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First, I want to state that I drive a 2006 Mini Cooper S (Auto) with 68k Miles.
I have a few questions regarding upgrades/repairs that I paid to have done to my 2006 R53 MCSA. I've had these upgrades/repairs planned for a very long time but just now have the money to do the upgrade....plus my stock Harmonic Balancer was getting past the point of no return with this summer heat, so it was time to pull the trigger.
I took my R53 to a local repair shop that specializes in MINI/BMW/AUDI that several of my coworkers and friends have recommended to me.
I requested the following repairs be done:
-Replace stock Harmonic Balancer with ATI Super Damper(Ordered from WMW)
-Replace stock SC Pulley with 17% Reduction Pulley/Belt/Plugs (Also purchased from WMW)
-Replace Belt Tensioner.
I figured why not get all of these repairs done at once since they are all in the same location.
After waiting several days for the repair(the shop said they had an extremely hard time getting the stock pulley off) they called to tell me everything had been completed but had one "minor" hiccup.
They explained that after moving the engine around while doing the requested repairs it caused a "Coolant Leak."
I want to state that I've had ZERO issues with coolant leaks or the Radiator with my R53 prior to bringing it to this shop.
The shop stated it "appeared to be a old leaky hose" so they replaced it and charged me for it(Which I understood at the time as long as the problem was fixed). They also flushed, filled, and bled the coolant, which was something else that I didn't mind as long as my car was in proper working order.
I go to pick up my car, drive it around for a day and absolutely love the feel of the performance upgrades but then the next day rolls around.....
You guessed it - coolant all on the ground near my front bumper.
I called and explained this to the gentleman at the shop which he explains, "Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. Looks like you'll need a new Radiator and it's going to be around $500 bucks for parts and labor. By the way, can you 'limp around' in it until we can get you in next week(Which is a full 8 days later)."
My questions are:
1) Am I right in being upset that the radiator is now leaking and they want me to pay an additional $500 for the repairs(When it wasn't damanged in the first place?
2) Should I explain to the management staff at the shop very politely that I believe they should repair this issue at no cost because it was not an issue until they 'worked on' my R53?
3) Is it common for the Radiator/Hoses to leak after these type of repairs are done?
After all of this I'm very upset and disheartened. I love my R53 and want to drive it for many years to come, but shelling out another $500 after spending $1300 on parts and labor seems a bit ridiculous.
I do want to list the full list of repairs the shop did for $800:
-Flushed, filled, and bled the coolant.
-Drained/Filled Power Steering Fluid.
-Replaced stock Harmonic Balancer with ATI Super Damper
-Replaced stock SC Pulley with 17% Reduction Pulley/Belt/Plugs (WMW)
-Replaced Belt Tensioner.
Just let me know what you guys think - I'm no mechanic by any means but I'm not a fool. I would love to do the work needed on my Mini myself but I do not have the space in the my current apartment for any type of tools nor do I have a garage. Any insight on what I should do would be helpful! Thank you in advance!
Last edited by Tyler767; 08-06-2018 at 09:01 AM.
Reason: Sorry - Lack of sleep catching up to me.
This scenario that you find yourself in is B.S., pure and simple.
This explanation that "after moving the engine around while doing the requested repairs it caused a "Coolant Leak" doesn't fly...
Not one of the three repairs you requested, if properly executed, would cause a coolant leak.
In "moving the engine around," they probably alternated in raising and lowering the engine to get the tensioner out and then to obtain straight-on access to the pulley for removal, but didn't disconnect the upper radiator hose from where it secures to the intake manifold. When the engine went up and down, the hose stayed firmly in place, stressing out the plastic connection causing the leak.
Where is the coolant leaking from - especially since they replaced a hose?
My guess is the upper nipple at passenger side?
Bottom line: If they damaged the plastic hose nipples on the radiator causing a crack, they should replace the radiator.
Time to put on your cleats and play hardball.
Last edited by AoxoMoxoA; 08-06-2018 at 11:04 AM.
Reason: Clarification
This scenario that you find yourself in is B.S., pure and simple.
This explanation that "after moving the engine around while doing the requested repairs it caused a "Coolant Leak" doesn't fly...
Not one of the three repairs you requested, if properly executed, would cause a coolant leak.
In "moving the engine around," they probably alternated in raising and lowering the engine to get the tensioner out and then to obtain straight-on access to the pulley for removal, but didn't disconnect the upper radiator hose from where it secures to the intake manifold. When the engine went up and down, the hose stayed firmly in place, stressing out the plastic connection causing the leak.
Where is the coolant leaking from - especially since they replaced a hose?
My guess is the upper nipple at passenger side?
Bottom line: If they damaged the plastic hose nipples on the radiator causing a crack, they should replace the radiator.
Time to put on your cleats and play hardball.
Bingo on the bolt. Hose stressed and cracked the radiator.
I too concur the coolant leak is very likely caused by the sloppy service work using improper procedure to maximize profit by minimizing the time. Given your mileage and location I cannot see how the radiator is near the end of its life. My take is they stress the radiator so hard that it broke the bond between the plastic end cap and the aluminium cooling assembly. An experience home mechanic can inspect the failure point to give first hand assessment.
Ask to see where the radiator is damaged and if it doesnt look like its caused by road debris, etc, id call bs. If your hoses are old its probably just another hose, right?
My thoughts on this is if you told him that it is leaking, and his first words are “yeah, I was afraid of that.” Then they know they messed it up but tried to cover it up. I’d make them fix it and have them refund you for replacing the hose and the flush service.
I dropped my off R53 yesterday and was finally called back this morning.
They said the Radiator is leaking "At the bottom near where the metal and plastic meet" - and still claim that it was caused by "Moving the engine around."
The Shop is not offering to help compensate the repairs and says it will be "Near $500 to fix."
I explained how I did not think this was my issue as I paid for repairs and this problem was not present before their repairs had taken place.
He then claimed "Well, it's not like the car is 'hemorrhaging' coolant" and that I could "still drive it around."
I'm beyond furious at this point.
I'm going to go and ask for a manager in person to see what can be done.
If this is not resolved I'm filing a complaint with the BBB and leaving reviews on ALL social media sites for this business.
The Shop is not offering to help compensate the repairs and says it will be "Near $500 to fix."
The OE MINI radiator is made by BEHR, which can be purchased online w/free shipping for appx. $120, and this shop is going to charge you $380 labor to install it? We're talking about 1.25 hours max to do this job if you DIY and don't rush through it. Have you contacted management?
As a former career mechanic I can tell you that when you start moving 12 year parts around they don't always survive the operation. This is especially true in compact hot engine bays like in the R53.
The flexible core support does not help the situation as when you go to put the car in service position or even just pull it slightly forward for more room to work there is absolutely no support for the radiator whatsoever.
I won't even get into the craptastic composite plastic that European manufacturers seem to think is good to use in the cooling system. (why is the black plastic turning brown? )
I'm surprised there aren't more radiator issues with the R53 with as much as the front end gets moved / removed.
The radiator is cheap and readily available so not a big issue there
The shop not wanting to take care of the customer here is the real issue. As a previous shop owner I would have at least offered to cover the labor especially considering they just worked on it.
I would explain to the shop owner that they have lost a customer, buy a radiator online and take it to another shop. Then file a complaint with your state consumer protection bureau.
As a former career mechanic I can tell you that when you start moving 12 year parts around they don't always survive the operation. This is especially true in compact hot engine bays like in the R53.
The flexible core support does not help the situation as when you go to put the car in service position or even just pull it slightly forward for more room to work there is absolutely no support for the radiator whatsoever.
I won't even get into the craptastic composite plastic that European manufacturers seem to think is good to use in the cooling system. (why is the black plastic turning brown? )
I'm surprised there aren't more radiator issues with the R53 with as much as the front end gets moved / removed.
The radiator is cheap and readily available so not a big issue there
The shop not wanting to take care of the customer here is the real issue. As a previous shop owner I would have at least offered to cover the labor especially considering they just worked on it.
I would explain to the shop owner that they have lost a customer, buy a radiator online and take it to another shop. Then file a complaint with your state consumer protection bureau.
More plastic crap, metal good plastic bashing. Do you think there is any car makers not use these type of molded plastic around AL core? Let me just give you one example. In my recent 2018 24 Nurburgring there was a race team swapping a radiator because of front end damage. Guess what kind of radiator it was? That same crap OE "German type" plastic molded over AL radiator. You think those race team cannot afford a all metal radiator? Guess what Porsche put into their 911 GT3 Rs?
I have seen more aftermarket "upgraded" all metal radiator failed than OE ones.
More plastic crap, metal good plastic bashing. Do you think there is any car makers not use these type of molded plastic around AL core? Let me just give you one example. In my recent 2018 24 Nurburgring there was a race team swapping a radiator because of front end damage. Guess what kind of radiator it was? That same crap OE "German type" plastic molded over AL radiator. You think those race team cannot afford a all metal radiator? Guess what Porsche put into their 911 GT3 Rs?
I have seen more aftermarket "upgraded" all metal radiator failed than OE ones.
Racing is a limited lifespan and weight is everything. That plastic only has to last a few hundred miles and then it is inspected and tested to see if is to be reinstalled.
Porsche also still presses coolant fittings together in the turbo cars and ask any 996/997 owner how well that works
Call CSF radiator and ask with the 996/997 radiator are always on back order because they sell way more than they can produce
In a production scenario price is first, longevity is second. I've worked on the OEM engineering side of the industry and I've seen it way too many times. The composite plastics are cheaper and easier to manufacturer and will last through the warranty period beyond that they don't care. If it does fail under warranty they consider warranty costs a write off against profit so it really does them no harm in the pocketbook.
You can't repair them, you can't re-core them, and half the time you can't even clean them properly without compromising the plastic. The plastic parts aren't even recyclable like a full metal radiator is.
Tell me again how much better plastic radiators are again
Racing is a limited lifespan and weight is everything. That plastic only has to last a few hundred miles and then it is inspected and tested to see if is to be reinstalled.
Porsche also still presses coolant fittings together in the turbo cars and ask any 996/997 owner how well that works
Call CSF radiator and ask with the 996/997 radiator are always on back order because they sell way more than they can produce
In a production scenario price is first, longevity is second. I've worked on the OEM engineering side of the industry and I've seen it way too many times. The composite plastics are cheaper and easier to manufacturer and will last through the warranty period beyond that they don't care. If it does fail under warranty they consider warranty costs a write off against profit so it really does them no harm in the pocketbook.
You can't repair them, you can't re-core them, and half the time you can't even clean them properly without compromising the plastic. The plastic parts aren't even recyclable like a full metal radiator is.
Tell me again how much better plastic radiators are again
My point is whether you buy a Mini, Hyundai, BMW, or $250k Porsche, you are buying a consumer product. You are ranting for no reason because you simply don't understand the automotive industry. Go search for your dream car built with all metal radiator from the factory. You are 15 years behind the time.
I did not say plastic radiators are always better than all metal. It all depends on how they are made and who made them. There is no evidence that the ones in our Mini are not reliable. Find me the posts here on NAM of these plastic radiators failed that substantiate your rant that they are all crap.
The reason many of these fail is due to the different thermal expansion rates between AL & plastic. There are some respectable radiator manufacturers who design for this thermal cycling & provide products that last the life of the car.
Unfortunately, as said earlier, accountants don't always pick the best supplier.
FWIW, I’ve had the radiator of my ‘04 R53 out of the engine bay more than a few times for a variety of operations during the course of my MINI ownership without a failure of any kind. I’m positive there are dozens upon dozens here who will report the same.
Can I make a direct comparison of my experience to those of a lifelong mechanic? Of course not.
That said, PNW’s point of the lack of radiator failures reported in these forums do speak to the hardiness of the R53 radiator in general.
Now, if we could say the same for that darn plastic coolant reservoir!
The reason many of these fail is due to the different thermal expansion rates between AL & plastic. There are some respectable radiator manufacturers who design for this thermal cycling & provide products that last the life of the car.
Unfortunately, as said earlier, accountants don't always pick the best supplier.
Thermal expansion difference is the most obvious, but that doesn't mean great and affordable products cannot be designed and manufactured with these material combination. This challenges is why we have material scientists and engineers and not auto mechanics design these products. Are you saying Behr not a reputable manufacturer? I suspect it is one of the largest, and you can bet they've done enough simulations and reliability tests. The use of engineered plastic and composite material that can be mass-produced cheaply is what make these cars affordable by billions of people all over the world.
Last edited by pnwR53S; 08-12-2018 at 06:09 PM.
Reason: misspell
The shop has offered to do the repair if I pay for the parts.
They had already ordered a Nissens Radiator and explained the cost is $200.
I’ve seen it online for much less which makes me trust this shop even less.
Just a really frustrating experience overall and I’ve been without my car for a good part of the last two months.
I’m going to explain to the shop that I will order my own radiator unless they give me a resonable price on the radiator they ordered.
Thank you all for the input and insight on this whole situation!
Back to the topic. It is not uncommon for garage to quote you a part price higher than you can buy yourself elsewhere. $200 quote is not out of line that this is $160 on ECS Tuning. Additionally, they might have factored in the cost of expedite shipping, or higher price because it can be have locally. If they will make it right for $200 it might be the best solution for you unless you can convince them they are one who broke it.
The bantering of this thread of if the plastic/AL radiator is crap piques my interest for something that I have been taking for granted. I have not given much thought as to how they are constructed. There are the often cited inherent defect because of vast difference of thermal expansion between plastic and aluminium. There is even accusation that the plastic change colour so it must be crap.
I came to realize my oldest automobile, an all German made 1989 VW Westfalia Vanagon camper also has a "craptastic" radiator as well as heater heat exchangers. It is now approaching 30 years. No coolant system failure yet - thank you very much that I have no reason to wish that VW used all metal counterpart instead. I have never given much thought to how these parts were made, only until now. I suspect they are not plastic end caps molded to the AL heat exchanging cores. Rather, I believe the interface is not molded. Why? You can see that here are many crimps of the aluminium sheet metal (fingers) to the plastic end caps. I have reason to believe there is a flexible gasket between the AL core and the plastic end caps.
here is one of countless "craptastic" radiators that all automotive manufacturers use
If you have one of these failed craptastic radiator that failed, you can do NAM community a great favor by dissecting it and tell us what makes it tick, or die catastrophically.
The bantering of this thread of if the plastic/AL radiator is crap piques my interest for something that I have been taking for granted. I have not given much thought as to how they are constructed. There are the often cited inherent defect because of vast difference of thermal expansion between plastic and aluminium. There is even accusation that the plastic change colour so it must be crap.
I came to realize my oldest automobile, an all German made 1989 VW Westfalia Vanagon camper also has a "craptastic" radiator as well as heater heat exchangers. It is now approaching 30 years. No coolant system failure yet - thank you very much that I have no reason to wish that VW used all metal counterpart instead. I have never given much thought to how these parts were made, only until now. I suspect they are not plastic end caps molded to the AL heat exchanging cores. Rather, I believe the interface is not molded. Why? You can see that here are many crimps of the aluminium sheet metal (fingers) to the plastic end caps. I have reason to believe there is a flexible gasket between the AL core and the plastic end caps.
here is one of countless "craptastic" radiators that all automotive manufacturers use
If you have one of these failed craptastic radiator that failed, you can do NAM community a great favor by dissecting it and tell us what makes it tick, or die catastrophically.
Crawl underneath your Westy and look at the plastic coolant pipes going from front to rear, if they are still in tact. I would be surprised if they haven't been replaced with the GoWesty (or similar) community standard stainless steel units.
A prime example of the plastic issue is every 02-current Subaru where the top radiator plastic tanks turn brown and explode even on low mileage, bone stock cars where they have not been messed with.
It's all about the cost savings to the OEM not the quality. If it was about the quality you would see a lot more changes during production as they know very well what fails and choose not to do anything about it because it costs them more to make the change than the % they have to warranty them out costs. It's never about the best part available for an OEM, it's about the part that will do the job for the cheapest price.
I tossed my original radiator but I do have a few pieces left that I removed when rebuilding the coolant system. In the pictures you'll see the browning of the plastic. At the brown spots if I apply any pressure at all it will simply just crack off. Your cooling system sits at around 16psi and is under constant vibration which is more force that me gently pushing on it. (sorry for the bad pics)
Back to the topic. It is not uncommon for garage to quote you a part price higher than you can buy yourself elsewhere. $200 quote is not out of line that this is $160 on ECS Tuning. Additionally, they might have factored in the cost of expedite shipping, or higher price because it can be have locally. If they will make it right for $200 it might be the best solution for you unless you can convince them they are one who broke it.
It’s kind of funny that you mention that - I kid you not, my service advisor said,
“Sometimes moving these cars around we can break parts. We should have warned you beforehand but what can I say - we did damage the Radiator.”
I’m paying the $200 to get it repaired even though I do think that’s slightly steep since they did admit fault.
Hopefully I will have it back today with some pictures! I hope this is the last repair needed for awhile other than some new struts/tires with next months paycheck!😂
This stuff happens with 12 year old cooling system parts. i wouldn’t consider their work negligent.
So if you hire a contractor to repair the chimney on your house, and the contractor, while putting up or taking down the ladder rips a 30-foot section of gutter off the fascia your house, and claims no responsibility, stating "These things happen while moving the ladders around..."
You would be OK with that?
Or would you expect the contractor to make good on repairing the damages to your house?
08-06-2018, 08:50 AM
(why is the black plastic turning brown? 
)
