What's a good track day car, faster than a MINI.
 

I was wondering what a good track day car would be for us, one which is faster than a MINI. Something capable of going around Laguna Seca about 10 seconds a lap faster at would be good, Randy Probst can manage 1:52. (I could only manage 1:54 in a similar MINI, or 1:53 in a JCW.)

Apart from that it must be fun, probably needs to have a hardtop, be available new and can get us to the track in relative comfort. (So would need two seats and at least as much luggage space as a MINI boot.) We're not exactly small people, I don't fit in a Lotus Exige and I have no headroom in a Miata with the top up. I'm more interested in finesse than raw power. Cost is not that much of a consideration, but I'll separate the ideas into up to $100,000 and $100,000+.

I have some ideas, but I won't bias the responses.

911

Plenty of BRZ/S2K options as they seem to be the primary weapons down here in SoCal at Button and Streets. E36/46 M3's are fun handling cars or Evo X MR is another good option.

Don't make a final decision until you have checked out the Scion FR-S. Not a lot in the power department but their handling is incredible.

$100k, I would look at a GT-R

Are you really looking to spend $100k on something you might wad up at 100+ mph and have to write off because the insurance company will give you nothing for it?

If you can't afford to light it on fire and walk away it shouldn't be a track car.

For that kind of cash buy a truck/trailer and a dedicated track car. Like someone's TTS corvette. Heck you could buy a super well sorted GT1 car for that kind of money and blow the socks off everyone at the event.

Are you going to be running street tires? If not you're going to need some way to get them to the track plus tools to change them.

Have you considered how much more money larger/faster cars cost to run at the track? You're probably at looking at doubling your daily cost to run the car with more expensive brakes, fuel, tires.

I mean lets take an STI for example. $35k new and pretty capable in stock form. Throw maybe $6k at it to make it really ready for heavy track duty. With two drivers you're probably looking at $1200 a DAY to run it including cost of entry fees, tires, brakes, fuel, wear and tear items.

If it were me looking to go fast I'd probably end up in someone's well sorted C5Z06. Once you fix the issues with the car it will just pound out the fast laps one after the other.

But hey it's not my money... p-car or GTFO :razz:

We could take the hit if necessary. The chances of needing to write the car off are a lot less than if you deliberately set fire to it, so they're not really equivalent. At all the track days I've been to, I know of one total wreck and maybe 3-4 fender benders. With maybe 100 cars per event that's about a 0.007-0.02% chance/year of an incident. Though at $100,000 I though about maybe I'd get insurance. You can get insurance for about 3.4% per year. The ROI of not getting isurance makes more sense on those odds.

The problem with that is you end up driving a truck. But you could buy a real race car, like an SRF and then use the change to pay someone to bring it to the track for you. (Arrive and drive.)

We'll probably carry on using street tires, its worked for us so far.

I hadn't but we could have a budget to allow for that.


Which particular p-car or 911? Unless you're going for a plain Carrera it looks like the 911 is in the $100k+ category. I don't know how fast the Carrera is, everyone is more interested in the faster Porsches. I have actually driven several different Porsche at Skip Barber or at at Porsche roadshow. They all seemed pretty nice. Though a 09 vintage 911 is one of the few cars I managed to spin (on an autocross course). The 911 always seemed a bit ungainly.

I'd really like to drive an FR-S/BRZ sometime, but its not that fast. Only about as fast as a MINI as far as i can tell.

s2k and E36/46 aren't produced any more.

The Evo doesn't seem that fast, and its based on something really boring. That's also a problems with an M3. I'd prefer something designed to be a fast car, rather than adapted.

I've never really liked the idea of the GT-R. It probably more power than finesse.

I've never thought of the Corvette as my sort of car, but it does seem to be a very well sorted car and amazingly cheap. I have difficulty with the concept of a Chevy.

May not be produced anymore but look online ANYWHERE and you can find them. bimmerforums, e90post, m3post, craigslist, whatever honda forums. Always for sale.

BRZ may not be fast, but a RWD that outshines the S2K in handling is tough to overlook.

EVO's are fast, depends on what you end up doing with it. FFTEC comes to mind when I think of the EVO. But you're right about the boring part. :lol:

I'm considering the car as it comes from the factory. The equivalent time for the Evo looks to be 1:48, so doesn't make the cut.

I beg beg to differ since many cars at the track are primarily modified at least that is what I've seen on all my track days. Sure you'll spot that one guy with nothing but his helmet and sticky tires but at the end of the day you'll end up wanting more downforce/aero, more grip, and possibly more power.

I remember when the FRS/BRZ came out. There were already 6 of them at Button and 2 months later I didn't catch a single stock one there. Dead serious too.

With that budget: 911

As you get into more expensive cars it gets easier and easier to terminally compromise a chassis. However, if you're just doing HPDEs and lapping days you aren't really driving at 10/10ths so the chance of having an off is greatly reduced. Just don't do something stupid :lol:

Trucks are way more comfy to drive around than a car packed with all the crap necessary for a track day. Also, you can get home if your car has a failure (which it will). Some tracks also offer storage at the track so you could look into that.

If you want to go fast slicks are your friend. Keep in mind they introduce a whole lot more stress than the car was really designed for. Enough so that S2000s rip control arms from their mounts and front hubs on mustangs explode and oil doesn't drain properly and the sump starves and and and...

Oh I didn't realize you were looking at new ones. I'd get a cayman personally...

so what?

The Evo is fast and based on something boring. That doesn't make it unsuitable for track work. I'd argue an M3 is just as much purpose built as a porsche. Keep in mind these cars are all made so "dumb guy with a heavy foot" can get from point A to B without hurting himself too badly. Unless you're looking at some really silly production car like an Atom or a Noble or a TVR.

A well sorted corvette is crazy fast.

There are very very few cars out there that come from the factory able to handle regular track days. Regardless of what the advertisements are telling you. Anything with an LS will have oiling problems (although probably not with street tires). Anything "cheaper" will need brake upgrades. Not to mention that stock cars tend to suck to drive on track as they're all biased towards understeer.

Maybe I missed the point of your initial post. Are you looking for something that is mostly a daily but you do track days with occasionally? How many track days? How fast are you (ie. which group do you run with)? If you're really looking for a track car then buy something dedicated to the track that doesn't have to get you to work the next day. You can prep it without making compromises and it will be a better more reliable car for it.

IMHO if you really want to go fast buy a roundy-round car and make it turn both directions...
http://witchdoctormotorsports.com/ch208pic29.jpg

Maybe you did. I'm basically looking for a replacement for Algy which will get me going a bit faster. As I stated, I have a specific lap time goal in mind, 10 seconds a lap faster at Laguna Seca. The car should be capable of going that fast, never mind the driver at the moment. As such Motortrend's lap times are an interesting resource. They have a whole database of lap times at Laguna Seca with most other variables controlled. They use the same driver, Randy Probst, who can probably realize most of the potential of a car. They tend to drive the cars unmodified as supplied by the manufacturer. Randy's time in an 08 Cooper-S was 1:52. So I'm looking for a car, which can run unmodified, from the factory a Laguna lap time of 1:42 (or better). If Randy has a lap that's good evidence of the car's capability. The car doesn't have to be capable of anything faster than that.

With Algy he's one of our daily drivers. I may commute in him, 5 miles over city streets, or Cathy may go shopping in him, or we may go on a short road trip. We also take him to track days, about 6 a year, the regular tracks are 1-3 hours away, and he gets us and our luggage there in comfort. We might want to go a little further afield occasionally. Algy is largely unmodified, I have very little interest in modifying cars, I want one which is usable from the factory. I do have dedicated track wheels/tires, I put those on at home and drive to the track like that. I have needed to change Algy's brake pads, which has been getting to be a problem recently. If it weren't for the pads, we'd drive to the track, drive, and then drive home again with very little need for any excess crap. With the brake issues, we also need to take extra tools, a jack and a jack stand.

How fast am I? Reasonably fast, I'm a few seconds behind Randy Probst in the MINI. If it were up to me I'd be running in the Intermediate group at track days, where I'd be around mid pack in the MINI. As we're sharing a drive, Cathy is running in the intermediate group, so I've been running in the advanced groups, where the MINI is the slowest car out there. I'm quite comfortable running in the advanced group, but being a bit faster might be nice. About 10 seconds a lap faster would do me. Hence the stated goal.

We're only interested in buying new. We're not interested in having to modify the car. Hence the requirement "be available new", I wasn't that explicit about no modifications. I wasn't that explicit about being a daily driver, I thought "get us to the track in relative com for" covered that.

Motortrend's laptime (which as stated is my benchmark) is 1:48, it doesn't make the cut.

Its still a 3 series, which is not my sort of car. It is very capable, but is dead common, the most common sort of Bimmer as far as I can tell (at the events I tend to go to). They're somewhat of a hazard in the intermediate groups. At my last BMW club event over 1/3rd were M3s, only one M3 beat me on index (he won the event), and I raw timed 5 of them (I was driving the JustaCooper).

The Atom doesn't have a top, and TVRs scare me. Do the Nobles even get to the US? I'm with Top Gear on this as I come from Leicester as well, it doesn't inspire confidence.

As stated, I have a stated goal, it doesn't have to be faster than that.

I'm still wondering which 911, they make so many different ones.

Cayman R

Spent a weekend at LVMS with Team Shelby a few years back. More fun than a barrel of monkeys. Love MINI as much or equal but Shelby Mustangs are fun at the track too. I have a 2008 Shelby GT/SC convertible that is a Sunday, warm weather, car show, garage queen nowadays. Tasca did the SC upgrade. Those guys sometimes get passed in the corners by a MINI!

If you're looking for something that runs faster than a 42 it seems like there are many options based on the motor trend laps... http://www.motortrend.com/features/laguna_lap/ so find a car you like and go with it.

I'm not going to continue to try to point this out to you. Trying to find a car that will run 1:42s for an entire 20 minute session is going to be hugely difficult. Pobst goes out and runs a few slow warm up laps, then a few fast laps, then a few cool down laps. I can almost guarantee the brakes on whatever he's driving are pretty much cooked after a few fast laps. Unless they're some huge carbon-ceramic binders off a Ferrari. You're going to need to swap pads every event at a minimum. Remember as you go faster and faster you're harder and harder on the brakes. Not to mention harder on everything else on the car.

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Pobst's descriptions of the Caymans would point me in that direction. The "S" begins at $63,800. By all accounts the optional driving aids make you faster rather than slower.

I'm already having brake problems, so no change there. I'll deal with such problems if and when they arise. I doubt I'm going to be doing 1:42s anyway, and probably no that fast for a whole session. I do want a car that's capable of it though. There are a whole bunch of people out there who regularly do track days and don't seem to be suffering much for it, at least at the track. Our big problem is the double duty with two of us driving.

A friend with a Ferrari (F430) who does a huge number of track days (15-20 a year) switched to plain old iron brake rotors.

there's a lot of factors that go into this...

http://locktonmotorsports.com/product/track-insurance/

this is probably worth it if you're gonna be driving a brand new $100k car on the track though. based on what you've said, i envy your financial ability to absorb the financial risk. i would also strongly consider putting in a roll cage.. there are other risks besides financial ones.. and maybe humbly suggest a "stepping stone" car, i.e., a used s2000, 350z, boxster, even m3. but I have no idea of your driving experience so it's hard for me to say.

Also, FWIW, it doesn't matter what the car is "based" on. The fastest time attack car in the world is still the CT9A Evo. These are more of tuner cars though, which doesn't really seem like your thing. the current 911 carrera s is hailed as the best driver's car ever, all about driving dynamics over pure power/speed, so..

As I said, I have my own ideas, I was wondering if anyone would come up with any ideas I hadn't thought of, no particularly interesting ideas popped up. My current short list with price (from a build on the manufacturer's website) and lap time:

Porsche Cayman S $80,515 1:41.3
Lotus Evora $84,135 1:42.5
Chevy Corvette Z51 LT1 $60,280 1:38.2

When I first did this exercise in 2011, I was heavily influenced by Motortrend's best driver's car and their comments about driving around Laguna Seca. Laguna is the track I'm most familiar with I've been there 13 times and have probably done over 600 laps by now. Back then I came to the conclusion of the Cayman R. The R seems to have been a last hurrah of the previous generation (like MINI makes GPs). The new generation Cayman S seems to be a bit faster. A friend with a Cayman also recommended the PASM (active suspension) as it gave you a cushy ride on the street, but could be turned hard for the track. The Cayman R only had hard mode.

I've never driven a Cayman, I have sat in one so I know I fit. I've driven a Boxster several times, around Laguna Seca with Skip Barber and an autocross at a Porsche event. I found the Boxster to be very pleasant to drive, the Cayman by all accounts is a Boxster with a top and even better.

If I were to get a Cayman, my biggest question would be PCCB (carbon ceramic brakes) or not. Its an $8,000 option and has mixed reviews as to its effectiveness for track use.

The Evora is a Lotus designed for larger Americans, so I actually fit in it. I got to take a test drive around Laguna Seca at one track day, the local dealer was showing off various high end cars, and borrowed a couple of Skip Barber's for the day. It was also very pleasant to drive, and after only 6 laps I was getting down to 1:56. I do worry about the reliability of a Lotus, compared to the ruthless German efficiency of a Porsche.

The Corvette makes the list even though its really not my style, as mentioned above. Putting a truck engine in a light car is not my idea of a sports car. However by all accounts Chevy have made a really well sorted chassis. I'm a bit shocked that Chevy could do such a good job. It makes the list by being an amazingly good value. If I'm spending that much I really should check out the competition.

If you go to $1000,000+ my list is:

Ferrari 458 $237,882 1:36.2
McLaren MP4-12C $246,600 1:34.5

(I had to go to http://www.edmunds.com to get those prices, the manufacturer's websites aren't that cooperative.)

The Ferrari is by all accounts a brilliant car, and who wouldn't want a Ferrari. (My wife it seems is dubious of the idea of a Ferrari.) It was Motortrend's best driver's car when I first did this exercise. I've never driven a 458, the only Ferrari I've driven was a 360 at Silverstone, it was pretty nice.

I've never driven a McLaren either, though I've seen quite a few of them out at the track. Their owners seem to like them a lot. The McLaren dealer is quite handy, I could drive by it on the way to work. Though by most accounts its missing some soul, despite being British its usually described as high tech and ruthlessly efficient. If I were going for a Ferrari, I really should check out the competition.

The Cayman certainly seems to get a few votes. That neatly validates my prejudices.

Mainly front wheel drive (MINIs), 27 track days and a couple of schools over the last five years. Enough experience to be in the advanced groups.Not from a performance standpoint, but this isn't a purely logical decision. If I'm spending that much on a car, I want to feel good about it, so my prejudices come into play.

^ truth.