Absolutely everything is negotiable.....if the dealer says the BS charges are non-negotiable, fine, $400 off MSRP will be OK. Problem is you have to be ready to walk away from the deal. With a MINI this is harder to do because there are so few dealers and the car is still a hot seller. When you've been around as long as I have, (or only half as long), car purchases are no longer emotional events, not even a MINI. You'll know when this happens and suddenly getting the best deal possible on the car is almost as much fun as getting the car itself.

In car salesman speak, "it's not negotiable", means, "we hope you are covinced we won't negotiate". If you take your time and look around there's always a better deal. Of course the best deal won't surface until right after you sign the papers.


R.E.

 

I completely concur -- but as you say, it is hard to walk away from the car at this point. I really would never have even thought about these charges until this post came up (but thank goodness it did).

 

next time you will know to ask about all the charges before you put down your deposit. I live in So Cal so I called all across the US looking for a MINI at MSRP without a wait and without extra fees for interior protection packages and prep fees etc. I found many dealers who talk the talk but when it comes time to finalize the deal they try to BS there way around these charges and insist its normal.

It's your choice. pay or go somewhere else, or stick to your guns and fight it out.

i bought my MINI from Moritz in Texas and paid $50 fee for documentation.

 

It is always negociable. They must decide if they want to sell the car to you and you want to buy it. When I make an offer on a car I will quote a price+tax+tag or an out the door price. If you talk in these terms there is little they can do to change the price. Thats if you get the deal in writing.

The question is Mini restricts supply and created there own demand. They do this so that they can keep per veichale profit high. When I bought my Honda Accord I paid dealer cost + tax & Tag. I always talked out the door price. They also had more than 100 accords to choose from.

 

Everything is negotiable. I just can't do it. Luckily I bought at New Country Mini in Hartford. I refuse to pay over MSRP. In fact the reason I'll never buy a Miata is because of all the gouging that went on the first few years. Personally I would rather drive a Le Car than pay over MSRP. I also refused to pay over msrp for a Crossfire. When they found out I was getting a MINI they were ready to deal, but it was too late.

The consumer with paitence is the scourge of the dealers. If they are the majority, they set the tone. Obviously in CA they aren't. What happens in 5 years when the (gasp) Mini isn't the cool car to have?

Don't want to pay then be prepared not to get the MIni, Its like this, Are they willing to lose the big bucks of the sale for the 300-400$? If they are then nothing you can do, but if you are willing to cancell the sale and they aren't willing to pass the big $$ for the charges you win. Its a gamble, you have to have a good poker face.

 

I like to thank everyone for all your comments and Ive talked to my sale's guy and told him this fee should have been mention up front. He assured me that its standard for every car on the lot new or used its there fee for doing business but I warned him that I better not have any problems with the car and I better not find out that I paid twice for the same service. If I do one of two things was going to happen I'd report them to the BBB and tell everyone I know not to do business with them. Well once again thanks for all your info I have to admit I really was't expecting much of a response form this so COOl.

 

>>I like to thank everyone for all your comments and Ive talked to my sale's guy and told him this fee should have been mention up front. He assured me that its standard for every car on the lot new or used its there fee for doing business but I warned him that I better not have any problems with the car and I better not find out that I paid twice for the same service. If I do one of two things was going to happen I'd report them to the BBB and tell everyone I know not to do business with them. Well once again thanks for all your info I have to admit I really was't expecting much of a response form this so COOl.


OK, I'll drop this subject after this I promise. The dealer "fee for doing business" is called "MSRP". Any dealer that can sell their cars at MSRP has absolutely no reason to charge ANY other fee for anything. When negotiating so-called non-negotiable fees your fall back positioin should be, at the very least, enough of a discount from MSRP to cover any BS charges they claim are "standard".

Granted we aren't talking about MINI, (yet), but I'm sure you've noticed the multi-thousand dollar discounts and 0% financing offered by many car dealers. If they were selling at MSRP their profits would be obscene to say the least.

Those dealers who insist on taking advantage of their customers by charging excessive fees for dubious and mostly worthless services and/or add-ons for short-term profits should be made to pay for this when the supply is up and demand is down.....which it will be. In slang terms this is occassionally referred to as "screwing" the customer. Often without even saying thank you.

Politicians, lawyers, car salesmen.....GRRRRRRRRRR.........
:evil: :evil: :evil:


R.E.

 

I wish that somebody would explain to me why a dealer that sells for more than MSRP is "screwing" the customers?

 

wow... $400 prep charge??? ... and you paid??? that suck!
your dealer must be sooo happy. I bought my MINI 3 weeks ago and my dealer gave me $499 off MSRP, free floor mats (carpet & rubber) and no prep charge... of course the car was washed and prepped to perfection when I went to pick him up...
oh, the documentation fee was $125. i think it was reasonable.
i guess it all depends on the dealer you go to...
i had another dealer tried to push me into higher rate finance 2 days before my pick up. i walked and went to another dealer... who found my MINI within a couple of days. you never know what you find around the corner!!

**********
PW/B MC CVT, all 3 packages, chrome bumper, "S" fuel cap

 

I had a similar experience when buying my MINI....

Global Imports in Atlanta wanted a $599 (I believe, might've been $699) "dealer prep" fee. I was told this includes floor mats, detailing, a full tank of gas, and other BS; note that this was in addition to the $399 "documentation fee". When I explained that I could go to the BEST detailing shop in the area and get a full detail/polish, buy the floor mats at full retail as well as my own tank of gas and STILL come out about $300 ahead it didn't help my case AT ALL.

However, I was lucky enough to live in one of the few states with more than one dealership (relatively) close together. I called Hank Aaron MINI despite them being almost two hours southwest of me and requested a full invoice for the car I'd priced including any dealer fees. It still included the documentation fee, which I've come to realize is charged by every dealership everywhere (not just MINI) and varies from state-to-state depending on ad-valorem taxes and lemon law fees and other such nonsense; suspiciously missing was the dealer prep BS.

So, I took this invoice to Global and explained that while I didn't relish the idea of driving an extra couple hours for my car I certainly would not be paying for "dealer prep" as I was already paying full MSRP and could buy my car elsewhere if I so chose. Within 30 seconds of taking my invoice to her manager, my MA came back and said told me they would drop the fee if I simply bought some floor mats from them at regular retail (which I'd planned to do anyways).

I guess my point is, if you can DEMONSTRATE that you have other options you are not afraid to utilize (unless the dealership is run by a total business moron) they should kiss your *** to keep the sale. Squabling over a few hundred bucks when you might potentially loose several thousand is idiotic, and no business manager worth a damn would go that route.

 

>>
>>I wish that somebody would explain to me why a dealer that sells for more than MSRP is "screwing" the customers?


Sorry if "screwing" in this context bothered you. This slang word is all purpose and can denote both pleasant and unpleasant experiences. Perhaps you connect it with a pleasant experience and were understandabily confused. I'll change it for you.


R.E.

 

resmini - - -

Please understand that I’m not a language ****, and I was not objecting to your use of slang terms. I would like to understand why you and others seem to think that dealers who sell for more than MSRP are somehow taking advantage of their customers.

 

No problem Nick T. :smile: If'll you'll check my post where you originally found the term in question you'll see I have edited it for clarification.


R.E.

 

>>No problem Nick T. :smile: If'll you'll check my post where you originally found the term in question you'll see I have edited it for clarification.


It appears that you either did not read or did not understand my post of about an hour ago (6:20 PM). I'll try to use smaller words and a shorter question.

Why do you think that dealers that charge more than MSRP are taking advantage of you?

 

being a business owner myself, and purposely working off of a relatively low margin business model, whenever a potential client asks if the fees are negotiable, I almost always reply with the same answer, "yes, they can always be raised!"

So, Nick, although I'm guessing you already know the answer and were posing it in more of a rhetorical context, I'll nevertheless make a stab at defining "screwed" in this context.

Expecting to pay $x.xx for something, but instead paying $ZZ.ZZ for something. If the buyer was shown something in writing, and the final amount was actually more it does smell of bait and switch. But, since we've already waited weeks or months for these things, are we willing to walk from the deal.

We don't feel screwed at FiveBucks (I just found out that's what they call it in Toronto and I think it's so appropriate) because the price is posted on the wall and we're charged exactly that.

So, without too much offence meant here, in all likelihood it is probably the buyer's fault for not making sure prior to putting their hard earned money on the table what ALL the charges were. No?

 

>>
>>I wish that somebody would explain to me why a dealer that sells for more than MSRP is "screwing" the customers?

You're right. If people are willing to wait in line and gladly pay the extra fees and walk away satisfied that all is good then no screwing has taken place.

However, I do believe they lie about the nature of those charges and that it is not nomal to charge them. Extra charges like the ones mentioned above are tactics used by the sales team to squeeze customers.

Like I said earlier, I paid $50 doc fee plus lic, reg, transport, ca. tax (about half refunded). I'm not sure if i got free floormats or not. They gave them to me but I noticed a $60 discrepency on the final price when i got home and double checked the paper work. Which proves that even when you're not getting screwed you are probably still getting reamed.

 

>>
>>>>No problem Nick T. :smile: If'll you'll check my post where you originally found the term in question you'll see I have edited it for clarification.
>>
>>
>>It appears that you either did not read or did not understand my post of about an hour ago (6:20 PM). I'll try to use smaller words and a shorter question.
>>
>>Why do you think that dealers that charge more than MSRP are taking advantage of you?


This is why I think they are taking advantage of their customers:

1. They are changing twice for dealer prep. Dealer prep is always included in the price of the car.

2. They are selling products with a mark-up of as much as 1000%. Things like paint sealant and window etching and scotchguard are almost all mark-up. $400 for floor mats and a wash job seems expensive to most normal people, especially since you wouldn't expect the dealer to deliver a dirty car to the customer.

3. They are often deceptive about the charges, either calling them something they are not or refusing to unveil them until the last minute.

4. In many cases what is said in phone calls and e-mails about a given deal suddenly changes at the moment of signing the papers.

5. Their short-sightedness causes them to do things with a car that's in short supply without regard to the dealer reputation. Some people are going to remember the attemped screwing and avoid the dealer even when the dealer's MINI's are all marked $2,000 off. This is a good thing.

If they just put a price on the car and said, "we are charging $2,000 more than MSRP for this car", that would be highly preferable to the sneaky practices that make you think you're getting something for the extra money when you really aren't. The MSRP is the companies idea of a "fair" profit for the dealer. If MSRP is "fair" it stands to reason that MSRP plus a few thousand is "unfair".

A related question is, "do you have to submit to the screwing?" Of course you don't. I am sure, however, from reading post on this subject, that many buyers are either to timid, not informed enought or to emotional about their puchase to protect themselves against unscupulous practices by some dealers. There are some dealers who recognize this and treat their customers fairly. They deserve my business.

Those who believe, "anything goes", are welcome to take their business to the dealers you are defending.


You don't have to agree with me but I hope this answers your question.......


R.E.

 

Excellent points res....

I totally agree that "screwing" in this case is VERY accurate.

It's not that the charges exist (even an "MSRP only" car like the MINI), it is the nature of said charges and how they are justified.

If I'm spending ~$20,000 on ANYTHING it had better be in clean, perfect working condition when I recieve it. Under no circumstance should extra money be charged for "prepping" a car. When you walk on to a car lot and purchase a brand new car, you should be able to safely assume that (at the very least) the sticker price gets you a perfectly mint-condition vehicle straight from the factory, exactly as shown in commercials/websites/testdrives/whatever. Extra steps (undercoating and all that BS) can certainly garner extra price, but they are OPTIONAL (and no one in their right mind gets these things for the most part) and should be treated as such.

Paying $400 for a wash and wax job that should've been performed ANYWAYS to deliver a "new" car to you is absolutely INSANE and should never be tolerated.

They tried to pull this type of BS at the Mazda dealership when my girlfriend was picking out her new Mazda 3.... she (and I, as a cosigner) simply informed them that we would go to the Mazda dealer down the street that instant if they were going to play that game. Their tune changed IMMEDIATELY when they realized we had no reservations going elsewhere (same exact experience as the MINI but even more profound, as a Mazda dealership is a dime a dozen in a big city).