Add a set of autoX/track pads; at least a set of Hawk Plus up front. The grip is a lot better with track pads than the stock pads and you won't have to slam the brakes hard to slow down for that next turn or worse yet have your brakes fad away (been there, not pretty). The difference is well worth the expense and it only takes an extra 10 min a wheel to change them out when you are change wheels anyway, if you don't want to run them on the street.

Have fun

 

Yes, Eddie, that was my experience just like I said it was. Note also that I said what works for an S doesn't necessarily work for a base Cooper. It stands to reason that the opposite is also true.

 

Okay, back to the 2013 AutoX build and/or 2012 retrofit in my case…

Most seem to agree that the DTC and at least Sport Suspension (SS) are must haves at original order (comfort equip to taste). I lean to paying the extra $1,000 over the SS for the JCW Red Spring Suspension option to get the stiffer front and rear anti-sway bars, ½” lower and stiffer balanced springs with better tuned shocks right from the start (you can always change the shocks out if you must, but you will have the Red springs and larger sway bars to start with). That way you only have to add light rims and R-Comp tires, a free flowing air cleaner and possibly something like the Hawk HP Plus brake pads (I noted the Carbotech AX6 pads specifically state NOT to use them with R-Comp tires).

After the order and/or 2012 retro-fit add-ons and equipment look like this for me right now:

- Bell Sport Mag open face helmet (seems like a good choice)
- Kosei KR4 16x6.5 ET45 4-100 wheels weighing in at 12.8lbs.
- Kumho Ecsta V710 215/40R16 tires weighing in at 18lbs. (51 max. psi/22.6” dia.)
- Hotchkis Competition light weight hollow rear anti-sway bar #22810R (+226%, 294% & 383%)
- K&N air cleaner
- Hawk HP Plus brake pads (still my daily driver)
- Muffler delete only straight pipe (homemade)

That puts me at about $2,200 initial investment to get out there and have some fun with my Justa H-Stock. Of course you can go SSR Type-C ET42 15x5.5 at only 9.6lbs. with 19lb. Hoho’s for another grand, but for the beginner I’d rather save the grand while gaining experience the first year. Plus, if you want to upgrade to a new JCW Hardtop model down the road you already have your qualifying light weight wheels.

NOTE: SSR Type-F are available in 16x6.5 ET45 4-100 weighing in at 11.2lbs. for a cool $445 retail (~$375 each shopped) if you must cut that extra 1.6lbs. off a 16” if you have a Cooper S. That’s about 2.5 times the price of the KR4’s. It’s always nice to have a big wallet.

Other things on the future wish list are (another ~$2,200+):

- Schroth Quickfit mini racing harness for R56
- Full CatBack custom or out-of-the-box exhaust system
- Koni yellow adjustable sport shocks (2012 retro-fit or if no JCW ordered originally)
- JCW Red springs (2012 retro-fit or if no JCW ordered originally)
- DTC eLSD option upgrade (2012 retro-fit)

That’s where I am currently. Feel free to slice and dice as you see fit. Experienced players advice is well heeded by this novice.

One quick Cooper S stock class question (even though this is a H-Stock thread):

Are all JCW option fair game for the Cooper S stock class? It looks like JCW now comes with the JCW tune and 208hp.


Nicely done video from one of the players last weekend at El Toro (like the way this software shows the track):

 

Your list looks OK, except:

Put the QuickFit harness 2nd on the list right after the brake pads, which should be number 1. The helmet should be number 3 on the list as you can usually get a loaner. All of the rest from there is gravey.

You missed something about the JCW suspension. That suspension is not a $1000 over the sports suspension; it is about $2500 over the sports suspension. The option listed on the MINIUSA web page is only for the parts ($1500) and it is about $1500 more to have it installed; about $3k total. While I am a HUGE fan of the sports suspension, that is only if you are not planning to MOD the whole suspension. If you are really set with going for the stiffer shocks and springs of the JCW setup and are going to replace the rear sway bar anyway, then buy the MINI with the stock suspension, then buy the H-sport rear sway bar, Koni Yellows, a set of TSW spring (modest drop and linear rate - important) and the JCW front sway bar and have it all installed for the same price or less. If you do most of the work yourself, it will be even less. Yes this will kick you out of the stock class, but it is cheaper and will be more fun and fun-and-cheap is the best part of autoX.

Also, if you are getting a MC, not the S, get the optional sports seats. They have more support than the stock seats. Between these and the harness you be able to retain control of the car and not have to fight with staying in the seat.

But I must say, welcome to the insanity...

 

BTW-there is nothing on the Carbotech web page about not using the AX6 pads with R-comps. They say don't use them for racing. They mean don't use them on a race track; even for a HPDE. But the are fine for autoX with any tire.

 

i think the ediff is the way to go as well as the JCW package (body, suspension and the big deal...the 17x7 wheels). This allows the 225/40-17 A6s as well as the bigger front bar, stiffer springs, good shocks and a hotchkis rear bar.

I think that would be good.

 

Unfortunately H-Stock doesn't allow 17x7 wheels, only 15x5.5 or 16x6.5 with stock offsets (+/- a little).

It looks like I will be going the "budget" route to start. Just picked up a set of 15x5.5 OEM "Hollies" for C-note. I'm actually thinking about training on a set of 205/50ZR15 or 225/45ZR15 street legal tires, so I can put them on at home and drive to the local events. I know I won't be competitive with them, but some say it's good to learn on non-R-Comp's.

What is the best street legal 15" tire to train on?

 

Actually...as part of the JCW package...they do. It's a factory installed body kit, 17x7 wheels, interior trim pieces, the JCW suspension and some other fluffy crap. If it's installed at port or the factory it's legal.

That's why the suspension is legal as a stand alone option. Trust me I am very familiar with the rules

HOWEVER...Jim Feinberg has been doing A-ok on the 15s lol...but I still haven't seen anyone do the 17s via the JCW route. The simple way to test is do a back to back test of the 225/45-15 A6s on the 15x5.5s and the 225/40-17s on the 17x7s.

 

PS - if someone wants a deal on a set of the old batch of SSC Comps that are 11lbs let me know. A LOT cheaper than the type F ones are now

 

Miata Racer - This newbie stands H-Stock corrected (I guess ).

Anyone think the Falken Azenis RT-625K 205/50R15 would be a good cheap ($104ea) street legal training tire? Would it get me through a season while learning?

 

The Ecsta XS (eXtreme Street) (KU36) is Kumho’s Extreme Performance tire - $97 ea on tirerack. I have seen these used and seemed to be liked.

As for wheel size, the added weight of the 17" on a low hp car will be noticeable in the form of slower acceleration which will likely be hard to make up by the slightly better handling of the larger wheel. Also, the larger wheel means more unsprung weight which will be harder for the shocks to control on a rough course meaning that there is a greater chance to lose traction over any bumps.

Most people go with the larger wheels to go over larger brakes. The JCW comes with huge brakes and only 17" (maybe a very few 16") will fit over them. These brakes are great for the track but are likely overkill for autoX in a MC. Again, I vote for the Sports suspension as a really good, inexpensive starting point for a beginner. The only thing that you really miss with that compared to the JCW is the lower springs. It is a hair softer but that will likely not be noticed by a beginner.

 

Thanks, I'll take a research look at those.

How about the Hankook Ventus R-S3 225/45ZR15? Anyone run these squeezed onto a 5.5" rim?

Alos, is it worthwhile to run 5mm spacers on the R81 Imola's up front to max out the track width?

 

The Hankooks would have been my first choice but they require a 7" wide rim. But if someone has made them work, that would be nice to hear.

As for the spacers-absolutely! I would also try both front and rear to see which combination works best.

 

I would stay away from the Hankooks. Not because they are not a great tire (they are) but because the minimum treadwear for RTF class is going from 140 to 180 next season, which will make them (and the Toyo R1R) illegal for RTF.

That leaves you with the Dunlop Star Spec, Kumho XS, and Yoko AD-08. All are great choices if you want to go with the best available street tires. I don't see many use the Falken 615K, so I can't say anything about them. I use the Star Spec myself, and like them. They are LOUD day to day, but sticky, inexpensive, and consistent in all conditions.

If you haven't done much autocross, I'd start with a lower grip tire. Sticky ones have a tendency to hide driving mistakes. The best way to learn will be the OEM tires, ride alongs with experienced racers, and having racers ride with you and critique your driving.

It usually takes most people about two full seasons to get to the "competent" level. Once you get there, then start putting money where it's important. I've seen FAR too many people jump in to the sport way to fast, burn out immediately, and then disappear forever. Ease in.

 

So 'slow is fast' in more ways than one :-)

 

While 225/45/15 Hoosiers can be made to work on a 15X5.5" wheel (partly due to very stiff side-walls), a street tire that wide may be too wide to work well. The Kumho Star Spec comes in sizes 195/55/15 (rim range = 5.5-7", molded to 6"), and 205/50/15 (rim range = 5.5-7.5"; molded to 6.5"). The narrower tire might actually be quicker on such a narrow rim, as it's a better fit, so may actually provide a wider lateral contact patch.

Burglar's post #64 above serves as a reminder that a novice may not initially be as quick in a fully optimized autocross car as more experienced drivers are in less optimized cars.

 

+1 You can learn so much faster on street tires, even tires with treadwear numbers in the 180 - 200 range, than you can on R-comps. The R-comps will cover up bad habits and slow down the learning process.

I have been using the Falken Azenis RT-615 and RT-615K tires and find I really like them. The newer "K" tire is much stickier than the previous model. They do offer a 205/50ZR15 tire that can be squeezed onto a 5.5" rim. They also are great in the rain. I put them on the day before and drive them to the event. So far I have gotten three years out of them, about 50 days of auto-x fun. There isn't much left at this point.

The wear has been very uniform thanks to rotation after each event and constant tire pressure monitoring and surface temperature monitoring. These are great for local events and for HPDE track events.

 

Thanks a milliion for all your wonderful input!

 

Late to the party here but a few comments:

We played around with the DTC at the beginning of the year and it is only of debatable usefulness on a very smooth lot (meadowlands) with a very fast course (divisionals). If you are too aggressive on the throttle it will either cut throttle or grab both sides' brakes in quick succession and completely sink your run. It may help get the power down out of corners, but with that aggressive brake/cut looming over your head its difficult to fully exploit. It might help at Lincoln but I think we are going to run with it off like we have been most of the season.

I'm hoping to get a back to back test in on the 17s after nationals (on the '12+ Justas they appear in the regular option area thanks to the "mini yours" packages), but several of the top drivers in Philly are 100% sure they are going to be too tall and ruin the gearing vs a 16" or 15" car.

Shod up a set of star specs to start (I think they have a 195/50/15?). They are a solid tire and you'll the right way to do things, which might not be the case on a lesser tire with a softer sidewall.

The national champ was on 15s last year, but I believe the favorite this year is still on the 16s. The difference is probably minimal.

 

From the Carbo-tech site:

"Carbotech™ AX6™ (1106™)
The AX6™ takes the place of the Panther Plus™ compound that was so successful. AX6™ was specifically engineered for Autocross applications. A high torque brake compound delivering reliable and consistent performance over a very wide operating temperature range (150°F to 1250°F +). Advanced compound matrix provides an excellent initial “bite”, high coefficient of friction, and very progressive brake modulation and release characteristics. AX6™ offers high fade resistance, rotor friendliness at all temperatures, excellent cold stopping power, and non corrosive dust. As a result, AX6™ is an excellent choice for Autocross & novice track day drivers and beginner high performance driver education (HPDE) drivers on street driven cars using street tires eliminating the need to change brake pads at the track. AX6™ has gained tremendous popularity with SCCA Prosolo/Solo2 competitors for its fantastic bite, release & modulation. Many drivers use the AX6™ for street driving as well, even though Carbotech doesn’t recommend street driving with AX6™ due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise. AX6™ is NOT a race compound, and should not be used as such. AX6™ shouldn’t be used by any intermediate or advanced track day drivers, and should not be used with “R” compound tires (racing tires). Cars in excess of 300hp and/or 3,000lbs should not use AX6™ for any track use."

That's what I was referring to. I'll probably go to the Hawk HP Plus pad's because they will be used for street mostly and some weekend fun.

 

That is referring to out on the track, they are not referring to autocross. Notice that they say:
"As a result, AX6™ is an excellent choice for Autocross..."

There is no qualifier about tire selection with that statement, unlike the follow on statement where they say:
"...& novice track day drivers and beginner high performance driver education (HPDE) drivers on street driven cars using street tires eliminating the need to change brake pads at the track."

They don't want you driving on the track with them with R-comps as they will get overheated. They are not going to get overheated doing autocross. Quite the opposite, a track pad may not get enough heat during an autoX run to be effective.

However, you may want to contact them or someone like Way.

 

I understand they are great for Autocross "on street tires" as stated, but disagree with your interpretation that includes R-comp's based on the paragraphs "...and should not be used with “R” compound tires (racing tires)." I could be interpretting their statements incorrectly. I also would recommend contacting them if one plans to use these pads with R-comps.

Doesn't matter to me as I will be giving the Hawk's a try for a track and street combo pad.

 

Howdy folks - just a note that I thank you for this thread. It helped me sort out the build on an H Stock car, and hopefully not make any silly mistakes.

The recipe (my doing) was just a stripped Cooper with DTC and sport suspension.

That assumes I do the wheels (aftermarket 16x6.5) and rear bar and shocks.

So anyway - thanks for sharing.

Cheers,

Charlie

 

17x7 OZs are 14lbs vs the 16x6.5 SSRs I have now at 11lbs and the TRM wheels at 14.4lbs. Or the Kosei K4 @ 12.8lbs.

So nobody will notice 1lb of weight...next are tires...225/40-17s are 23.8" vs 22.8 for the 205 16s...so there is a small diameter difference...but on nationals courses where the speeds are a bit higher the taller 2nd gear and increased grip IMO would outperform the 16".

Nobody thought the 15 could win and Jim won in 2011...so until someone tries them we won't know.

So the weight argument is out...the 17" tire weighs 1lb more than the 16". All that is worth at most a few hundredths on an autocross course. So diameter is the only question...and I'll say this...on the 23" tall tires I was on the rev limiter a LOT on most courses...so I'd welcome a few more MPH.


That's my reasoning.


On to tires...the XS is a good budget minded tire. Great for practice and regional events...not so much for national ST or RT competition. for RT I'd look into something like the 205 star specs on 16x6.5 wheels as the easy button


As for brake pads...I've always run OEM pads on the mini and never had an issue. I have yet to run hawks on any car that didn't **** me off. They are noisy, dusty and very harsh on wheel finishes. I'd get teh Carbotech AX6 over the hawks any day. The HPS and HP+ are both bad for any car that gets street use. Go oem.

 

My comment about the wheel size is a generalized statement. As wheel weight goes up acceleration will go down. There is a great Car and Driver test from about a year ago that shows this very well. In fact a 10# decrease in wheel weight is worth about 6 hp. However, that is from a one for one comparison. If you throw in other factors then you can change the outcome. For example if you run up against the rev limiter on a shorter tire it is going to slow you down and the taller and heavier tire/wheel may offset that to the point that one is faster with those in spite of the added weight. But the fact remains, more weight means you will go slower. However, as you noted there are a lot of other factors that could offset the weight advantage of going to a small diameter and light wheel/tire combination. Your example is very good and needs to be factored in by any serious racer.

I basically agree on the brake pads except for the use of the street pads. For me, they take too much effort to use and modulate which disrupts my concentration. The Hawk + pad on the track were not linear. I have not tried them for autoX, but, given what you said, I will probably stick with the Carbotech XP10s that I use on the track. Very linear and very little thought goes into using them. I would like to try the AX6 as they take less heat to be effective, but can't justify the added expense for the extra pads.

I like the Z1s and they are really good, but if I was going for the gold, I would get a set of Yokohama AD08s. Just a difference in opinion to think about in this maze of parts, wheels and tires.