Until I got my MCS last week, I hadn't owned a stick shift car since a TR7 I had from 1976 to 1984. What a blast it is now to drive the MINI !

Since taking delivery, I realized I have the habit, when stopped at a red light, of keeping the clutch depressed with the transmission in 1st gear, ready to take off as soon as the light changes. But I think I remember reading somewhere that doing this might not be especially good for the the clutch, or maybe more specifically for the throwout bearing.

Can anyone with accurate knowledge of the mechanics involved enlighten me please? Am I unintentionally abusing the clutch ? Thanks for any advice.

Joe

 

Your throw-out bearing isn't designed to spin all of the time, or be under a load all of the time. It's supposed to do nothing at all until you step on the clutch. Most manuals and magazines will tell you not to rest your foot on the clutch pedal - it's likely to bring the throw-out bearing into play and cause premature wear. That would include setting at a red light or stop sign. JMHO :smile:
Charles

 

The above post is correct.

Also, if you sit with the clutch in and in gear if someone hits you in the rear and your foot slips of the clutch it could cause you to lurch into oncoming traffic.

As a side note when stopped to make a left hand turn keep your steering wheel straight until you actually start to turn -- once again if someone rearends you they will push you straight and not into oncoming traffic. :smile:

My helpful hit of the day.

Earl

 

>>Your throw-out bearing isn't designed to spin all of the time, or be under a load all of the time. It's supposed to do nothing at all until you step on the clutch. Most manuals and magazines will tell you not to rest your foot on the clutch pedal - it's likely to bring the throw-out bearing into play and cause premature wear. That would include setting at a red light or stop sign. JMHO :smile:
>>Charles


Are you saying the car should be placed in neutral and the clutch released every time it's stopped? I can see not resting your foot on the pedal while driving, (riding the clutch), but I can't see doing anything at a stop sign or red light but depressing the clutch, putting the trans in 1st and waiting for the light to change or traffic to clear. I've had many stick shift cars and have put over 160,000 miles on them without hurting anything.....am I just lucky?


R.E.

 

I throw it into neutral as often as I can. This includes coasting to lights and leaving it in neutral until just before take off from a red light. The only time I leave it in gear is when I am in heavy traffic.

 

>>I throw it into neutral as often as I can. This includes coasting to lights and leaving it in neutral until just before take off from a red light. The only time I leave it in gear is when I am in heavy traffic.

he is right.

 

I always leave out the clutch pedal and the transmission in neutral when sitting at traffic lights. Leaving the clutch pedal in while the car is not in motion will cause premature wear of clutch components.

Another bad habit some drivers of manuals develop is to coast to a full stop (Let's say from any speed between 30 to 70 MPH) with the clutch in and the transmission in neutral (Actual leaving the clutch in is also equal to neutral gear). This causes premature wear of brake components (Pads, discs, etc) because the brake system is carrying the full weight to stop the car, when normally the engine should assist the vehicle in the braking process, otherwise known as engine braking effect. When approaching a full stop, either apply the brake pedal whiole the car is still in gear or switch to a lower gear smoothly to use engine braking power instead and assist the brakes. Moments before stopping then apply the clutch pedal and switch to neutral.


Notice that race car drivers use engine braking power all the time by switching to lower gears before entering curves, thus saving track time and valuable brake component life.

Might I also add that the Cooper S is one of the easiest to drive stick shift cars that I have ever owned, and this includes a few Hondas and Acuras that are renowned for their precise and smooth shifting manuals. The dual cone syncronizers in the MCS 6-speed Getrag box make the old and annoying "Grinding of gears" virtually impossible to do and a nasty trend of yesteryear's stick shifts. I also love the feedback provided by the stock Getrag stick throws...it feels like a true race car.
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I usually stay in gear and ease off the throttle to loose speed when approaching a stop then shift to neutral and if it is not on even ground or if the wait is long then I set the parking brake. Then I watch for the lights to turn and just before I get a green I get ready to depress the clutch and shift to first gear quickly.

Some reading on shifting a manual.
http://www.10w40.com/individual/100186.asp

 

i have a few questions regarding clutch wear...

1) in normal starts i usually rev it to ~ 2k rpm before letting the clutch off gradually...on harder starts, i rev it higher naturally before letting off the clutch gradually...do these kinds of starts put more wear on the clutch? i assume it does.

2) in "dropping the clutch", ie. racing style starts from a stand-still, is that basically revving high and just plain letting the clutch go, not gradually? would the car jerk and possibly engine die in some instances, if the rpm's aren't high enuff?

3) when sometimes shifting, especially between 1st and 2nd, i sometimes gas it too soon while the clutch is still in, and i just hear the engine rev for a bit before the new gear catches...is this excessive wear on the clutch?

i've driven standard before, but this is the first car i've owned that's stick.

thanks for your input

 

>>I usually stay in gear and ease off the throttle to loose speed when approaching a stop then shift to neutral and if it is not on even ground or if the wait is long then I set the parking brake. Then I watch for the lights to turn and just before I get a green I get ready to depress the clutch and shift to first gear quickly.
>>
>>Some reading on shifting a manual.
>>http://www.10w40.com/individual/100186.asp
>>
>>
very good information.

Also I found by going to http://www.10w40.com it has other information. One item is listed under "Weird stuff" then go to bumper dumper accessory the go almost to the bottom to where it says click here for an interview with GOD and it has some interesting observations.

Earl

 

"Another bad habit some drivers of manuals develop is to coast to a full stop (Let's say from any speed between 30 to 70 MPH) with the clutch in and the transmission in neutral (Actual leaving the clutch in is also equal to neutral gear). This causes premature wear of brake components (Pads, discs, etc) because the brake system is carrying the full weight to stop the car, when normally the engine should assist the vehicle in the braking process, otherwise known as engine braking effect. When approaching a full stop, either apply the brake pedal whiole the car is still in gear or switch to a lower gear smoothly to use engine braking power instead and assist the brakes. Moments before stopping then apply the clutch pedal and switch to neutral. "

Disagree. The brakes should be used to slow down and stop the car - not the engine. If you're unlucky, engine braking can lead to engine breaking because con rods are weak in tension and engine braking places huge tension loads on con rods. Let the brakes do their job. (Plus, new brake pads are cheaper then new clutches unless you're driving an Enzo.)

 

Ahhh...the clutching technique and engine braking discussion. Few perennial topics - other than "what company makes the best gas" and "How often should I change my oil...and with what?" - are sure to generate as many different strongly held personal opinions (all with volumes of "incontrovertible" evidence and online sources

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>>>>I throw it into neutral as often as I can. This includes coasting to lights and leaving it in neutral until just before take off from a red light. The only time I leave it in gear is when I am in heavy traffic.
>>
>>he is right.

A question for our friends across the pond: In Europe, just before red lights turn from red to green, they flash a solid yellow -- is this due to the simple fact that standards are more prevalent over there and as such, they're more accommodating? I find it's really nice to give you that "heads up" to throw your car in gear from neutral to get ready to go...Over here in the US, especially Boston, when the light goes from Red to Green and you don't move off the line quickly, you hear it! That "millisecond" warning you get in Europe would be nice to have. Of course, I shudder to think what that would do to traffic flow here, again, especially with "M*******" drivers...

 

YES!!!

 

Proper downshifting causes virtually NO clutch wear so this is really not an issue. Obviously, everything causes some wear but if you match revs when you downshift, then downshifting is less stressful than upshifting. I don't think anyone is saying to downshift into first gear at 6k RPMs to engine brake to a traffic light. We're talking about downshifting to third or fourth on a highway when you're in 6th gear at 1000RPMs and slowing down. That'll put you around 3k RPMs in the lower gear. Or downshifting into 2nd from 3rd or 4th as you approach a light - again going from the 1k's to maybe 3k RPMs.

I've driven stick for 11 years. Always downshifting when slowing or stopping. I've never replaced a clutch (the longest I've had a car was 110k miles) and never replaced my brakes on a stick car before 70k miles!

 

The above comments about the throwout bearing is right on. don't leave your
foot on the clutch if you're not using it. some throwout bearings are weaker
than others. not sure about the MCS's...but regardless its a better habit than
to leave your car in gear while stopped.

kbesto- letting out the clutch for a faster take off will wear your clutch more
than say a normal 1,500rpm. i use approx 1200-1500rpm on regular take off.
If you let your rpm's drop while you engage from a start (not a full 2k rpm
load on the clutch), it will not wear as much. It is actually less wear to slip a
split second longer at a less load than to slip less at high load.
(im not saying to ride the clutch).

Dropping the clutch means literally clutchout very quickly. I let the
clutch out quickly (0.5sec?), but not instantly. This releaves some of the
shock to the clutch/drive train and prolongs its longetivity. The wheels will spin.

Your 1-2 shift up...it will cause more wear on the clutch.
Just wait a tad longer and gently engage 2nd without any slip. :smile:

 

I agree with greatgro, in that for the 3 stick shift cars I have owned I have always used the engine to help with braking by downshifting to another gear, as most of my friends recommended this and did this too. Clutch wear should be minimal as greatgro said, as clutches last a long time anyway. The alternative of using the brakes will cause more brake wear. So, you have a choice of using the clutch more or brakes more, and whichever you choose will cause more wear, but you have to stop so you will wear something out, won't you? Besides, its plain fun downshifting that way, and don't we drive the MINI for fun?

As for sitting at traffic lights, to keep the car in gear with clutch engaged or to shift to neutral is a personal thing. I've seen people do it both ways. kenchan may have something there about the throwout bearing. But shifting out of neutral into 1st, means you have to push the clutch in one more time, which causes more wear on the mechanisms, whereas sitting at the light with clutch engaged the whole time results in only one push of the pedal. Seems there are pros and cons of each.

 

I don't have any problems with clutch abuse that I am aware of, everything seems to come natural as the car seems to let you know when you're screwing up. However one comment by greatgro has reminded me of something I've been meaning to ask for ages but keep forgetting...What is "matching the revs" when you are downshifting? I think I must be doing it without knowing because I "think" my downshifts are okay, but what exactly are we matching the revs to?

Thanks,

Ken

 

You should always attempt to keep the engine and transmission fully engaged as long as possible, otherwise you have less control of the car - freewheeling to a stop light or around a corner is a BAD thing to be doing. This means you should be downshifting until you are going slow enough to depress the clutch and come to a complete stop.

You simply have very little control over the attitude of the car without the engine and tranny being engaged - you're relying entirely on the brakes, which is NOT the best way to maintain a car's attitude!

You chosen method of downshifting is up to you - personally, I practice my heel-toe and double clutch heel-toe shifting on the street. It's fun to blip the throttle and match RPM's - it's great practice for the track and the twisties, and besides, it sounds racy! The double clutch isn't really necessary since the MINI's trannies all have synchros, but it's good practice anyway. Practicing matching RPM's will help you keep your car settled during straight-line braking for corners, trail braking, etc.

At a stoplight, I always keep the clutch fully depressed - why would you want the clutch engaged with the transmission, even if the tranny is in neutral? It builds heat, and won't allow the discs to cool...

 

>>The above post is correct.
>>
>>Also, if you sit with the clutch in and in gear if someone hits you in the rear and your foot slips of the clutch it could cause you to lurch into oncoming traffic.
>>
>>As a side note when stopped to make a left hand turn keep your steering wheel straight until you actually start to turn -- once again if someone rearends you they will push you straight and not into oncoming traffic. :smile:
>>
>>My helpful hit of the day.
>>
>>Earl

Exactly. 15 years ago while starting off a light in first gear (Le Car ), I was hit from the rear. No exterior damage and didn't pursue the issue. 100 yards later, the transmission ground to a halt Getting pushed while in gear cost me $600 1980s dollars

 

>>It's fun to blip the throttle and match RPM's - it's great practice for the track and the twisties, and besides, it sounds racy! The double clutch isn't really necessary since the MINI's trannies all have synchros, but it's good practice anyway. Practicing matching RPM's will help you keep your car settled during straight-line braking for corners, trail braking, etc.>>

Okay somebody else matches rpm's too. Now all's I need to do is find out what it is and I'll match them all over the place. I promise that if you guys let me in on the secret I'll be a good little rpm matcher.

Ken

 

i brake/downshift around 2.2-2.8k while approaching a normal stop and
use the ball and pinky of my right foot on organ-type pedals to rev match than
a traditional heel and toe...much easier. plus the flywheel is heavy
enough to keep the momentum while slipping the toe back onto the
gas pedal. :smile:

i get about 29-30.2mph average on my MCS on the streets with
spirited driving at times. i would assume the clutch will cool off
in neutral while there is no additional load on the plates... my clutch
never heats up that much on the streets though, even after sprited
runs.



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When I learned how to drive stick shift I was taught how to double declutch, and to heel n toe. I use these techniques to match revs and to extend tranny life, it also is easier on the engine. Using the engine to slow you down won't really harm it unless it is a big downshift. Everyone has there own way of shifting, and I think if you have never had a problem with the way you drive messing up something then hey why change. Thats just my two cents.

 

I find that to properly execute heel/toe, toe/toe down shifting safely without the risk of slipping off the brake, I had to modify my pedals.

 

>>Notice that race car drivers use engine braking power all the time by switching to lower gears before entering curves, thus saving track time and valuable brake component life.

The notion of engine braking in order to be competitive in modern racing is a myth, with the possible exception of endurance racing in which a driver might be looking to save wear on brake components. But in any other competitive form of racing, if you're not using the brakes exclusively to slow down, then you're just going to be slow. Modern brakes stop a car SO much more quickly than engine braking ever could. Any race driver using the engine to slow down isn't using the brakes enough, and his lap times will be right out of a bad dream.