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Crawl underneath your Westy and look at the plastic coolant pipes going from front to rear, if they are still in tact. I would be surprised if they haven't been replaced with the GoWesty (or similar) community standard stainless steel units.
A prime example of the plastic issue is every 02-current Subaru where the top radiator plastic tanks turn brown and explode even on low mileage, bone stock cars where they have not been messed with.
It's all about the cost savings to the OEM not the quality. If it was about the quality you would see a lot more changes during production as they know very well what fails and choose not to do anything about it because it costs them more to make the change than the % they have to warranty them out costs. It's never about the best part available for an OEM, it's about the part that will do the job for the cheapest price.
I tossed my original radiator but I do have a few pieces left that I removed when rebuilding the coolant system. In the pictures you'll see the browning of the plastic. At the brown spots if I apply any pressure at all it will simply just crack off. Your cooling system sits at around 16psi and is under constant vibration which is more force that me gently pushing on it. (sorry for the bad pics)
I crawl under the Vanagon all the time as never anyone else. I bought it and the sole master mechanic that have been maintaining it since new in 89. It has the original translucent mile-long plastic pipes. Despite the early scaremongering that the crap AL wasserboxer cylinder will corrode the cylinder head bolts it still have the original engine down to the valve cover cork gaskets with no leak. I see all too often these engine failed because of incompetent indy mechanic that claims to be specialized in VW etc. The main thing that fail finally was the plastic expansion tank that all German cars use like on our Mini. It failed after 27 years, but did not cause catastrophe.
I am in no way saying car makers select parts of the best quality. Each part has a very tight budget and they are constantly finding ways to shave off more cost while maintaining an overall reliability. It is so easy for someone who repair cars to cherrypick on certain part because they don't last forever. Sedan profit margins are notorious thin and that is why all 3 US makers are laughing to the bank with the fat profits from big SUV, and especially trucks. If they use the most reliable parts money can buy only very few can afford to drive. At the current US market even Hyundai is hurting and shedding workers in Korea. At the height of US housing crisis they could not build their low priced cars and light crossovers fast enough. Now they are hurting as Americans are buying big trucks and big SUVs.
Auto makers have been using these plastic/AL radiators and climate control heat exchangers as far back as the 80s. My BMW 320i has them. I will wager that on the whole, these plastic/AL are no less reliable than the old copper radiators. There used to be many big radiator repair shops in every city, and now they are gone like the dinosaurs. The ones in the 02 Suburu might be the exception and that is in fact very common defect because someone screwed up with the additive for the plastic to combat certain chemical, or UV etc.
Have you check the engine bay of any current automotive? The parts that are made of plastic are countless especially those once thought not possible because of the stress and extreme temperature they see. My guess that a car company spend like $20 for that radiator similar to that in the Mini. Try building an all metal radiator for that.
This stuff happens with 12 year old cooling system parts.
i wouldn’t consider their work negligent.
Just because it is 12 year old does not mean it is at the end of the service life. My radiator show no sign of age. The proof is to see how this radiator fail if OP were to request it. I bet is is just stress failure at where the plastic and AL core interface. I will further bet that the plastic is harder than you think to try to destroy it by say a hammer. In any event an experience home mechanic know what to look for and perform postmortem can easily tell what caused it to leak.
So if you hire a contractor to repair the chimney on your house, and the contractor, while putting up or taking down the ladder rips a 30-foot section of gutter off the fascia your house, and claims no responsibility, stating "These things happen while moving the ladders around..."
You would be OK with that?
Or would you expect the contractor to make good on repairing the damages to your house?
Originally Posted by pnwR53S
Just because it is 12 year old does not mean it is at the end of the service life. My radiator show no sign of age. The proof is to see how this radiator fail if OP were to request it. I bet is is just stress failure at where the plastic and AL core interface. I will further bet that the plastic is harder than you think to try to destroy it by say a hammer. In any event an experience home mechanic know what to look for and perform postmortem can easily tell what caused it to leak.
The arrow is the section that failed according to the shop. They explained the bottom screw was “stripped out” and no longer holding at that point causing the failure. I’m not sure if this is correct but I’m assuming when they jacked the engine up they did not remove the hose/clamp on that area causing pressure on the plastic area and the screw - causing the leak and the inability to tighten the screw back in to place. Someone please correct me if I’m totally off on this.
EDIT:
I wanted to post the picture so you could get a clear understanding of what the shop explained was the issue. The coolant system as a whole has performed great until the shop caused the issue(they admitted it). During my almost 3 years of owning the R53 I've had 0 issues with the coolant leaking other than replacing the Coolant Reservoir(very common failure point). The Radiator itself before all of this would have kept going for awhile longer. It seemed to be in pretty decent shape for what my opinion is worth.
All and all even though it was more money, I'm happy that to have a brand new Radiator in my Mini with all the other upgrades. I plan on doing more very soon and I want to post a build thread sometime soon. I have big plans for my little car - I'll have some pictures uploaded very soon!
The arrow is the section that failed according to the shop. They explained the bottom screw was “stripped out” and no longer holding at that point causing the failure. I’m not sure if this is correct but I’m assuming when they jacked the engine up they did not remove the hose/clamp on that area causing pressure on the plastic area and the screw - causing the leak and the inability to tighten the screw back in to place. Someone please correct me if I’m totally off on this.
I was hoping that you will ask to retain the failed radiator so you can take good photos for us to discuss. Without it we will all just be speculating - a worthless dead horse beating exercise. If I were you I would not just take their words for what happened. That stripped out screw claim is extremely suspicious. I doubt you can find on the web there is an identical failure if you know how to search for it.
Like I have written, I wager that the plastic is likely still extremely strong, as you can try to destroy it with a hammer and find out assuming you get the failed radiator back.
Just a thought and speculation. I wonder if some genius mechanic decided to undo the hose collar there at the two fasteners. If so it is definitely the wrong technique. Those screws into the plastic are not designed to be removed and re-installed. It is a one time manufacturing. I will bet that they tossed the perfectly good spring clamps and replacing them with crap worm screw clamps too.
Here is my photo of the long hose that connects to the lower pipe of the radiator. I fail to see how you can stress the hell out of it to strip the screw. The hose is very long! I stand by my sceanario some genius mechanic decided it is easier to "unbolt" the flange to remove the radiator than fighting the pesky spring clamp that he did not have the right tool or trained to use one.
This is the reason my Mini has never been molested by anyone else except me. That's right.
They explained the bottom screw was “stripped out” and no longer holding at that point causing the failure.
As PNW alluded to, that screw should never have been “stripped out,” because it never should’ve been taken out.
Draining the coolant from your MINI consists of compressing the spring clamp, sliding the clamp upwards on the hose and popping the hose off the nipple. Same on the upper hose. From there, the radiator is fully disconnected without stress.
I crawl under the Vanagon all the time as never anyone else. I bought it and the sole master mechanic that have been maintaining it since new in 89. It has the original translucent mile-long plastic pipes. Despite the early scaremongering that the crap AL wasserboxer cylinder will corrode the cylinder head bolts it still have the original engine down to the valve cover cork gaskets with no leak. I see all too often these engine failed because of incompetent indy mechanic that claims to be specialized in VW etc. The main thing that fail finally was the plastic expansion tank that all German cars use like on our Mini. It failed after 27 years, but did not cause catastrophe.
They are a known failure part that has left many a VW van owner stranded. Like fuel lines they should be changed out to avoid issues. I did both on my 89' Vanagon. (Which I should have kept)
Originally Posted by pnwR53S
I am in no way saying car makers select parts of the best quality. Each part has a very tight budget and they are constantly finding ways to shave off more cost while maintaining an overall reliability. It is so easy for someone who repair cars to cherrypick on certain part because they don't last forever. Sedan profit margins are notorious thin and that is why all 3 US makers are laughing to the bank with the fat profits from big SUV, and especially trucks. If they use the most reliable parts money can buy only very few can afford to drive. At the current US market even Hyundai is hurting and shedding workers in Korea. At the height of US housing crisis they could not build their low priced cars and light crossovers fast enough. Now they are hurting as Americans are buying big trucks and big SUVs.
Originally Posted by pnwR53S
Auto makers have been using these plastic/AL radiators and climate control heat exchangers as far back as the 80s. My BMW 320i has them. I will wager that on the whole, these plastic/AL are no less reliable than the old copper radiators. There used to be many big radiator repair shops in every city, and now they are gone like the dinosaurs. The ones in the 02 Suburu might be the exception and that is in fact very common defect because someone screwed up with the additive for the plastic to combat certain chemical, or UV etc.
Then why are Toyota and Honda making a killing right now in the American market? Hyundai / Kia build crap and always has, that's why they don't profit in markets in the world that demand a higher quality product. The big three haven't made a sound business decision or a quality product in decades (Ford is slightly better off than the other 2) that's why they hemorrhage money like it's their jobs. When the economy turns next year like all the economist are warning about hopefully it will bury them for the last time or they actually hire management that knows what they are doing and restructure to run themselves like they should.
This has been going on for 15+ years now with with the calsonic and denso units in Subaru products it's not a fluke thing.
Originally Posted by pnwR53S
Have you check the engine bay of any current automotive? The parts that are made of plastic are countless especially those once thought not possible because of the stress and extreme temperature they see. My guess that a car company spend like $20 for that radiator similar to that in the Mini. Try building an all metal radiator for that.
It doesn't matter what we think, the truth of it is that it's the cheapest part meant to do the job for a set amount of time.
Call it planned obsolescence, call it the OEMs not caring about long life anymore. It's a truth of the market today.
As for the screw being removed rather than the clamp, the reason is because:
1. When you move the clamp they don't always return to the same clamping force due to heat cycling of the spring steel. Some manufacturers even specify "Do Not Reuse".
2. The hose "bonds/sticks" to the plastic and if you try to squeeze it off or use a hose hook to break the seal you risk breaking the plastic which has also degraded due to heat cycling.
3 The O-ring on that piece is cheaper than a radiator neck or radiator when done correctly (not in this case)
It doesn't matter what we think, the truth of it is that it's the cheapest part meant to do the job for a set amount of time.
Call it planned obsolescence, call it the OEMs not caring about long life anymore. It's a truth of the market today.
As for the screw being removed rather than the clamp, the reason is because:
1. When you move the clamp they don't always return to the same clamping force due to heat cycling of the spring steel. Some manufacturers even specify "Do Not Reuse".
2. The hose "bonds/sticks" to the plastic and if you try to squeeze it off or use a hose hook to break the seal you risk breaking the plastic which has also degraded due to heat cycling.
3 The O-ring on that piece is cheaper than a radiator neck or radiator when done correctly (not in this case)
You begin to sound like Ralph Nader on the planned obsolescence conspiracy theory - unsafe at any speed and Ralph has never been the fastest of mind. Give these carmakers some credit. Modern cars are some of the best consumer products bargain and have the best of reliabilities and safety. I often have friends ask me what car to buy and I seldom have any reservation to say, go get what you like as there are very few lemons. I will add that we are at peak ICE automobile and enjoy them while they last - not much longer.
Where did you learn coolant system spring clamp loses their spring force from heat cycling? I am no metallurgist or ME, but I know just enough about the basics of work-hardening and metallurgy 123 to be dangerous. I also have taken metallurgy 101 course and did a bit of lab work. At the radiator coolant temperature, these spring steel doesn't lose their springiness. All automotive parts are spec'ed with a very tight margins of requirements and reliabilities. There are professionals that do nothing but perform reliability analysis of systems. Automobiles are better, more reliable, and safer than ever for the masses. My biggest complaints is they are dumbed down so you can text and eat while you drive. The biggest takeaway for this debate is you keep forgetting you are buying a consumer appliance. You are not buying a purpose made track car. Consumer appliances are designed for price points that the masses can afford. They all have predetermined service life span.
If you stick with OE-quality hoses they last very long time. Mine shows no sign of sticking to the craplastica "planned obsolesence" radiator.
I am always suspicious NA auto mechanics and that is why none of my vehicles got serviced by anyone else but me. Those spring clamp on the coolant system will likely last longer than me. The fact that they so often got swapped with crap worm drive clamps by clueless auto mechanics is tragic, but just the tip of the ignorance iceberg.
You begin to sound like Ralph Nader on the planned obsolescence conspiracy theory - unsafe at any speed and Ralph has never been the fastest of mind. Give these carmakers some credit. Modern cars are some of the best consumer products bargain and have the best of reliabilities and safety. I often have friends ask me what car to buy and I seldom have any reservation to say, go get what you like as there are very few lemons. I will add that we are at peak ICE automobile and enjoy them while they last - not much longer.
Where did you learn coolant system spring clamp loses their spring force from heat cycling? I am no metallurgist or ME, but I know just enough about the basics of work-hardening and metallurgy 123 to be dangerous. I also have taken metallurgy 101 course and did a bit of lab work. At the radiator coolant temperature, these spring steel doesn't lose their springiness. All automotive parts are spec'ed with a very tight margins of requirements and reliabilities. There are professionals that do nothing but perform reliability analysis of systems. Automobiles are better, more reliable, and safer than ever for the masses. My biggest complaints is they are dumbed down so you can text and eat while you drive. The biggest takeaway for this debate is you keep forgetting you are buying a consumer appliance. You are not buying a purpose made track car. Consumer appliances are designed for price points that the masses can afford. They all have predetermined service life span.
If you stick with OE-quality hoses they last very long time. Mine shows no sign of sticking to the craplastica "planned obsolesence" radiator.
I am always suspicious NA auto mechanics and that is why none of my vehicles got serviced by anyone else but me. Those spring clamp on the coolant system will likely last longer than me. The fact that they so often got swapped with crap worm drive clamps by clueless auto mechanics is tragic, but just the tip of the ignorance iceberg.
It's not a conspiracy theory it's the truth. I've been in the automotive industry for over 30 years and have seen it over and over again with my own eyes over the last few decades. You should do a quick search for the number of buy-backs (aka Lemons) and recalls from each OEM. When people ask me what car to buy its always Honda or Toyota because I know they're not going to hate me two years down the road
I've learned not to trust spring clamps during my 20+ years as a technician with everyone from Hummer to Rolls Royce. When you've lost money on a repair or been screamed at by a customer because of them leaking a few dozen times you just avoid them if you can or put them in the parts quote to cover your butt and save the customer inconvenience. Two of mine actually leaked after replacing the thermostat housing on my R53 also.
Sorry I should have been more specific when I said heat cycles. Spring steel loses tension with repetitive movement (aka the tens of thousands of temperature expansion and contraction of components aka heat cycles). How fast or slow it loses tension is dependent on the quality / alloy of steel and the process of making of it.
I was one of the professionals that did powertrain evaluation on the engineering side of the automotive industry with Toyota N/A and I can tell you the parts are designed with tight tolerances but when they are sublet to manufacturers those tolerances are always on the far side of allowable. Lesser manufacturers don't keep a close enough eye on it and that is why their quality suffers.
You debate my point that these parts are limited lifespan but then you admit it also? Make up your mind.
Let me just highlight how you erred what I wrote, and I am done with beating this liability dead horse:
All automotive parts are spec'ed with a very tight margins of requirements and reliabilities.
Tight margins of requirements and reliabilities does not mean at all tight tolerance and infinite reliability. You are very confused and most likely never read a parts or equipment requirement spec. As parts cost money, and the higher the tolerance and reliability the author of the spec have to balance the cost versus performance and reliability. If he over-spec tolerance or reliability the part will cost more than necessary. The art is to spec for no more unnecessary tolerance and reliability. One parameter for reliability is MTBF. Of course as a whole population of the same part, some will fail sooner while some later. A car marker might target some parts to have MTBF of equivalent of 10 years of service or 150k miles. Most parts will eventually fail. Nothing last forever. Overspec a part increase cost and you would be shown the door very fast.
Remember how this debate got started? You ranted that all plastic radiators are carp, and I counter that they are not. Just because some fail to last the 10 year example target does not mean they are crap.
So you are one of those mechanic that swap out perfectly good coolant hose spring clamps and replace them with worm gear clamps because you think the heat cycling is their weak point. I hate to tell you the main reason they are used is precisely because the thermal expansion and contraction of the coolant hoses and fittings necessitate their use. Their springiness allow the rubber hose to expand and contract in diameter while maintaining a near constant clamping force. A common crap worm gear clamp do not do this and they are the leading cause of hose premature failure. Moreover most of these clamp do not apply even pressure around the whole hose's circumference.
Gates makes a fancy coolant hose clamp this has worm gear, but has a built in spring that attempt to give worm gear clamp the spring clamp's important attribute.
Last edited by pnwR53S; 08-14-2018 at 04:59 PM.
Reason: add gates clamp photo
No I read your post quite clearly and replied in turn. The sublet manufacturers will take liberties with tolerances and reliability testing. When pressed they will meet all specifications then whine about the increased costs. MTBF on parts I saw were as little as 4 years / 40k miles. It would be cost prohibitive for the manufactures go for a 10 year / 100k spec anymore in today's price competitive market.
The debate was started by me saying that "I won't even get into the craptastic composite plastic that European manufacturers seem to think is good to use in the cooling system." and it went to hell from there
I will still take a full alloy radiator over a plastic/Alloy any day especially in a hard use application (I have a Mishimoto in my car now as my plastic one leaked at the seam)
I don't replace parts unless necessary hence why I said if you pull the two 10mm bolts out you can avoid messing with the clamp and possible creating issues (even though they guy who did the work screwed that up).
Please don't take the liberty of assuming or accusing me (or any other technician) of less than quality work without proof as it's insulting from someone who is not a real technician.
The debate on spring clamps vs worm clamps has been run into the ground so many times it's not even funny anymore. Nobody ever wins it because they both do the job reliably and it always comes down to cost vs. specific use. There are now constant pressure worm clamps and even shrink wrap clamps (Gates also) now and they do work but they are pricey / not reusable and as always people / customers are cheap. All we can do is agree to disagree on this topic. (note: Nice pic of the 80 series PHH aka pesky heater hose! Man I hated replacing that in mine!)
Where did you get the data that worm clamps are "the number one cause of premature hose failure"? In all the testing I've seen the number one cause is usually lack of maintenance to the cooling system / coolant contamination.
I think we've beat this to death now, and I think you'll agree we have better things to be doing than continue running around in circles
I have no opinion regarding plastic vs. metal radiators,
but I like talking hose clamps!
I used to run some of those constant torque clamps like the Gates example shown a couple of posts above, on my 1986 Saab 900 Turbo, but I only used them on my intercooler and turbo because the regular worm gears would pop off during high boost ( I was at one point running 26psi) and it was incredibly tedious when that happened so I switched to the constant torque variety and never had a failure with them --- but using them as coolant clamps, imo, would be massive overkill!!!
I greatly dislike spring clamps so as I go through the Cooper I am replacing them with worm drives.
I elected to go with some coolio Mikalor clamps with the matte black Ducati finish:
I trust worm drives much more than the spring style, and they're also easier to work with for me personally.
Yes, it's true that worm drives may slightly lose tension in some cases, but checking and tightening them up if needed becomes an easy part of your inspection routine.
I love using my Hazet 8mm flexdriver for just such a thing...
To be abundantly clear, I did not take the position plastic/AL radiators are always better than all metal construction. It all depends on how much money you are willing to throw at it. To apply a broad stroke that all plastic/AL radiators are crap is what I took as an issue. Hell, if I am building a high HP Mini and need more thermal capacity I will buy a all metal one in a heart beat. I further content that I would not be surprised that on the whole, all modern cars switched to plastic/AL construction, the overall failure rate is likely lower than in era that copper radiator were the norm.
I am not advocating the Gates spring worm clamp. They are precious as gold with the price to match. I point it out as Gates design it recognizing coolant hose need to be allow to expand and contract while the clamp applying near constant pressure. Think the same car in Alaska winter and Dead Valley summer. Constant pressure through the temperature range is the point of the argument here. Go do a google image search and you can see worm screw clamps always cause a permanent depression on the rubber hose.
here are the hoses on my 14 year old Mini; hardly any clamp depression on the rubber hose
If you buy crap quality aftermarket hoses but reuse the OE spring clamp they might not hold well because of inferior hose quality such as less pliable or just plain less thick. These spring clamps that all auto makers now use is not simply because they are cheap. They are designed precisely because of the need to expand and contract through the ambient + operation temp range.
It is not just coolant hose clamps. Some German small diameter fuel clamps that are crimped has built in spring ears for similar reasons. There are a lot more than what first meet the eyes for good clamps, just like fasteners. Great pain has been taken to design this clamp for even pressure around the hose.
a small diameter German fuel hose clamp with two built in spring ears (by the quarter)
Most mechanics when servicing the connection, just cut and toss the clamp and replace it with the typical low quality worm screw clamp.
In risking pointing out the obvious. When you have to separate the radiator hose from the radiator neck, they are always bonded together. The right technique is to grab onto the hose just a bit away from the neck and push rather than pull. By pushing you expand the rubber hose and break the bond. Think "Chinese finger trap". I never have any problem separating the two and never put undue stress on the radiator. The two bolts on the radiator necks of our Mini's are not intended to be messed with when servicing the cooling system. The alleged o-rings are not in the parts diagram.
It's a 29mmx4mm O-ring available at finer auto parts stores everywhere (Oh No! did he say use an non OEM part?! )
Look at the picture of your hoses, there is a permanent depression left by the spring clamp also. If you install a quality worm gear clamp properly (not crank the crap out of it) the depression will look about the same.
My car has dealt with 113F (High Desert) to 32F (7300ft elevation) temps for over 15k very hard miles without leaking so I have no issues with good quality worm clamp like a Norma/Torro/Zebra/Gemi Style. These were the clamps used by almost all the German manufacturers before the spring clamps.
I actually like Otiker clamps like the one you have pictured. I used them when I did the fuel lines in my Vanagon. Subaru uses them on crank case evacuation lines and yes most enthusiast cut them off because they don't want to spend the money on the proper pliers to put them back on.
Originally Posted by pnwR53S
If you stick with OE-quality hoses they last very long time. Mine shows no sign of sticking to the craplastica "planned obsolesence" radiator.
Originally Posted by pnwR53S
In risking pointing out the obvious. When you have to separate the radiator hose from the radiator neck, they are always bonded together. The right technique is to grab onto the hose just a bit away from the neck and push rather than pull. By pushing you expand the rubber hose and break the bond. Think "Chinese finger trap". I never have any problem separating the two and never put undue stress on the radiator.
Your 30 years plus experience is truly impressive. You are the only one who think out of the box and mess with the radiator neck flange where the bolts that screwed into the plastic are only meant for one-time assembling use. But of course you know better. Your insistence of worm clamps is superior for radiator hose use speaks for your skills and technical knowledge.
All my amateur service on the Mini with photos are here for all to critique. Let's see you share some of professional work.
Your 30 years plus experience is truly impressive. You are the only one who think out of the box and mess with the radiator neck flange where the bolts that screwed into the plastic are only meant for one-time assembling use. But of course you know better. Your insistence of worm clamps is superior for radiator hose use speaks for your skills and technical knowledge.
All my amateur service on the Mini with photos are here for all to critique. Let's see you share some of professional work.
No reason to throw insults around.
As a technician you learn to work around what the engineers screw up as far as serviceability. You do learn to think outside of the box and the service manual to save the customer time and money.
If you worked in a shop for any period of time you would see that the engineering in most cars is designed around initial assembly with no concern for service technicians to repair them.
I saw you pull an engine to do a clutch and LSD job so you of all people should appreciate doing things the way you want to rather than what the service manual says.
The radiator is not harmed by pulling out those bolts and reinstalling them if you pay attention to what you're doing, nor does it shorten the life of it. This method is just another way of doing the same job.
I don't "insist" on worm clamps, I have said repeatedly that they are suitable replacements for those who don't prefer or trust to re-use spring clamps.
Sorry I don't take many pictures while I'm working but if you look at most of my posts here I do attempt to share my knowledge with the community to help who I can. (with the exception of poking fun at Jan )
Here's my build sheet , if you would like to see what all I have done. If you want to know the how or why of anything on that list let me know, I'm always happy to explain my lunacy
The problem with bringing in your own parts, if it is defective you will have to pay for the labor to remove and reinstall it.
If the shop supplies the parts, they have to cover the labor to remove and reinstall it and get comped by the parts supplier.
Just something to think about before you bring in your own parts.
At this point, be glad they are covering some of the repair........
08-13-2018, 12:42 PM
That's right.
)
. I never have any problem separating the two and never put undue stress on the radiator. The two bolts on the radiator necks of our Mini's are not intended to be messed with when servicing the cooling system. The alleged o-rings are not in the parts diagram.
So does it stick or not? 
