I have absolutely no problem with caring or judging what people drive. Sorry, no PC for me. Of course there are good uses for SUV's and pickups and such. It doesn't take a genius to soon figure out that 90% of them will never see any of these uses.

I repeat, I know i can't make people be responsible citizens, they are free to do what they want, just like I am free to say what I want.

If you think the widespread use of SUV's for everything but the practical purposes you mention is a good thing, that's fine. My choice is to disagree.

 

You are right. After a closer observation in my Wal-Mart parking lot I've decided it's "225 pound women and 250 pound men driving 6,000 pound SUV's. Sorry about the error in my first stereotype.

 

Our Garage is changing from an SUV (Isuzu Rodeo) and a pickup (Nissan Frontier) to a Mini (loading on the ship on Saturday) and a VW Touareg V8.

Overall our monthly fuel usage will be going down once the Mini arrives. We get between 18-20 mpg in the Touareg cruising on the highway depending how fast I want to go, and 16 mpg commuting to work.

The reasoning behind getting an SUV? Since the pickup is going away we needed something that can tow a 3500 lb. trailer. My wife and I like having a nice car to travel in, and the Touareg is about as nice as they get (Equal to a Cayenne, Range Rover, etc.). And 310hp moves it's 5300 lb. butt quite nicely.

We work together and commute together, so we're getting the equivalent mileage of two cars getting about 30 mpg. When we drive the Mini to work, we'll be getting the equivalent of two cars getting about 60 mpg.

It's all about choice. When people don't want to spend so much on gas, they'll sell the SUV's. In the meantime watch out for the Suburbans with the guy on the cell phone driving and eating his lunch at the same time.

 

People buy SUVs because they want an SUV. People buy what they want, not what they need. It's that simple. Not everyone wants a MINI. I've got an MCS and I have (in your words) an SUV that is bad for America. I don't think that my MINI, as much as I love it, will tow my racecar to the track. My Tahoe, however, does that quite well. My girlfriend and I ride motorcycles, too. To no-where. We're just wasting gas and having fun. I guess we're just too dumb to know any better.

A friend of mine just bought a new boat. The money spends on fuel for a day of fishing greatly exceeds that value of any fish he catches... but it's his money, right?
Lighten up. It's a free country.

 

LOL, man, you're right. I can tell you guys on the Ram diesel forums don't complain of other vehicles or their drivers at all because those guys don't care what other people drive, and they don't bother sticking their noses in someone else's business. SUV haters need to grow up.

My complaint isn't what people drive. It's HOW they drive. I drive a 38ft RV a few times a month. Like truckers, we have to deal with so many idiots on the highways. Man, I ve seen some things on the highway that are just freakin' unreal when it comes to fools driving anything.

I once saw a cage driver take on an 18 wheeler by getting in front of the truck and slam on his brakes. The trucker had done nothing wrong. I am still amazed by that to this day. if it had been me, I would have driven my 18 wheels over the top of that cage and that would have ended the conversation... I have developed enormous respect for truck drivers. They are the most gracious drivers on the roads.

 

I have an '89 Dodge 1-ton 4WD Cummins Diesel pickup. I tow and haul and pull with the thing. It's also great in snow and bad weather. It also gets relatively good gas mileage. I see people complaining of their MINI getting only about 19mpg. That's what my truck gets.

Hmmmm.

For the record I average 25-28mpg in my MCS. If I am running a nice, easy turnpike cruise, I push 32mpg. This with the usual barrage of mods. If I cant keep my foot out of it, it is the low-20s. I rarely if ever get less than 15mpg in the truck no matter how hard I drive it. The truck weighs about as much as two and a half MINIs.

I think I am ahead in both cases.

My problem ends up being that so many people seem to think an SUV suits their needs of taking the kids to soccer practice and running to the store for groceries and commuting to and from work. The thing is, in most of those cases, a minivan would fit the bill just as well but also be safer, more efficient, more comfortable and be a better value overall. Too bad people attach a stigma to minivans as being too-domestic, non-macho mommie vans. I can guarantee that at least 75% of the SUVs on the road are pure overkill for what they are being used for (other than an ego extension).

The Hummer H2 gets picked on a lot. It's easy to see why. It has been designed and built for exceptional off-road capabilities. It's also very expensive. The latter more often then not precludes the former, as most would never take it off road so as to not scratch it up and get it dirty.

Reality check: the H2 is not as big as a Suburban or Expedition. There seems to be more of those around than H2s. People have been lulled into a highway 'arms race' of bigger is better. Smart people (who do not require such a vehicle for 'legitimate' reasons and who dont need to 'compensate') know this. Others are slowly finding out the 'error of their ways' and downsizing. But there will always, always be a segment of society who engage in 'conspicuous consumption' for whatever reason. For them there will be "Excess.U.Vs" (Hummers, Escalades, Navigators, Lexi) for them to make their statements with. It's how the rest react to this that determines the outcome. Do we try and keep up, or do we do what's right?

 

I applaud your courage for being so up front about your beliefs. And I don't really disagree. My track car gets much worse fuel economy (~7mpg). Ask me if I care.

Fuel efficiency is a noble goal. I offer my nominal support. But you won't see me buying a hybrid, because I value driving pleasure more. Public transportation is also a worthwhile societal goal. I encourage everyone (else) to take the train. It alleviates traffic and increases my drving pleasure.

Am I a selfish person with no regard for the long-term health of our society and (gasp) our planet? Nope, not entirely. I'm an optimistic observer with confidence in science. I beileve the planet-killing problems of today will be solved tomorrow. That bandwagon is doing just fine w/o me.

 

Back to the question of gas prices vs. sales -

The Arab Oil Embargo of the mid-70s did have an effect on what cars people were buying. I've heard it said that (in adjusted dollars) the recent high prices last month were MUCH lower than prices back then. I think gas would have to get a lot more expensive before we see prices have a significant effect on which cars people choose.

 

Ditto....

Donna
02' CR/W MCS (gone to MINI heaven - burned up)
05' Cool Blue MCSC "Ariel"
05' HB/W MCS

 

I need to get a chance to drive where you do. My observation of truckers is there are just as many bad truck drivers as bad "cage" drivers. The cage drivers just don't have 80,000 pounds of intimidation with them.

 

haha. Good point. I do the exact same thing in my MINI. I drive it just to drive it. I spend more money on gas and drive more than I ever did when I owned an SUV (16mpg... yeah, baby!).

 

I don't think people's choices should be limited, but I do wish people would make better choices; both consumers, and the folks who make the cars.

As a consumer, if I did a lot of driving on bad roads, or off road, I'd want 4WD (maybe an SUV, maybe not). If I had a lot of hauling to do, I'd want a big enough truck (again, maybe an SUV, maybe not). I have to question the number of people who buy SUVs just because they're *the* vehicle, and then use them (solo) to commute to work, shop for groceries, and deliver the kids to soccer. I think there's a lot of gas being burned there unnecessarily.

The SUV itself is another matter. Its a Detroit creation that, for a few people, makes great sense. But, for Detroit its been a cash cow. They took an inexpensive truck chassis and created a 'premium' vehicle with a high profit margin, low safety margin (although that's finally improving), and managed to avoid federal milage regulations. It was such a success that they placed all their 'eggs' in this basket and ingnored the development of hybred alternatives. Now GM is planning to lose 25,000 American workers and Japan is having Detroit for breakfast. Talk about poor choices.

 

I try to participate in this environmental protection thing by driving a fuel efficent 4 banger (38-40mpg) a 04 CivicVP although I could've went with
a V6 TL or something more appealing to the public...

But then I take the Airbus to Detroit every week so not sure if it amounts
to anything...


And I pretty much always use FedEX overnight for all my car parts...



And, I let my air conditioner run while Im not at home....


Do I really make that much of a difference at the end?

 

For friends who say we would get killed in a crash in a Mini.... Show them this,

http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/Cra...operVsFordF150

 

Not alone you don't, but multiply yourself by 300,000,000 and what you do starts to matter.

 

That's true. We hit close to $1 during those days and it was brutal, and that was with shortages of fuel. The prices would have been even higher had they not used wage and price controls - a very bad idea. The result of that was high inflation and 20% interest rates. When I bought my first home in 1985, I got a "great" deal on the interest rate. 14.5% with a 5 year pre-payment penalty.

The scramble to build small cars ended up in the Pinto and other garbage automobiles. And is when Honda and others were positioned to leverage the situation. It was ugly. Combined with new smog devices, we had to drive cars that when brand new would stall when you turned left.

So all I can say is, enjoy $3 per gallon now because that is still cheap. According the latest, people are saying it will take $6 per gallon to make a big difference in use patterns. We'll hit $60 a barrel latter this year and $80 to $100 in a few years. Just in time for retiring baby boomers to demand even more oil than they currently do.

Problem is, gas prices will never be lower because we probably have found all the oil there is in the earth. China's need for oil is increasing and will continue. In the U.S. no one wants to build new refineries because oil is on the way out, for autos anyway. I think we're in for some dark days ahead, until new fuels become viable.

 

Where you gonna get 300 million people to drive a Civic!

 

There is a portion of society that for one reason or another feel they are entitled or if they dont get their 'share', someone else will. In other words, if it were no longer available, at least they got more than the next guy. For a demonstration, simply go to a restaurant with an all-you-can-eat buffet. Watch what happens in the line when if it looks like this when viewed from, er, behind:

Buffet==> /______________________________/

Line===> (_|_) (_|_) (_|_) (__|__) (_|_)

Make note of the person at the far right and how much they get. I've seen some bizzarre actions occur in similar situations.

 

I avoid buffets for the purpose of trying to avoid this:

(_i_)...(__i__)...(___i___)...(____i____)...(_____ i_____)

Typical regular buttfet user over time.

"All you can eat it is a suggestion, not a requirement"

 

In a lame attempt to get away from pudgy buffet butts and back on topic, I have to say that in addition to the MINI, we also have an old Jeep, a Honda Pilot, and a motorcycle. We're a family of four with two big, goofy hyper dogs. No way we can get the kids, dogs, and stuff in the MINI, hence the Pilot.

IMHO, there's not much the 'big' SUVs can do that the Pilot can't - it doesn't have serious off-road capability (not often used on the big bruisers anyhow) and it can only tow 4,500 lbs. It still gets decent mileage and carries up to 8 people when it needs to. AWD is good in the Colorado winter, on forest roads, and pulling my quad and trailer to the trailheads. Do we NEED an SUV? Probably not, but it's the best combination of space, utility, and efficiency we could find. Yukons, 'Slades, Excursions - all overkill for us, but they have their place for the small number of people who actually DO need 'em. Of course, 90% of the big 'uns I see wallowing down the road have one small mama driving, with maybe a terrier on her lap. . .not really for me. . .

So, to paraphrase Voltaire, "I may disagree with your choice of vehicle, but I will defend to the death your right to drive it." Or something like that. . .

:smile:

 

THANK YOU ! I was going to say the same. I have found that alot of people in the mini comunity are kinda closed minded to anything that isnt a mini. I love my mini but I would never have it for my only car.

Many of you do make good points but again, if they want to drive an excursion or f250 with advd and playstation SO WHAT !

Btw, I have a 2005 Ram quad cab 4X4 with a HEMI a 67 chevelle with a stroked V8, 2 Mini's a ford F250, 3 quads, and 2 wheeler motorcycle.

I have never purchased a vehicle based on its mileage ratings. I buy them to drive and enjoy however I want. And I love to off road the ram, it climbs hills and pulls the trailer nicely. And the wife drives it to workl every day ALONE!

 

I've been around long enough to remember the oil embargo of the '70s and having to buy gas on even or odd days, etc. I've heard for around 30 years that we're running out of fossil fuels - oil is going through the roof, cant' last, etc. Maybe, maybe not. Whatever the largely speculation driven cost of a barrel of crude, if you're observant you cannot help but notice that almost every time some "crisis" event or trigger (curtailed production, "refinery" problems, etc.) occurs, and gas prices go up by leaps and bounds, the rationale given is that the industry is responding to the increased costs, not "gouging." I'm not sure how that squares with the record profits that are posted a few months later. I for one feel gouged, and I don't care what people in Europe are paying per gallon - the taxes levied on each gallon there are astronomical. Whatever your beliefs about the inherent goodness and efficiency of free market capitalism, gasoline and vehicle travel in this country is akin to other basic utilities like electricity and water - a necessity. Many of us who love driving also treat it as a hobby & a daily pleasure. Soooo - if you feel gouged, and like me the distaste for certain middle eastern oil-producing regimes is rivaled by your distaste and distrust for the oil industry, the rational response is to purchase less of their product, and find something you love to drive that gets better fuel economy - like a Mini!

 

Ahmen
But I still need the use of a Full size truck from time to time.

 

I would never argue with someone who really feels they need an SUV or big truck. No problem...there are some pretty good reasons out there. What strikes me as odd is the strangely-frequent experience of being out in traffic in my Cooper and being literally surrounded by huge SUVs...most w/ one driver. At these times it seems 8 out of 10 vehicles in my immediate neighborhood are SUVs! Now maybe all the contractors are out at the same time...or all the soccer moms are picking up their kids at the same time (who knows...maybe its just a fluke) but it seems likely that the needs of many of these drivers would be better met by a different type of vehicle if they would only more carefully consider such a thing. Makes you wonder who's driving this train.

 

I'm late to this thread, just had time to skim it, so regrets for any repetition of what others have posted.

I strongly agree that many large bulgemobile SUVs and trucks aren't innately bad for being huge gas guzzlers. What I don't get is people buying them when not needing them for function. It's their right (and I won't try to pry someone's H2 key from their cold dead hands etc.), I just don't get why they want them.

What does wiff me is that the government classifies SUVs and trucks allowing people to have tax incentives to drive them when their business needs don't require it. There's a podiastrist and at least one realtor here who drive H2 in part because a tax break pays much of the cost. At the same time tax incentives for gas efficient cars and particularly hybrids are drying up.

I've owned two SUV's and they weren't fun to drive. I do sometimes wish I had one of them simply to haul things, but only for then.