MINI GP2 Track Build for Watkins Glen
#76
08-03-2018, 08:04 AM
Drew,
Do you know what size front sway bar the GP came with?
OK, you asked for it. I am not a fan of just a big RSB. It throws the balance of the car of off. MINIs really like trailbraking, especially T1 at WGI; I am told I am getting close to the apex with my trailbraking on that corner. Trailbraking adds a lot of grip to the front of the MINI and takes grip away from the rear of the car. Adding a big RSB, without the balance of a larger front bar, further removes grip from the rear. That loss of grip in the rear can be harmful. Typically, the way to counter act this is to get on the gas before the apex, which adds a bit of understeer and is not the fastest way around the track. Randy Pbost has written a lot about this. So, my suggestion is to start at the lowest setting and be really careful with trailbraking and run the rear shocks a bit on the softer side. I have seen what the WGI guardrails do to cars that have too much oversteer built into them, including video of an instructor who went into oversteer situation in T3 (the esses) at about 105 in his BMW. I have also hit antifreeze in this turn. This is why I run the big FSB with the RSB; I didn’t spin the car when that happened. I have also seen this combination in the ST class MINIs in the IMSA races.
Do you know what size front sway bar the GP came with?
OK, you asked for it. I am not a fan of just a big RSB. It throws the balance of the car of off. MINIs really like trailbraking, especially T1 at WGI; I am told I am getting close to the apex with my trailbraking on that corner. Trailbraking adds a lot of grip to the front of the MINI and takes grip away from the rear of the car. Adding a big RSB, without the balance of a larger front bar, further removes grip from the rear. That loss of grip in the rear can be harmful. Typically, the way to counter act this is to get on the gas before the apex, which adds a bit of understeer and is not the fastest way around the track. Randy Pbost has written a lot about this. So, my suggestion is to start at the lowest setting and be really careful with trailbraking and run the rear shocks a bit on the softer side. I have seen what the WGI guardrails do to cars that have too much oversteer built into them, including video of an instructor who went into oversteer situation in T3 (the esses) at about 105 in his BMW. I have also hit antifreeze in this turn. This is why I run the big FSB with the RSB; I didn’t spin the car when that happened. I have also seen this combination in the ST class MINIs in the IMSA races.
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Drewalbiston (08-03-2018)
#77
08-03-2018, 08:10 AM
Drew,
Do you know what size front sway bar the GP came with?
OK, you asked for it. I am not a fan of just a big RSB. It throws the balance of the car of off. MINIs really like trailbraking, especially T1 at WGI; I am told I am getting close to the apex with my trailbraking on that corner. Trailbraking adds a lot of grip to the front of the MINI and takes grip away from the rear of the car. Adding a big RSB, without the balance of a larger front bar, further removes grip from the rear. That loss of grip in the rear can be harmful. Typically, the way to counter act this is to get on the gas before the apex, which adds a bit of understeer and is not the fastest way around the track. Randy Pbost has written a lot about this. So, my suggestion is to start at the lowest setting and be really careful with trailbraking and run the rear shocks a bit on the softer side. I have seen what the WGI guardrails do to cars that have too much oversteer built into them, including video of an instructor who went into oversteer situation in T3 (the esses) at about 105 in his BMW. I have also hit antifreeze in this turn. This is why I run the big FSB with the RSB; I didn’t spin the car when that happened. I have also seen this combination in the ST class MINIs in the IMSA races.
Do you know what size front sway bar the GP came with?
OK, you asked for it. I am not a fan of just a big RSB. It throws the balance of the car of off. MINIs really like trailbraking, especially T1 at WGI; I am told I am getting close to the apex with my trailbraking on that corner. Trailbraking adds a lot of grip to the front of the MINI and takes grip away from the rear of the car. Adding a big RSB, without the balance of a larger front bar, further removes grip from the rear. That loss of grip in the rear can be harmful. Typically, the way to counter act this is to get on the gas before the apex, which adds a bit of understeer and is not the fastest way around the track. Randy Pbost has written a lot about this. So, my suggestion is to start at the lowest setting and be really careful with trailbraking and run the rear shocks a bit on the softer side. I have seen what the WGI guardrails do to cars that have too much oversteer built into them, including video of an instructor who went into oversteer situation in T3 (the esses) at about 105 in his BMW. I have also hit antifreeze in this turn. This is why I run the big FSB with the RSB; I didn’t spin the car when that happened. I have also seen this combination in the ST class MINIs in the IMSA races.
Thank you for that though.
Drew
#78
08-03-2018, 08:11 AM
2nd Gear
Drew,
Do you know what size front sway bar the GP came with?
OK, you asked for it. I am not a fan of just a big RSB. It throws the balance of the car of off. MINIs really like trailbraking, especially T1 at WGI; I am told I am getting close to the apex with my trailbraking on that corner. Trailbraking adds a lot of grip to the front of the MINI and takes grip away from the rear of the car. Adding a big RSB, without the balance of a larger front bar, further removes grip from the rear. That loss of grip in the rear can be harmful. Typically, the way to counter act this is to get on the gas before the apex, which adds a bit of understeer and is not the fastest way around the track. Randy Pbost has written a lot about this. So, my suggestion is to start at the lowest setting and be really careful with trailbraking and run the rear shocks a bit on the softer side. I have seen what the WGI guardrails do to cars that have too much oversteer built into them, including video of an instructor who went into oversteer situation in T3 (the esses) at about 105 in his BMW. I have also hit antifreeze in this turn. This is why I run the big FSB with the RSB; I didn’t spin the car when that happened. I have also seen this combination in the ST class MINIs in the IMSA races.
Do you know what size front sway bar the GP came with?
OK, you asked for it. I am not a fan of just a big RSB. It throws the balance of the car of off. MINIs really like trailbraking, especially T1 at WGI; I am told I am getting close to the apex with my trailbraking on that corner. Trailbraking adds a lot of grip to the front of the MINI and takes grip away from the rear of the car. Adding a big RSB, without the balance of a larger front bar, further removes grip from the rear. That loss of grip in the rear can be harmful. Typically, the way to counter act this is to get on the gas before the apex, which adds a bit of understeer and is not the fastest way around the track. Randy Pbost has written a lot about this. So, my suggestion is to start at the lowest setting and be really careful with trailbraking and run the rear shocks a bit on the softer side. I have seen what the WGI guardrails do to cars that have too much oversteer built into them, including video of an instructor who went into oversteer situation in T3 (the esses) at about 105 in his BMW. I have also hit antifreeze in this turn. This is why I run the big FSB with the RSB; I didn’t spin the car when that happened. I have also seen this combination in the ST class MINIs in the IMSA races.
The following users liked this post:
Drewalbiston (08-03-2018)
#79
08-03-2018, 08:52 AM
#80
08-03-2018, 12:23 PM
UPGRADE #7, Hotchkis Sport 22mm Competition Sway Bar.
My seventh mod for the car is the 22MM Hotchkis Sport comp sway bar. I originally ordered the 22MM sway from Alta to match my rear controls and end links. The part though was on back ordered, so Way over at Way Motor Works suggested I get the H-Sport Comp bar for my car instead. $200 dollars in overnight shipping the part was here.
The Mini GP comes with a 19MM sway bar originally. I think the 22MM is going to be a huge increase in the car's capabilities. Especially in corner entry in the exit. The GP though has a really good balance of the rear in a corner. With threshold braking, you can rotate the car just as you would like. Now I believe the It'll be that much better. I am going to set it to the medium setting and see how it goes. If it feels too soft or too tight, I may change it. I know on my second day I have a 45-minute enduro so I will be experimenting with the rear from racing lines to braking points.
The H-Comp bar is a hollow bar unlike most that are solid. From what Way says this bar almost saves 8lbs pound over a solid bar. This bar weighs 5.5lbs. '
My seventh mod for the car is the 22MM Hotchkis Sport comp sway bar. I originally ordered the 22MM sway from Alta to match my rear controls and end links. The part though was on back ordered, so Way over at Way Motor Works suggested I get the H-Sport Comp bar for my car instead. $200 dollars in overnight shipping the part was here.
The Mini GP comes with a 19MM sway bar originally. I think the 22MM is going to be a huge increase in the car's capabilities. Especially in corner entry in the exit. The GP though has a really good balance of the rear in a corner. With threshold braking, you can rotate the car just as you would like. Now I believe the It'll be that much better. I am going to set it to the medium setting and see how it goes. If it feels too soft or too tight, I may change it. I know on my second day I have a 45-minute enduro so I will be experimenting with the rear from racing lines to braking points.
The H-Comp bar is a hollow bar unlike most that are solid. From what Way says this bar almost saves 8lbs pound over a solid bar. This bar weighs 5.5lbs. '
And the Hsport Comp rear sway bar is 25.5mm hollow which is the same stiffness as a solid 22mm rear sway bar just without the extra weight and much higher quality bushings and material.
The average solid 22mm rear sway bar is 13-14lbs and the Hsport comp bar is 5.5lbs so a big savings. Also our WMW Hsport comp bar is grey powdercoat to match the GP
https://www.waymotorworks.com/wmw-rear-sway-bar.html
It's the ideal bar for all Gen1 and Gen 2 Cooper S. I tell everyone to start with it on the middle setting and go stiffer if they want, but 99% of people just love it on the middle and never change.
#81
08-04-2018, 02:55 AM
Drew,
Do you know what size front sway bar the GP came with?
OK, you asked for it. I am not a fan of just a big RSB. It throws the balance of the car of off. MINIs really like trailbraking, especially T1 at WGI; I am told I am getting close to the apex with my trailbraking on that corner. Trailbraking adds a lot of grip to the front of the MINI and takes grip away from the rear of the car. Adding a big RSB, without the balance of a larger front bar, further removes grip from the rear. That loss of grip in the rear can be harmful. Typically, the way to counter act this is to get on the gas before the apex, which adds a bit of understeer and is not the fastest way around the track. Randy Pbost has written a lot about this. So, my suggestion is to start at the lowest setting and be really careful with trailbraking and run the rear shocks a bit on the softer side. I have seen what the WGI guardrails do to cars that have too much oversteer built into them, including video of an instructor who went into oversteer situation in T3 (the esses) at about 105 in his BMW. I have also hit antifreeze in this turn. This is why I run the big FSB with the RSB; I didn’t spin the car when that happened. I have also seen this combination in the ST class MINIs in the IMSA races.
Do you know what size front sway bar the GP came with?
OK, you asked for it. I am not a fan of just a big RSB. It throws the balance of the car of off. MINIs really like trailbraking, especially T1 at WGI; I am told I am getting close to the apex with my trailbraking on that corner. Trailbraking adds a lot of grip to the front of the MINI and takes grip away from the rear of the car. Adding a big RSB, without the balance of a larger front bar, further removes grip from the rear. That loss of grip in the rear can be harmful. Typically, the way to counter act this is to get on the gas before the apex, which adds a bit of understeer and is not the fastest way around the track. Randy Pbost has written a lot about this. So, my suggestion is to start at the lowest setting and be really careful with trailbraking and run the rear shocks a bit on the softer side. I have seen what the WGI guardrails do to cars that have too much oversteer built into them, including video of an instructor who went into oversteer situation in T3 (the esses) at about 105 in his BMW. I have also hit antifreeze in this turn. This is why I run the big FSB with the RSB; I didn’t spin the car when that happened. I have also seen this combination in the ST class MINIs in the IMSA races.
FWD cars tend to have inherent understeer problems. The common solution to this is to do something that loosens the rear end and induces lift off oversteer. This makes the car "feel" better and faster. In fact what has happened is you have decreased the grip at the rear end. The best way to fix understeer is to actually fix the front end of the car, give the front wheels more grip and stability. This will actually make the car faster.To the OP, you actually have done a lot of the right things to improve the front end, better shocks, appropriate alignment adjustments, bushings etc. Other things available to improve the front end grip include appropriate ride height front to rear (rake), tire pressures front vs rear, spring rates and damping adjustment both overall and front rear balance.
#82
08-06-2018, 04:54 AM
I too stiffen the front, I do not like big swaybars because of FIA curbing so I do it with more spring. I stiffen the back too though with an adjustable bar and stiffer springs, I ended up with 8kg/mm front and 9kg/mm in the rear on my track car. It'll lift oversteer but it's very progressive and easy to work with and I can take some out by softening the rear bar. Without stiffening the front the mcpherson sucks design loses too much camber
#83
08-06-2018, 06:51 AM
When I watch the IMSA races they talk about different setups for different tracks and how, not having past history for a particular track, they experience difficulties in coming up with a fast setup. I didn’t think much about that until I put really good shocks into my car. It was then I really noticed the impact that really good equipment has on the feel of the car. I found tha the Bilstein B8s are really good for WGI. However, I found that they are a bit soft for LRP. If I had adjustable shocks I would start my setup for WGI a bit on the softer side overall and see how that goes. One reason I bought non-adjustable shocks was to not have to deal with the combinations and permutations that come along with adjustable shocks, until I had more experience with the car. It appears that now I have the experience I need to make good use of adjustable shocks; maybe it is time for another mod.... 
#84
08-06-2018, 08:02 AM
#85
08-06-2018, 09:26 AM
Oh, way to many options for me...
The Ohlins are nice as they adjust both jounce and rebound, together, with the one **** (if I remember correctly), which removes an option for me. At this point, that is infinitely more adjustment than I have now... Works for me for what I do.
Hmmmm, do I see a set of ASTs in your future, MrBlah? It’s only money...
The Ohlins are nice as they adjust both jounce and rebound, together, with the one **** (if I remember correctly), which removes an option for me. At this point, that is infinitely more adjustment than I have now...
Works for me for what I do.Hmmmm, do I see a set of ASTs in your future, MrBlah? It’s only money...
#86
08-06-2018, 10:32 AM
If we are spending other people's money how about some lighter wheels?perhaps with a mixed et for extra track width, it will help suspension with reduced weight and front rear balance as well
sorry for off topic, but could be a good investment if your car will continue to do lots of street duties as well.
i just purchased some OZ ultraleggera, they are light and clear the calipers
Last edited by blue al; 08-06-2018 at 10:38 AM. Reason: 17" et37. 7.6kg each
#88
08-06-2018, 11:22 AM
Thank you Eddie.
I will be getting the JCW Euro Recaros this winter. Probably going to have to get them custom stitched to say JCW, but oh well. Also, I will be getting a half cage for it this winter too. I know safety should be first. Just as you know you are talking around 7k-8k for seats, cage, and harness plus the labor too.
For the Scan gauge, I am going to order that today. Good to have it in the car. I think it is crazy these cars never came with any gauges.
Thank you.
I will be getting the JCW Euro Recaros this winter. Probably going to have to get them custom stitched to say JCW, but oh well. Also, I will be getting a half cage for it this winter too. I know safety should be first. Just as you know you are talking around 7k-8k for seats, cage, and harness plus the labor too.
For the Scan gauge, I am going to order that today. Good to have it in the car. I think it is crazy these cars never came with any gauges.
Thank you.
watch out with the recaros, you will need 5 or 6 point harnesses, most groups ban 4 point now, I'm not sure those factory seats have a pass through. I went with sparcos on sliders and a half cage, and 6 point harnesses and it was less than 2000 for everything. The only thing I got used were the seats and harnesses, expired is fine for HPDE with every group except porsche last time I checked, expired seats are always ok with a extra brace even for wheel to wheel.
I got quotes on custom weld in half cages and they were 900-1500 installed, I went with a hard dog bolt in.
I got quotes on custom weld in half cages and they were 900-1500 installed, I went with a hard dog bolt in.
edit: I probably didn’t understand the post correctly. Are the harnesses for a class/track requirement and not due to the style of the seat?
#89
08-06-2018, 11:33 AM
I got the impression that you were going to track the car, roll bar plus 5/6 point plus Hans all go together I would not do one of the three without doing all three you risk moving around too much with a stock belt ie ending up tangled in the bar.
and it's exhausting on the track trying to hang on.
and it's exhausting on the track trying to hang on.
#90
08-06-2018, 12:02 PM
Not the original poster, but was curious and later figured out the harness recommendation was for the intended track use. The euro JCW Recaro’s are just Sportster CS’s and there’s a seller on eBay who refurbishes them, along with custom upholstery options. They also offer an anti-submarining belt option for the lower cushion. Not sure how cutting out the hole affects the integrity of the seat in a crash since it wasn’t part of the original design, though.
For track use I would definitely get alcantara over the slippery leather version.
For track use I would definitely get alcantara over the slippery leather version.
#91
08-06-2018, 12:15 PM
If you retain the factory seat belt buckles front and rear you can use the Schroth Quickfit (4 point) belts, even with a roll bar and the Euro JCW seats (I had a set of those in my first MINI). Because the Schroth QuickFit is DOT legal it is accepted by the event organizers (BMW, PCA, etc.) around here. However, an individual instructor may opt to not use the Quickfit if you don’t have a roll bar. In that case you are required to use the 3 point belts (requirement for equal restraint for both you and instructor) and I have a set of CGLocks that I install for them.
#93
08-06-2018, 12:49 PM
Actually the stock GP rear sway bar is 18mm not 19mm.
And the Hsport Comp rear sway bar is 25.5mm hollow which is the same stiffness as a solid 22mm rear sway bar just without the extra weight and much higher quality bushings and material.
The average solid 22mm rear sway bar is 13-14lbs and the Hsport comp bar is 5.5lbs so a big savings. Also our WMW Hsport comp bar is grey powdercoat to match the GP
https://www.waymotorworks.com/wmw-rear-sway-bar.html
It's the ideal bar for all Gen1 and Gen 2 Cooper S. I tell everyone to start with it on the middle setting and go stiffer if they want, but 99% of people just love it on the middle and never change.
And the Hsport Comp rear sway bar is 25.5mm hollow which is the same stiffness as a solid 22mm rear sway bar just without the extra weight and much higher quality bushings and material.
The average solid 22mm rear sway bar is 13-14lbs and the Hsport comp bar is 5.5lbs so a big savings. Also our WMW Hsport comp bar is grey powdercoat to match the GP
https://www.waymotorworks.com/wmw-rear-sway-bar.html
It's the ideal bar for all Gen1 and Gen 2 Cooper S. I tell everyone to start with it on the middle setting and go stiffer if they want, but 99% of people just love it on the middle and never change.
What FSB would be a good choice to mate with the Hsport 25mm? I also have koni SAS and very sticky tires (see sig).
#94
08-06-2018, 01:42 PM
This stiffer FSB discussion is interesting to me. I put on a 25 hollow rear bar and have it on stiff. I like the feel and tendency to over-steer, but I've lost some corner entry balance and willingness to turn. I'm assuming this is the loss of camber up front as the suspension works (as mentioned). I'm strongly considering going to a larger FSB, but I'd like something adjustable and not TOO much stiffer, I just feel like I need 15% or so more to balance out the rear. I tried the rear on medium, but I prefer the stiff setting - I just feel like the front needs some attention now.
What FSB would be a good choice to mate with the Hsport 25mm? I also have koni SAS and very sticky tires (see sig).
What FSB would be a good choice to mate with the Hsport 25mm? I also have koni SAS and very sticky tires (see sig).
the gp is thinner 23.5mm.
somone somewhere thought it needed a little bit extra available for r58 coupe and r55 jcw sports suspension
otherwise I think after market fronts are 25/26/27 dependent on brand
#95
08-06-2018, 04:01 PM
Hope the OP doesn’t mind we have gone off topic on his thread, again.
I believe the H-sport 27mm front bar is hollow and is less stiff than the 24 mm bar JCW Sport bar and just slightly stiffer than the 23.5 mm GP bar. I am running the 27 mm solid bar with the IE fixed camberplates up front; 25 mm H-sport in the rear on the softest setting. This has great control over the front camber, turn-in and just turning. And the ride is fine, with good shocks.. The softer you go, the less resistance to the camber change. So I would add the 24 mm JCW bar in betweeen the 25mm bar and the 26mm bar.. Not sure if this helps, but those are your options for front bars.
I believe the H-sport 27mm front bar is hollow and is less stiff than the 24 mm bar JCW Sport bar and just slightly stiffer than the 23.5 mm GP bar. I am running the 27 mm solid bar with the IE fixed camberplates up front; 25 mm H-sport in the rear on the softest setting. This has great control over the front camber, turn-in and just turning. And the ride is fine, with good shocks.. The softer you go, the less resistance to the camber change. So I would add the 24 mm JCW bar in betweeen the 25mm bar and the 26mm bar.. Not sure if this helps, but those are your options for front bars.
Last edited by Eddie07S; 08-08-2018 at 11:45 AM. Reason: clarification
#96
08-07-2018, 08:21 AM
#97
08-07-2018, 11:53 AM
Last edited by Eddie07S; 08-08-2018 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Correction
#98
08-07-2018, 01:32 PM
Platinum Sponsor
Hope to do another track day at Pitt Race soon, did you get up there when you were here for the PVGP?
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#99
08-07-2018, 02:15 PM
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Subw00er (08-08-2018)
#100
08-08-2018, 11:38 AM
Hope the OP doesn’t mind we have gone off topic on his thread, again.
I believe the H-sport front bar is hollow and is less stiff than the 24 mm bar JCW Sport bar and just slightly less stiff than the 23.5 mm GP bar. I am running the 27 mm bar with the IE fixed camberplates up front; 25 mm H-sport in the rear on the softest setting. This has great control over the front camber, turn-in and just turning. And the ride is fine, with good shocks.. The softer you go, the less resistance to the camber change. So I would add the 24 mm JCW bar in betweeen the 25mm bar and the 26mm bar.. Not sure if this helps, but those are your options for front bars.
I believe the H-sport front bar is hollow and is less stiff than the 24 mm bar JCW Sport bar and just slightly less stiff than the 23.5 mm GP bar. I am running the 27 mm bar with the IE fixed camberplates up front; 25 mm H-sport in the rear on the softest setting. This has great control over the front camber, turn-in and just turning. And the ride is fine, with good shocks.. The softer you go, the less resistance to the camber change. So I would add the 24 mm JCW bar in betweeen the 25mm bar and the 26mm bar.. Not sure if this helps, but those are your options for front bars.
As for optional swaybars. There is a 25 mm bar from Mini Mania (appears to be solid, but not sure), but that is for the R56. I couldn't find one for the R53 (maybe some else knows of one for the R53). If there is one, then it would be about 17% stiffer than the 24 mm bar. The solid 26 mm bar would be about 37% stiffer than the 24 mm bar.
For the H-Sport front bar, it should have read that it is slightly stiffer than the 23.5mm GP bar. This is actually a hollow 27 mm bar.
Sorry about that. I corrected that post above.
Last edited by Eddie07S; 08-08-2018 at 11:53 AM.
The following users liked this post:
Subw00er (08-13-2018)