensor to do engine mapping and control the whole process and determine mass of air entering the engine...IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT SENSOR. So the data you see on the OBD--On Board Diagnostics (NOT ODB) port is very accurate, so go ahead and use it if you can.

Yes the oil pressure sending unit oil the oil filter housing is simply an idiot light trigger...if pressure drops below ???psi it turns on a light. But it can't give you an actual oil PSI, but you can put a T on the oil filter house and run a second (oil line for mechanical gauge) OP sensor for an electrical gauge
 
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Old 06-16-2019, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by pnwR53S View Post
Do show us the said sanctioning body of not allowing oil line into the cabin.
FIA, is one:
Originally Posted by [url
https://dk1xgl0d43mu1.cloudfront.net/user_files/f4/downloads/000/018/694/2017_FIA_F4_Technical_Regulations.pdf?1483970450[/url]]No lines containing fuel, cooling water or lubricating oil may pass through the cockpit.
Also, SCCA, NASA, and other less strict sanctioning bodies will allow oil lines into the cockpit/cabin if they are metal tubing or steel braided lines -- not nylon.

Just like I said in the first reply it is a can of worms that this attracts.
Mostly from people who rather use fear mongering tactics than actually provide reasonable explanations.

You know most of those electric sensor has a cheap potentiometer? How reliable is that? You ever heard of keep it simple and the math of MTBF?
LOL. How reliable is an electric sensor that is providing a simple voltage that is then displayed as a value on a gauge? Provide about as reliable as the bevy of sensors that the ECU uses to monitor the engine parameters.

Please go research on my assertion that the oil pressure reading on Mini is a made up number made from thin air.
No one is questioning that the oil pressure reading is, at best, inaccurate.
But, seems there's a comprehension issue on the topic at hand, so let me help you out:
You comically said the MAP sensor reading is the last thing you would want to see from the ECU (via the OBD).
I replied that the MAP sensor data is used by the ECU to manage the fuel trims and timing.
You got confused and mentioned the speed of the OBD data stream, which wasn't relevant.
You then got more confused and mentioned other issues related to the oil pressure data stream (which wasn't related to the point I was addressing).
You ignored how you can identify a bad MAP sensor with the use of a boost gauge only.
Now you're questioning the legitimacy of rules that suggest that feeding a hot, flammable liquid into the cabin of a vehicle via a nylon tube isn't a good idea.



So done with this simple debate.
When you're extremely triggered and ultimately over your head in a discussion, you gotta see yourself out of the thread. lol.


OP, if you're looking for a boost reading, use the OBD. You could use a dongle and have it read by the Torque app or something similar. The other benefit is being able to read the error codes, reset them, and get basic readings that the ECU is seeing.
Want a reliable oil pressure reading, get an electric sensor and tee it off the OEM sensor, and wire it to a gauge.
Depending of the gauge, you'll be able to get max/min numbers, have warning light parameters (ie. < 10psi and/or >90psi), and have a useful way to monitor your oil system.


Or, be afraid of electric sensors because medieval.




 
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by AngryScotsman View Post
FIA, is one:


Also, SCCA, NASA, and other less strict sanctioning bodies will allow oil lines into the cockpit/cabin if they are metal tubing or steel braided lines -- not nylon.


Mostly from people who rather use fear mongering tactics than actually provide reasonable explanations.


LOL. How reliable is an electric sensor that is providing a simple voltage that is then displayed as a value on a gauge? Provide about as reliable as the bevy of sensors that the ECU uses to monitor the engine parameters.


No one is questioning that the oil pressure reading is, at best, inaccurate.
But, seems there's a comprehension issue on the topic at hand, so let me help you out:
You comically said the MAP sensor reading is the last thing you would want to see from the ECU (via the OBD).
I replied that the MAP sensor data is used by the ECU to manage the fuel trims and timing.
You got confused and mentioned the speed of the OBD data stream, which wasn't relevant.
You then got more confused and mentioned other issues related to the oil pressure data stream (which wasn't related to the point I was addressing).
You ignored how you can identify a bad MAP sensor with the use of a boost gauge only.
Now you're questioning the legitimacy of rules that suggest that feeding a hot, flammable liquid into the cabin of a vehicle via a nylon tube isn't a good idea.




When you're extremely triggered and ultimately over your head in a discussion, you gotta see yourself out of the thread. lol.


OP, if you're looking for a boost reading, use the OBD. You could use a dongle and have it read by the Torque app or something similar. The other benefit is being able to read the error codes, reset them, and get basic readings that the ECU is seeing.
Want a reliable oil pressure reading, get an electric sensor and tee it off the OEM sensor, and wire it to a gauge.
Depending of the gauge, you'll be able to get max/min numbers, have warning light parameters (ie. < 10psi and/or >90psi), and have a useful way to monitor your oil system.


Or, be afraid of electric sensors because medieval.
Ok thanks everyone and the discussion that has raised.
 
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:30 PM
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So form claiming racing sanctioning bodies disallowing oil line to enter cabin now he found a rule that requires metal or metal braised line. SCCA requires you have full roll cage , wear a helmet, and don a racing suit. How is that relevant to a street car? So who is fear mongering?

My point in advising to OP not to bother with OBD has many justifications. For one he need a pair of gauges which happens to be oil pressure and boost. For most of us with the Mini we do want instantaneous update wtih these two, especially oil pressure. There is no usable oil pressure data from OBD, so what good with just the boost number from the ECU? The boost number you get from the ECU is old news. For debug it is certain useful, not not for realtime glances that I want.

There are plenty of documented electric oil pressure sender failure when mounted to the oil filter housing because they have a potentiometer inside. That is the reason many use a flexible hose to bring an oil pressure line away from the engine for the oil sender. Do a search on oil pressure gauge on Mini's. MAP sensor is piezo electric and can withstand vibration of the drivetrain much better.

OBD gauges has their place but not in my Mini. I use one in my diesel motorhome as it drives at snail pace and engine load is very important to me. To that I want it from the horse's mouth that is the ECU. Choose the right gauges for the application is key, and for some of us simplicity and cost do play important considerations.

me afraid of electric sensors? me no afraid of sensory overload as there are six parameters fed by OBD
 

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