I took my MCS into the dealer yesterday to get the ver 36 software loaded and to fix the rattles in the doors and the seat belt mount at the piller. They refused to fix them saying they were caused by the H-Sport springs. What can I do to get them to stand by there warranty? The front fotors are also warped causing pulsing in the peddle that they said was caused by the EBC green pads. I don't mind the rotor issue as I would rather upgrade to Powerslot rotors but the rattle issue has me upset. Any ideas on what I should do?
Dan

1st; the H-sport springs are progressive rate, and have softer-than-stock spring rates at ride height. They are blowing smoke out of their booty saying the springs caused the rattles.

2nd; the EBC Green Stuff pads are too "street only" to have ever caused enough heat buildup in the rotors to cause them to warp. If you were running a race pad like Ferodo's, I'd say their reasoning may be valid, however with the Green stuff, again, they're blowing smoke.

The dealership is using stereotypical bad logic by assuming all things aftermarket are inherently more destructive to the car. In your two instances, the H-Sports and the Green stuff are actually more compliant than stock. Since the dealership lacks knowledge of the aftermarket, their ignorances lead them to assume the worst case scenario. My dealership (Motor City MINI) has similar tactics; they are more concerned in refusing service based upon black-and-white rule interpretation than learning the dynamics of the vehicle and its' systems, and subsequently being more helpful to the customer.

If you have another dealership anywhere nearby, tell them your disheartening experience with your current dealership. Sometimes a pity story will help them actually listen to reality.

Good luck,
Ryan

You both make good points, but the dealer could also very well be right.They technically don't need to replace the rotors, they are a wear item just like tires. And I have run ebc greens myself.They are tougher on rotors than factory bmw/mini pads. Interior rattles can also be directly related to the springs.They may be progressive, but they have to be stiffer on the secondary rate than stock to prevent bottoming out. So they technically are stiffer than stock, and could cause things to loosen up quicker than stock stuff. If it were my car, I would be bitching too, but mostly at myself. When you modify your vehicle you are responsible for what you change.

I would imagine it is up to the dealer to use discretion as what they deem warranty work. If you change one component of a system - like the brakes, they have every right to refuse warranty service, whether or not that part causes the problem. Some technicians will look at mods and like what they see, turning a blind eye to them. I have had a bit of warranty work done on certain things that they could have extrapolated as mod related if they really stretched things, but they didn't. I would heed Ryan's advice and get a second opinion from another dealer.

dohh! :cry:

I could sort of understand your dealer denying repair on the rotors,
but the rattles? nnnnn.. how bad is it? You might be able to
fix it yourself? I did a search on door rattles before and found
a lot of info on it here at NAM.

My dealer (MINI of Peabody in Massachusetts) has never balked at fixing any rattle...but obviously yours is not only balking but giving you total BS about their reasons. So do the membership a favor and tell us which dealer is giving you a hard time. Others will want to avoid this place...or at least turn up their BS detectors next time they visit.

Point is, no two MINI dealers seem to behave alike and so much seems to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

(I'd expect a robot message from MINIDivision to be posted here soon :wink: )

I'm sorry I don't agree with this statement at all. There is such a thing as the Moss-Magnussen (sp.) Act that was enacted to protect the individual from unscrupulous dealers. This states that the burden of proof lies on the dealer to prove that the modification to the vehicle directly caused the problem in question. They can't give a blanket statement that if you modded the car your warranty is null and void.

There are just too many dealers that are trying to do this and getting away with it, and it pisses me off! :evil: :evil:

Just an observation.

JD

I reviewed the warranty book included with the owners manual (3 yrs 36K maintainance section) and it said Mini was not responsible for wear of aftermarket parts but covered excessive wear of factory brake pads, rotors, wiper blades etc. I got on the SEMA web site and the law states they can't deny warranty claims unless they can prove the aftermarket part caused the problem. I sent a letter to the dealer with this info and will find out what their response is next Monday. The dealer is Rasmussen Mini in Portland Oregon. They even install lowering springs and other performance mods at the dealership. I rated them a 5 before this but their rating is a 2 at best now. I am most upset about the rattles rather than the brake rotors as I plan on upgrading the rorors at some point anyway. I will keep everone posted as to how it turns out.
Dan

exactly jdgross: No aftermarket parts can automatically void a warranty. The part must be proven as the cause of a failure of an OEM part - then warranty service can be denied.

Go in there with a copy of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

>>You both make good points, but the dealer could also very well be right.They technically don't need to replace the rotors, they are a wear item just like tires. And I have run ebc greens myself.They are tougher on rotors than factory bmw/mini pads. Interior rattles can also be directly related to the springs.They may be progressive, but they have to be stiffer on the secondary rate than stock to prevent bottoming out. So they technically are stiffer than stock, and could cause things to loosen up quicker than stock stuff. If it were my car, I would be bitching too, but mostly at myself. When you modify your vehicle you are responsible for what you change.<<

This would be a much more valid argument except for one thing. If a problem is caused by a mod, then only modded cars will have the problem. Right ?

It's the Johny Cokren on South Park logic for them to say his springs caused the rattles.
No other cars they sold, that didn't have springs, ever came in for a rattle? Never? Please.
You think a Mitzu or Subaru dealership would have feed him this line of Bull ? About a problem they know is so widespread amongst there product ?
You think plenty of us are going to find out?
You think some of us will forever have lost the desire to move up to a BMW if this continues ?
Ok, I'm ranting.
The loss of a future vehicle sale, to save what 30 minutes off some college dropouts day. Just so some disgruntled service rep can have the pleasure of saying "No soup for you !!" to, the only reason any body there has a job, THE CUSTOMER. Not the best longterm buisness stratedgy I can think of, but hey, that's why those people get the big bucks, right ? It's all about the beans.

I guess BMW only wants us to have fun with these cars on there terms.
Yeah I'm bitching at myself, for expecting better from them. Lesson learned.

The dealer is hoping you won't pull a copy of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act obviously. But if they can prove that an aftermarket part caused the problem - you're up the creek - hence my original statement. I should have qualified it as such.

>>springs and other performance mods at the dealership. I rated them a 5 before this but their rating is a 2 at best now. I am most upset about the rattles rather than the brake rotors as I plan on upgrading the rorors at some point anyway. I will keep everone posted as to how it turns out.
>>Dan

great, we live in Vancouver and will have to deal with these clowns when our Mini arrives. i agree that the rotors are debateable, but the rattles? come on. this is one step away from them deny warranty service because you installed non-OE tires. please let us know how you make out.

Interesting thread.

One thing that seems to be lost in this discussion is that the dealer is not providing the warranty, MINI is. MINI has to approve all warranty repairs or the dealer won't be paid for the work.

Soo...the tech takes a look at the car and sees aftermarket mods that are directly related to problem areas the customer is complaining about.

Whether or not rattles and squeeks are common or not in the car, the fact that aftermarket springs have been installed to stiffen up the suspension and provide better handling characteristics will likely contribute to loosening up certain interior panels and causing rattles and squeeks. Argument over.

Brake rotors are warped...customer has aftermarket pads to help with stopping power. It is reasonable to assume that this customer put those pads on for a reason...meaning he/she plans to use the brakes perhaps harder than the standard street driving situation in which the OEM's were designed to be used.

Now imagine that you're the tech in this situation. What do you think the likelyhood is that MINI will reimburse your employer for the work you will have to do to fix these problems. Particularly when the warranty paperwork you submit to MINI specifically asks about modifications or other situations that may have caused the problems.

Game over.

When you buy a new vehicle, make modifications, and then experience problems that can in any way be linked to those mods, you've got a problem.

Good luck

Anytime there is a question about a situation always err to the advantage of the customer, if the situation does not involve prohibitive cost. In this case fixing a rattle or two in a car that is known to have rattle issues should be taken care under warrenty to promote customer satisfaction and good will, regardless of the aftermarket springs which may or may not have caused or compounded the rattle issue. :grin:

It is the dealer's decision.

>>Interesting thread.
>>
>>One thing that seems to be lost in this discussion is that the dealer is not providing the warranty, MINI is. MINI has to approve all warranty repairs or the dealer won't be paid for the work.
>>
>>Soo...the tech takes a look at the car and sees aftermarket mods that are directly related to problem areas the customer is complaining about.
>>
>>Whether or not rattles and squeeks are common or not in the car, the fact that aftermarket springs have been installed to stiffen up the suspension and provide better handling characteristics will likely contribute to loosening up certain interior panels and causing rattles and squeeks. Argument over.
>>
>>Brake rotors are warped...customer has aftermarket pads to help with stopping power. It is reasonable to assume that this customer put those pads on for a reason...meaning he/she plans to use the brakes perhaps harder than the standard street driving situation in which the OEM's were designed to be used.
>>
>>Now imagine that you're the tech in this situation. What do you think the likelyhood is that MINI will reimburse your employer for the work you will have to do to fix these problems. Particularly when the warranty paperwork you submit to MINI specifically asks about modifications or other situations that may have caused the problems.
>>
>>Game over.
>>
>>When you buy a new vehicle, make modifications, and then experience problems that can in any way be linked to those mods, you've got a problem.
>>
>>Good luck
>>
>>
>>
OK, I'm the tech, I fix it under warranty and the customer is happy and tells his friends, I get paid because there is no way MINI is going to come look at this car and see the mods!

I have seen Chrysler do warranty on a Built engine with cam, intake, carb, headers, etc.

Also they sell mods, JCW, soon to be Dinan, different wheels, tires, brake pads, etc.

SO what they are saying if you buy from us you'r covered and if you buy aftermarket for a lot less you'r not covered?

Earl

<<<SO what they are saying if you buy from us you'r covered and if you buy aftermarket for a lot less you'r not covered?>>>

And that's why Moss-Magnusson was passed---to prevent exactly that attitude. I'd fight it. You may not win, though, because with a stiffer suspension I'd say that the dealer likely meets their burden of proof, but it wouldn't hurt to throw M-M out there and see how they react to it.

Good luck :smile:

I have H&R springs and they fixed my rattles no questions asked. This was at John Roberts in Dallas. He did say that MINI will NOT cover rattles after 12,000miles. They think rattles happen and there is no way around it after that milage. He wrote down that "Air noises" were coming from the back hatch and sun roof, not rattles. If it is a big enough problem, change back to stock springs and take the car back.
-Brian

^^ I just had a bunch of rattles fixed about 2 weeks ago... 26,500 miles... no questions asked.

>>>>Interesting thread.
>>>>
>>>>One thing that seems to be lost in this discussion is that the dealer is not providing the warranty, MINI is. MINI has to approve all warranty repairs or the dealer won't be paid for the work.
>>>>
>>>>Soo...the tech takes a look at the car and sees aftermarket mods that are directly related to problem areas the customer is complaining about.
>>>>
>>>>Whether or not rattles and squeeks are common or not in the car, the fact that aftermarket springs have been installed to stiffen up the suspension and provide better handling characteristics will likely contribute to loosening up certain interior panels and causing rattles and squeeks. Argument over.
>>>>
>>>>Brake rotors are warped...customer has aftermarket pads to help with stopping power. It is reasonable to assume that this customer put those pads on for a reason...meaning he/she plans to use the brakes perhaps harder than the standard street driving situation in which the OEM's were designed to be used.
>>>>
>>>>Now imagine that you're the tech in this situation. What do you think the likelyhood is that MINI will reimburse your employer for the work you will have to do to fix these problems. Particularly when the warranty paperwork you submit to MINI specifically asks about modifications or other situations that may have caused the problems.
>>>>
>>>>Game over.
>>>>
>>>>When you buy a new vehicle, make modifications, and then experience problems that can in any way be linked to those mods, you've got a problem.
>>>>
>>>>Good luck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>OK, I'm the tech, I fix it under warranty and the customer is happy and tells his friends, I get paid because there is no way MINI is going to come look at this car and see the mods!
>>
>>I have seen Chrysler do warranty on a Built engine with cam, intake, carb, headers, etc.
>>
>>Also they sell mods, JCW, soon to be Dinan, different wheels, tires, brake pads, etc.
>>
>>SO what they are saying if you buy from us you'r covered and if you buy aftermarket for a lot less you'r not covered?
>>
>>Earl

Okay,

So in your opinion it's okay to lie, cheat and steal when the result is in your favor.

I get it now.

And, isn't the whole point of JCW that it's covered by the MINI warranty.

hmm Sounds Like my dash Rattle from the little plastic piece right near the windshield. The dealer said it was my aftermarket radio. They will be getting another call on monday to fix it again.

>>I would imagine it is up to the dealer to use discretion as what they deem warranty work. If you change one component of a system - like the brakes, they have every right to refuse warranty service, whether or not that part causes the problem. Some technicians will look at mods and like what they see, turning a blind eye to them. I have had a bit of warranty work done on certain things that they could have extrapolated as mod related if they really stretched things, but they didn't. I would heed Ryan's advice and get a second opinion from another dealer.

For the purpose of this discussion, I will use the term "dealer" where some folks would prefer to specify "Manufacturer." I do this because in the eyes of the public, and I suspect, many US courts, the dealer is viewed as the manufacturer's agent, and thus the manufacturer is liable for legal descions made on its behalf by a dealer. This includes determinations regarding the validity of a warranty claim made by a customer.

One of the warranty claims that dealer techs find most frustrating to fix is sqeaks or rattles. The cause of these symptoms can be very difficult to pinpoint. In fact, about the only thing more challenging to try to find is a hidden water leak. It's unfortunate, but any way out that a tech can find that allows them to avoid having to deal with a persistent rattle issue may look very tempting to take.

The terms of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Improvement Act are very clear. If a manufacturer wishes to deny a warranty claim for an item covered by warranty, and cites the use of aftermarket parts as the reason for the denial, the burden of proof to justify the denial lies with the manufacturer, and not the customer. In the case of body rattles, blaming the springs is a stretch. It's not enough to say "this could have caused it." The manufacturer must prove "this did cause it, and show how. The mere presence of an aftermarket part on the car is not sufficient to void the warranty.

The only exception the law allows to this rule is when the manufacturer offers a given replacement OEM part to the consumer at no charge, and the consumer opts to not use the free OEM part. For instance, if MINI USA offered free replacement oil filters, and a MINI owner installed an aftermarket replacement oil filter, MINI USA would theoretically be within their rights to void the warranty on the engine for oil-related failures. However, since MINI USA does not offer free replacement oil filters, the mere presence of an aftermarket oil filter installed on the car does not entitle them to void the warranty. MINI USA would have to prove that the aftermarket filter failed to perform to OEM specifications, and that this failure to perform to OEM specifications was the direct cause of any condition for which they sought to void the warranty.

In the case of the rattles, there is public discussion of the condition as a known issue that affects bone-stock cars; therefore, the manufacturer faces a real uphill battle proving that aftermarket springs caused the development of the condition. A consumer can easily cast reasonable doubt on any "proof" that the dealer or manufacturer may offer, and a consumer affairs officer (or the FTC) would most likely side with the consumer. What the dealer is counting on in this case is that most consumers will not escalate matters that far over what many would consider to be an annoyance issue with the product, rather than a serious defect. It's a simple case of real politik that large corporations bank on- the corporation has more money, lawyers, and time to expend on a fight than the average private individual does. Victory by attrition or intimidation is still victory, as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on the bottom line.

As for the brake rotors, the dealer will have a much stronger case, since the aftermarket parts in question (pads) are in direct working contact with the problem parts. The composition of the aftermarket pad is different than the stock compound, which is the reason most folks use it- to avoid the heavy dust accumulation associated with the stock parts. Since there is less material accumulating on the wheels from braking, a reasonable person would infer that less material is being shed from the aftermarket pads, perhaps because they are harder and more resistant to wear. If that is the case, then the dealer's argument is that this is prima facie evidence that the aftermarket pads have altered the relationship between the pad face and the rotor face, causing greater heat stress to the rotor than it was engineered to handle. Hence, the denial of coverage for the brake rotor warpage would stand.

Good luck on getting the rattles fixed!

>>Whether or not rattles and squeeks are common or not in the car, the fact that aftermarket springs have been installed to stiffen up the suspension and provide better handling characteristics will likely contribute to loosening up certain interior panels and causing rattles and squeeks. Argument over. <<

This is my point exactly. It's BMW MINI USA who's screwing us. They don't deserve our money nor our return buisness if these pratices are tolerated, god forbid encouraged.
The P.O.S. ratlles, bad. YUGO bad !! There's the only link matters. On 16'" wheels or 17" wheels, sway bar no sway bar, even with Green Eggs and Ham, Sam I am!!! They rattle, fix em. Atleast put in the effort.
If they didn't all rattle , then MINI and this dealership would have a point, and be obeying the law, in a country which they choose to do buisness.

I really don't think the dealership would have had to get the regional rep to approve .5 hours for some felt tape apllication. If they did, that's realy sad. I think this case had more to do with either greed or lazyness.

Not the way I would run a company, or a dealership. But what do I know ....I was dumb enough to buy one. I guess we'll see about a second one.

Or maybe I'll make it my last new car purchase, at those labor rates ? Think again.


:roll:

If you read your owners manual you will see that there are two types of warranty, the standard type warranty that covers defects, failures etc. and the maintance type which covers all scheduled maintance (36k miles) and also premature/excessive wear of parts such as wiper blades, brake pads, clutch etc. The service rep. said Mini did not cover rattles after 12,000 miles calling it an "adjustment" but no where in the manual do they mention anything about a 12,000 mile exemption of the warranty. I installed the springs 9-2-03 so only 4,000 of the 23,000 miles on the car were with the lowering springs. Hopefully I will hear from Rasmussen today and it will be a favorable response.
Dan

Well, the lastest news is that corporate Mini is still refusing warranty work for the rattles because of the H-Sport springs. My dealer contacted Richard Kumar, the After Sales Market manager (based in Seattle), and he still refuses to fix the rattles. This all started with a regional field service engineer refusing the work at the dealer. I quoted the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act which states that the burden of proof is with the manufacturer to prove the aftermarket part caused the problem and not with the customer. I now have to write a letter to corporate Mini stating my side and hope for a better response. If anyone out there has a contact I could use it would be very appreciated. This could affect anyone else out there that has modified their Mini so lets let Mini know they can't get away with this.
Dan

>>The dealer is hoping you won't pull a copy of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act obviously. But if they can prove that an aftermarket part caused the problem - you're up the creek - hence my original statement. I should have qualified it as such.

Not to mention that if they are able to prove that the aftermarket parts caused the issue, they can charge for the labor to discover this. When you start messing with your vehicles, warranty or not, things will wear differently. MOST of us accept this and deal with it themselves. That said, mini of peabody fixed all of my multiple rattles on my stock cooper s without question. They even replaced the nuts on my non-stock carbon fiber hoodscoop.