North American Motoring - How To Audio/Navigation

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zach999 (Post 2453579)

I have the HIFI sound system and I did this mod. now I'm just wondering if any harm may come about due to leaving the F/R channels switched, I really dont want to have to switch them back as it was kind of a pita

Only consequences are as Robin stated.

I don't know if this is a big faux pas but I just did this to my car with a pair of needle nose pliers. Worked great, I'm sure there are possible pit falls to this but I haven't experienced any of them, worked great. Thanks for all the help in this thread guys

Hey, whatever works! I've futzed with connectors long enough to go for something that looks like a removal tool before I get out the needlenose...

The nice things is you only have to do this once!

Thank you so very much! I just did this mod on my Cooper and I'm loving the bass that it never had! (OMG finally some thumps LOL)

:thumbsup::lol::)

Quote:

Originally Posted by schatzy62 (Post 2448982)

A little about my background in audio electronics

I worked for the High End audio manufacturer Cello Ltd for 6 years during the late 80’s early 90’s.I started as a electronics quality control tech and one year later was promoted to the quality control managers job while he was move to another roll in the company. During those years wrote the standards and procedures by which all of the equipment was tested. Cello Ltd manufactured some of the most high end equipment mad at that time. The equipment was used in homes and studios such as Sterling Sound in NYC, Sony Recording Studios NYC and LA, and DMP (digital music productions) in Stamford CT and many others. Other interests have taken over my life since then but I still keep in touch with the industry and continue to dabble in speaker manufacturing and repair as a hobby.

So yes I have taken into account the two ohm load.

So on to the info at hand.

Test equipment: (this is what I can get my hands on currently)
Techtronix TDS 224 Digital O-Scope
Heath EUW-27 Signal Generator 20hz to 2Mhz
HP 3400A RMS Volt Meter (read in volts or DB)
Fluke 8050A True RMS Volt Meter (reads DB or Relative DB)
2 ohm 60 watt, non inductive, non capacitive, pure resistance load
3 ohm 60 watt, non inductive, non capacitive, pure resistance load
4 ohm 60 watt, non inductive, non capacitive, pure resistance load

Test procedure:
1. Remove panel over right rear speakers.

2. In place of rear right woofer place 3 ohm load. (I used this as the actually AC resistance of the woofer ranges from 2.1 ohms to a little over 4 ohms. DC Ohms reading is 2.23)

3. Set input signal to 20 hz and set input to Aux connector for .775v (1 DB on HP 3400A) (I used this setting to ensure that i did not overdrive the input)

4. Check output signal on scope and set volume control for a two volt RMS output. ( this gives it an output of 1.33 watts, low listening level in a car) (I started with 20 Hz due to the fact that I know there is a signal boost in the amp but was unsure how much so to be safe I set the output at 20 Hz instead of 1000 Hz so that I would just measure the drop in output as I went toward 1000 Hz.)
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...m/100_0711.JPG

I ran frequencies up to 1000 Hz and found a20 DB roll off. So I went to reset the power output to 5 watts. This is what I got at 1.58 watts at 20Hz for a signal

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...m/100_0712.JPG

I then continued to increase the volume and got to this at 2.48 watts output.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...m/100_0713.JPG

So I decided to do a test at 1000 hz and was not able to get more than 5 watts of power output before I started getting similarly distorted sine waves.

I ran thru a bunch of other tests including testing at X9931 with a 3 ohm load. I could get about 16 to 18 watts output from the head unit before distortion at frequencies from 20 hz to 20KHz.

So the car is going into the dealer on Sept 15 for a check up. We will then see what they have to say about this.

Well i brought this info in to the dealer today along with the car and my SA went and got the shop foreman. The shop foreman and i talked about the testing i have done and also went out and listened to the HiFi stereo system int eh car. Then we went and listened to another car with a HiFi System (not a clubman like mine) but there was a difference in the sound. The shop foreman at first did not hear it but after i played a specific track in both cars a few times and explained the difference to him he did understand and was able to hear it. Well at least they admit there is a problem. Good on point Number one.

So they took the car in and did some testing while i was walking around the City of Boston and when i arrived back around 3pm we had another conversation. They had found some low voltage faults in the main computer and had corrected those but that did not correct the problem (if the amp is not getting enough voltage then it can not produce it's expected output).

The jury is still out on the problem and they are keeping the car for a few days. They gave me a loaner with a Standard stereo and it sounds much better that the HiFi in my car or the other car with out the front-back swap done even.

So where we are at right now

1. they admit there is a problem.

2. they are working to fix it.

3. they did make a comment about not having all the proper test equipment for this kind of repair (it is not standard) and they may have to call someone in for HQ with some other test equipment. I offered mine as a matter of being nice.

4. i now have to wait to see what they say.

BTW the loaner is a base MC with NO upgrades what soever. At least it is still a MINI. And what do i want for a last minute loaner it was the only one they had left.

You've got an MC, might as well make good use of it. AUTOCROSS!!!

Thanks to K6, newt, and wedge for answering my other post and directing me here. I'll post follow up here to join the thread. I've got a new MCC with the standard stereo, and like all of you, I'd like better bass.

Here are the priorities that K6 recommended to me for my non-HIFI system:
(1) Do the channel swap
(2) Replace 6.5 inch door speakers
(3) Replace 6x9 rear speakers
(4) Add a subwoofer

Here are my further questions:

1. I noticed that one person in the thread did the channel swap using needle nose pliers. Can anyone else confirm that they have tried that successfully? 2. Can I easily switch the channels back if I don't like it?
3. Does the channel swap degrade the listening experience for rear seat passengers (clubman)
4. If I install a subwoofer such as BossAudio Boss600, where do I put it and how does it get connected?
5. If I am happy with the front speaker tone, why shouldn't I just replace the rear speakers and be done with it?

I am impressed with everyone's detective work on this. Would really like to hear feedback from Mini on if they agree it was a problem and if the swap is a reasonable fix from their perspective (let's see what happens in the 09's).

Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpwright (Post 2471051)

Thanks to K6, newt, and wedge for answering my other post and directing me here. I'll post follow up here to join the thread. I've got a new MCC with the standard stereo, and like all of you, I'd like better bass.

Here are the priorities that K6 recommended to me for my non-HIFI system:
(1) Do the channel swap
(2) Replace 6.5 inch door speakers
(3) Replace 6x9 rear speakers
(4) Add a subwoofer

Here are my further questions:

1. I noticed that one person in the thread did the channel swap using needle nose pliers. Can anyone else confirm that they have tried that successfully?
2. Can I easily switch the channels back if I don't like it?
3. Does the channel swap degrade the listening experience for rear seat passengers (clubman)
4. If I install a subwoofer such as BossAudio Boss600, where do I put it and how does it get connected?
5. If I am happy with the front speaker tone, why shouldn't I just replace the rear speakers and be done with it?

I am impressed with everyone's detective work on this. Would really like to hear feedback from Mini on if they agree it was a problem and if the swap is a reasonable fix from their perspective (let's see what happens in the 09's).

Thanks.

(1) Don't know on the needle nose pliers thing. I've swapped Molex pins using needle nose before, but it's far easier with a tool more designed for that purpose. I did a modified tool, and have used that and the BMW part to pop and swap piins.

(2) Once you've got the pin-popping technique down, swapping back is as easy as the original swap. And the swap thread has before-and-after color codes. If anything, the pins are easier to pop out the second time around.

(3) Can't say on a Clubman, but in my MCS, back seat audio is improved (so says my teenage daughter, who is the only one who rides in the back seat).

(4) Connecting a sub can be easy. The requirements for the bass600 are fairly simple. I ran a cable from the X9331 connector to the boot along the left side of the car. That goes to the high-level inputs on the bass600. I stole power for it from the aux power connector in the boot. I need to clean up the wiring, but it works a treat. I have it sitting up in the boot, and it works well with the lid (whatever you want to call the storage area cover) down.

(5) Whatever floats your boat. My reasons for replacing the front 6.5 inch speakers (I left the 4 inch ones alone): (a) the OEM speakers are poo (that's technical shorthand for "cost effective"); (b) the 6.5 OEM speakers are easy to replace; (c) the replaced speakers sound a whole lot better, particularly in their ability to reproduce midrange and highs. Particularly with the channel swap, replacing the 6x9 rear speakers is a big win in terms of low end response, but clear mids and highs don't hurt, either.

Consider the process an incremental one -- you stop when the cost of the next step doesn't feel worth it. You may not want a sub, depending on your listening. Or you may do the lot and decide that you need better, in which case I recommend the E55 AMG.

Don't know what Mini thinks of this. Don't care. When I bought the car I knew I would be replacing the speakers, and undoubtedly doing other things as well.

This is a community effort! Comments and questions welcome. Help, suggestions, and beer really welcome!

For those watching this thread about my HiFI amp. It has been at the dealer since monday and they ahve tested it and tested it and find that it is the same as another clubman with the HiFi system.

Though they do not have the same test equipment or the knowledge to test it as i have they have been very diligent in there attemts to find the problem.

Short of replacing the amp, possibly with another bad one, as the other one they tested had the same bad wave forms, they did do a software upgrade on the amp itself.

So out come at this point is, I will be picking up the car tomorrow and retesting it to see if anything has changed. if not there are some other tests i want to run that they have not been able to do and i did not test earlier.

I will let you know how it goes

Hope for the best, but at least you got them to agree there was something different.

Thanks so much for your effort Schatzy62! I have a clubman and am looking forward to the outcome.

UPDATE:

Well after five days at the dealer and me driving a bottom of the line loaner. I am not a happy camper.

This is a mixed review on the updates to my HIFI system. They did three things.

1. Updated Software in the "Amplifier". Yes i said "Amplifier. Iw as even showed the update ticket that shows and update for software in the amp.
2. Replaced a door panel because they said it was rattling.
3. Added felt tape to a couple of places to remove rattles.

Now here are the comments from me to those items.

On #2 and #3. There sere not rattles from panels before i brought it in. But now there are lots of rattles in the car that were not there before. This has really pissed me off.

On #1. The software update has made the system sound worse. I now have to play with the fadders, front to back and side to side. If set at zero all the sound comes from the Passenger front door.

After two days of testing. I have found that the problem shown in the pictures earlier in this thread of the bad looking wave forms has been eliminated. In other words the software update has corrected the distortion problem. In stead of distorting at around 2 watts it gets to five watts of output. an that is the max that will come out of the amp.

So if i turn the volume up all the way and put a 20 Hz tone in to the auxiliary input at 0db I get about 4.8 watts of power out. If i up that to 40hz @0db i get about 5.2 watts, 60HZ @ 0db = 5.3 watts. if i turn up the input to 1.5 db it causes the amp to start distorting just over 5.5 watts of power output.

The way it should work is to put in 0db and get to about 75% of the rate output for a specific channel this give you head room for the louder passages that will go over 0 db on a recording.

So as they seam to have fixed one thing with the upgrade other problems have sprung up.

I will be talking with the dealer today again about this problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by schatzy62 (Post 2478462)

So as they seam to have fixed one thing with the upgrade other problems have sprung up.

I will be talking with the dealer today again about this problem.

Herb Chambers: "Uh oh...here comes schatzy62 guys. Duck!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by eurotrash01 (Post 2478469)

Herb Chambers: "Uh oh...here comes schatzy62 guys. Duck!"

Oh it's really not that bad. The problem is that they have mechanics trying to fix a stereo system. They even admit that they do not have much in the way of knowledge on this stuff. I just hope that they get someone with knowledge form Mini USA or the design engineer involved so that we can get this straightened out with out to much delay.

The other problem i have is that the dealer is also 1-1/2 hours away, and it is not an easy drive.

I find this new information fascinating...

...in the most pathological way.

With a software-based (DSP?) amp, without the proper tools (software), we're barking at the moon. Not much chance of doing anything rational.

Not to piddle on others' parades, the one good thing to come out of this is I'm glad I didn't get the HiFi option!

The head unit is Alpine -- any chance we could get more info on that?

I am also happy I did not get the HIFI option. As long as I can get a good signal out of the head unit, I can take it from there. With Amps, sub, speaker upgrades, passive and active crossovers. I prefer to be in control of the audio as much as possible. I am not a fan of factory amps.

Yes getting the HiFi option was the worst thing I've done.

Luckily there is more than enough room for a Alpine PDX series amp on the drivers side rear of my clubman behind the side panel, and enough room on the passenger side for a Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.2 or a Alpine ImPrint processor.

At athat point i have the signals at teh amp connector so i can just splice there with out having to run new wires for everything. The only wires i will probalby have to run will be new power to the Amp and wires from the cross over to the tweeters in the pilars.

It is an awfully expensive wiring harness at $500.00 though.

The problem i am having is that the specs on the amp are 40Watts by 2 and 25 watts x 6 andthere is not a single channel that i can get more than 5 watts out of. I also can not get close to the 104 db sound pressure level that the spec says can be reached at 50HZ and above.

BTW the speakers for the HiFi are supposed to be by harman group. but at least one of mine said Philips.

Another thing i noticed in the testing i did this weekend was that the midrange driver (100mm/4") gets full range music from the amp so it is trying to drive 20 Hz and make s all kinds of bad noises when it does.

If you are going to repeat your measurements, it would be interesting to check the 12VDC supply voltage and the ground right at the amp when it's driving the speakers at max volume. This would indicate if the problem is related to poor grounding or a bad 12V supply cable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by howie289 (Post 2478818)

Car running, 14.3 VDC at positive and the ground is the case and is bolted to the body of the car.

I did not check the ground all the way back to the battery but it will be of no consequence.

No drop in voltage from no output to full output. It is just that the amp is not putting out. The rear channels that drive the 6x9's are supposed to be 40 watts and get no where near that. it only gets to just over 5 watts of total output.

Actual current draw by the amp at full output was only 2.3 amps at 60HZ all channels driven

And with Watts = Volts X Amps we could only get a max output of Watts = 14.3 x 2.3 or 32.8 watts. With 8 channels driven that gives us about 4.11 watts a channel if it is 100% efficient but alas it is not.

If you don't mind me asking how the heck did a "software" update of the amp (not the headunit) result in all the sound coming via passenger door speakers? Call me skeptical but I can't see that cheapo amp having any software in it at all. Maybe some basic screw things for volume/power adjustment but software? Maybe they did the headunit and called it the amp. In reading this interesting/over my head thread I get the impression that Schatzy hates the sound, has tagged the amp as the culprit, and what he needs is a better amp and maybe a sound processor too. The Mini people do mechanics and replace units. I'd leave them out of the loop!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigNewt (Post 2479244)

On these cars as in all BMW made cars the amp has software for DSP, Speed volume, frequency response etc. These amps are part of the computer system in the Mini and all BMW's

The software update changed the way the does its frequency response curves for each channel and it output level.

The problem is now that the sound has always been bad but no worse. So either they get it fixed or i get my money ($500) back for a failed sound system. I spent the money in good faith that like on my BMW that it would actually be better than the standard system. Well I was WRONG. I drove a basic Mini with the standard system and it actually sounded better. Also at this point i can prove that the amp is not meeting the specs that Mini has set for it. So get it to meet the spec and i can not complain but if they can not get it to meet the specs they claim for it then give me my money back.
I even have the spec page out of the mini Official Specifications book that says what it is to be.

Hello all! First Post!

Anyways, I'm curious which side of the plug next to the drivers hood release is the closest to the car stereo on the non hifi system. I would like to attach a sub to the already existing stereo setup (without swapping the wires front to rear).

Is it the male side of the plug or the female? The reason I want to do it this way is if in the future I decide to do the front to rear wire swap I wouldn't have to rewire my sub connections.

Does that make any sense?

Thanks in advance!

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatBastard (Post 2485263)

Hey there--

Looking at the WDS site for the wiring diagram showing the x9331 connector, the female pins are the radio side, and the male pins are the speaker side.

The male pins are easier to pop out. I popped out the male pins for the swap, and connected my sub to pins 3,4,5,6 of the connector (the male pins in these positions).

Female pins 3,4,5,6 are the front channels from the radio. Doing the swap of the male pins routes the front signals to the rear speakers, and the rear signals to the front speakers. Picking off the signals on pins 3,4,5,6 takes these full bandwidth (or as full as we're going to get) signals and routes those to the sub, back in the boot.

As described earlier, since I had the pins out, I soldered to the ends of the male pins, making a secure mechanical connection before soldering. Looks pretty clean, and works well.

If you want to do it so you can do the swap in the future (I'd do it now, even before trying a sub, it's worth the effort), then you'd want to tap the female ends.

I'll reiterate my priority list:

Do the channel swap
Swap out the 6.5 inch speakers
Swap out the 6x9 speakers
Add a sub

Whatever you do, have fun!

Thanks Bob!

I already have the sub, it's a 8" SAS Bazooka Tube that I had in my previous 97 AWD Talon, and I was impressed with it at that time. I'm sort of person that if the fader didn't work properly it would annoy me to no end. I'm going to put the sub in, replace the fronts with some decent/better speakers, and see how I like it from there.

I'm going to look into what MBQuart has for a decent replacement in the front, as I've loved them in the past. I'll possibly look for a 6.5",4",tweeter combo and play with placement of the tweeter on the dash up by the windshield. We'll see what the future brings!