Seems to be a huge variation state to state because I know from talking with my gf who's a NY prosecutor that that's not reckless driving there, not even close. You have to unreasonably endanger the other users of the road and for that to stick at trial it needs to be more that just 10 over and crossing a yellow.
It's likely why so many people get off, your lawyer answer ready for trial and the ADA cuts a deal because it's not worth the state/counties time or money to take cases like that to trial.

 

Let's all remember: wreckless driving is a good thing!
Reckless, not so much.

Neil
05 MCS
96 M3

 

I am not advocating just paying the fine and walking away if there is a question as to the validity of the ticket. What needs to be clarified is the notion that "damn the cop got me and now I have to try and think of a way to get off of the ticket" is not a productive way to use the system. Take your court date and explain to the judge the circumstances of the ticket and count yourself lucky that your law breaking didn't harm anyone else. If you choose to break the law and get caught, your gamble didn't pay off. For example....on my way down to Vegas this spring for AMVIV I got caught on the highway east of Winnemucca going 89 in a 75 zone. I was polite to the officer, explained why I was going that fast (wasn't watching the speedo coming down the hill), and had all of my papers in order. He ended up writing the ticket for 80 instead. Did I go to court and try to fight this $100 fine.....no. I sent in a check with an explaination and took my lumps. The ticket was fair and expected.

 

I think that people just need to drive safe and obey the rules. If that happens then we don't have problems like this.

 

Even if the rules are wrong? Ever read the Declaration of Independence?

 

And if you don't like the rules, write your state representative

Until then they are the law and the United States is a nation of laws ... don't do the crime unless you can pay the time.

 

Here is a list of HORs

 

nevada had to do it or loose federal highway dollars. So they made speeding to 70 on the freeway a no points $10 fine. If the laws actually recognized reasonable behaviour and societal norms, I'd be happy.

I've a real problem with the disproportional punishements that some states do (remember, the penalties vary by state, and while yours may be reasonable, mine sure isn't!) so there are a lot of variables that vary by location that are sure to affect ones perspective.

Also, as far as perspective goes, I think the definition of dodging justice and making the system prove that they've got you could be labelled a symantic arguement.

Matt

 

In 1973 with a R&P speed limit, Montana went to $5 fines for over 55 (unless way over).

In fact, I have read reports from the state engineers AND the state police in MD stating that the speed limits on Interstate SHOULD be higher. The traffic moves safely at 75 (speed limit 65) but the legislature that makes the laws will not change it.

 

^ +1

If you think the traffic laws are unfair, vote for someone that's promising to overhaul them, or write your current state representative. Saying the law is unfair after you're caught seems a bit, well, disingenuous to me, sorry.

As for speeding, the 55MPH limit was implemented mainly to save gas during the oil embargo of the 70's, not so much for safety - that's why they've subsequently rolled back so many of those 55 MPH limits. But, the speed limit's the speed limit, so yeah, driving over the limit IS against the law. If you get caught, fess up, pay your fine and stop cluttering up the system (IMHO of course).

That said, I still want to get a radar detector... just, you know, to narrow the technology gap.

 

for some speed fines in CA if you can prove something like 80%+ of the traffic is flowing faster than the posted speed. Then it's considered a speed trap and other options open.

But no one admitted that they keep a list of what they've done wrong and that they send it in to pay all the infractions they've racked up...

So I guess we all live in some shade of grey...

Matt

 

Some people just get lucky. Everyone breaks the law at one point. If you meant to or not it doesn't matter, you still gotta pay. I have a friend that does drives like an idiot. He does everything illegal that he can and some how he never gets caught. Go figuere. Then some people just catch a bad break (grummpy cop or just a mistake) Ive seen people get a ticket for going 2mph over the speed limit (no joke) Honestly if anyone kept a list of what we have done wrong, we would owe a lot of money.

 

FULLY Agreed..
I HATE it when people act like little angels, driving 55mph on the highways...

I am telling ya, its the age thing... its the age thing...

 

OP: My BS meter hit overload when I read your post. If you take this to court the judge will probably conclude the same thing.

JohnG

 

I didn't know you were a judge?

 

With the "Stand up and be counted" attitude of ScottinBend and the like (not that I disagree with the spirit), I wonder where the line is drawn. If you break the law and no one sees, the law has still been broken, and a strict interpretation of taking responsibility for ones actions would be to confess to the authorites! I know this is absurd, but I just use it to illustrate the point that there isn't a fixed line between being responsible for our actions and being a slimey scum-bag who dodges all responsibillity and just wants to skate.

Scott is closer to full responsibility than am I (I'll always make the system prove the cought me, no matter how guilty I am, whereas he won't confess to un-observed infractions, but will not fight a ticket when he was in the wrong). We're just different shades of grey on this one. That's why I brought up the point about confession of all infractions. If one really want's to take responsibility for ones actions, confession of all is the only way to do it. We don't do it, we're all a bit slimey.....

Matt

 

But this isn't a black and white discussion Dr. O. I was stating that it is a waste of the systems resources to take a ticket that was deserved and try to fight it in court. By doing this you are wasting my money (taxes) and the state/county/city's time. Don't misquote me. I never said stand up and be counted. I never made any claims that I follow the law under all circumstances. Hell, I got to Vegas in a little less than 12 hours from Bend, OR. Figure that one out. My stand was in regards to just accepting responsibility for your actions and chalk it up. If I had had a questionable ticket issued and didn't fight it your arguement would be valid. We take a gamble every time we get behind the wheel and drive. Between fudging the speed limits and such to crossing the double yellow on our favorite drive home we take the chance of getting caught. Why gum up the system with a frivilous defence?

 

interesting to read this thread. 2 mo's ago, my SO got a ticket. Nope, he didn't tell me, I saw it laying on the dresser. It said "reckless speed". He was on his RC51. He decided he wanted to go to court. Me, being ignorant, just wanted him to pay the fine (after I chewed him out). How frickin stupid could he be? Well, since my experience with tickets had been minimal (expired registration, although it wasn't expired, the new tag hadn't made it to my new address, and one speeding ticket 50 in a 35 which was actually the on ramp to the highway, runny a stop sign which was blocked by a tree and a van. I did stop once I saw it, I just happened to be in the middle of the intersection.)I thought it was better to avoid court. So, he goes to court on his own, comes out with no points, megafine but reduced and traffic school. The fine started out at 700 and was reduced to 400. Funny thing is, after that ticket and way before court, his bike has been parked. His decision. And an excellent one I might add. But, I can't judge anyone because I am just as guilty when it comes to spirited driving.

 

Par for the course when you consider that speeding tickets have almost as much to do with revenue gathering as they do with actual safety. You guys should be glad that they don't used fixed and mobile hidden speed cameras as much here as they do in New Zealand and Australia. Those things are a license to print money and very hard to beat.

 

I've seen it from both sides here in Chicago. I frequently see people driving recklessly (occasional drag races at the lights, high speed weaving and shoulder usage on interstates, and even some 80 mph sport bike wheelies on the interstates). I am constantly amazed at the decisions people make behind the wheel, putting themselves and everyone else at significant risk of injuries or worse.

With that said, I am also a critic of the way our city and state approaches speed enforcement. 55 mph limits were indeed set to try and maximize fuel effiiciency in the 70's, but many have attributed their continued usage to trying to keep the roads safe - "fifty-five, stay alive". But can't we all agree on the drastic safety improvements over the last 35 years? Myriads of airbags, 3-point belts, crumple zones, traction control, ABS brakes, drastically improved tires etc.

Recently, the Chicago Tribune ran a story where they mapped out speeding tickets issued along side state and municiple budgets. I'm sure we were all shocked to see that as the budgets have been cut over the last 3 years, there has been a correlating increase in tickets written. Can anyone say "alternative revenue generation"?

To make matters worse, Illinois has adopted a ridiculously severe policy for speeding in construction zones. They are now using speed trap cameras to capture speeders, who then receive the minimum construction zone fine of $375 for their first offense, and then $1,000 dollars for a second offense if within 12 months.

I'm sure some of you are thinking, "How can you complain about a policy that is put in place to protect these highway workers from reckless drivers?" A while back one of the car mags (I think it was either R&T or C&D) ran a story on this exact issue. They did some digging, and there had been something like 45 construction workers who had died on the job in the state of Illinois that year (I think it was 2004). But when they dug a little deeper, they learned that of the 45 or so killed, only TWO were killed by motorists, the rest were on-site accidents (several of which were people who were run over by equipment).

To further illustrate the real reasons behind this drastic fine and camera usage in construction zones, let me explain how this new law works in more detail. No workers need be present in order for the full violation to be applied. So if you're driving through a construction zone on a saturday night at 10:00 with open roads and no workers, you will still get a $375 ticket for driving the normally posted speed limit.

Furthermore, it would seem there has been an increase in the length of the construction zones, and how long they are left in place. On my way to work this past year, a construction project was finished but the barrels/lights/etc. were left in place for over a week! I wonder why?

I agree 100% that if someone wants to push their car or explore their limits, take it to a track day. Not only is it a MUCH safer environment, it's a ton of fun. Spend the day with fellow car nuts, no concern about tickets etc. The roads are not meant for that type of aggressive driving, speed is meant for the track.

With that said, I think we can all agree that more and more of the tickets written are primarily driven by a need to generate income. If we are going to spend time/money/effort to write tickets, let's do so with an honest effort to make the roads a safer place for all of us. Identify the truly excessive speeders, people not paying attention while driving, tailgating, switching lanes in an intersection, pushing yellow/pink stoplights and especially driving under the influence. These pose much more of a threat than someone driving 10 mph over the speed limit.

And if we need more money to support our state and municiple budgets, then increase our taxes a little and move on. I'd rather pay my taxes once a year, and not have it affect my insurance premium.

 

I didn't mean to twist your words. But really, don't you see this as a continuom of behaviours? You speed, don't confess to it, and pay your fines when you're caught. (One could say that your actions "Waste the time of" the law inforcment officers who could be working on real crime.) This is one way to deal with it, but it is far from being totally honest about your behaviour with regards to traffic enforcement, basically saying you have to catch me to get me. Those that fight in court say you have to catch me, and then prove it in court. Is this wasting peoples time and resources or making sure the state doesn't cut corners and that they meet the burdon of proof? Again, a perspective call. And those that hire a lawyer are saying you have to catch me, and prove it in court when I also throw into the mix an expert in using the very legal system that caught the offender in the first place to avoid penalties, using that very same expertise that is being applied to punish me. Waste of courts time or leveling of the playing field? Once again, a judgement call.

I still maintain that these are all different shades of grey, and it's a perspecitive call.

Matt

 

Also add into the discussion, that a lot of municipalities view "traffic enforcement" as a source of revenue, and expect their law enforcement officers to find ways of generating that ticket revenue. That's when you start seeing the multiple-ticket scenario that started this thread - and when you make sure you go to court with a lawyer, to protect YOUR rights under the law.

 

This entire issue is the main reason why am a proud member of the National Motorists Association (NMA). This non-profit organization's sole purpose is to protect the rights of you and me, the common motorist.

The problem I have with the status-quo in this country regarding traffic laws and enforcement, is that many of the laws & regulations (especially speed-zone determination) are not set with the public safety in mind, but rather with the aim of increasing revenue to local and state governments through the form of ticket generation.

Most of the players, from the police officers, government officials, prosecutors & judges and insurance companies all benefit from taking our money to their coffers, so they have plenty of incentive to keep things the way they are now.

The fact is, there is an official federal document called the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) that sets guidelines and requirements on speed limits, timings on yellow lights, road sign design, etc. The problem is, many jurisdictions ignore the MUTCD and set it themselves, often way below the guidelines... which is how you end up with such craziness as a 35-mph limit on a (non-residential) divided 4-lane road, for example.

Ironically, the whole system is dependent upon 90% or more of the tickets being unchallenged. Our willingness to "just pay it" is what keeps the system the way it is. If more people were to challenge the tickets and make the system justify them, courts would become so clogged that they would have to raise the bar to more sensible enforcement. It's our complacency that feeds the system.

In any case, I encourage each of you to check out the NMA and consider joining. I don't agree with ALL of their policies, but 90% of them are sound, logical and fair... for us, the motorists!

 

Edge, you post above was beyond excellent. Obviously, you get it.

I hail from a small city within a small county in the baclwoods of Georgia that is ruled by the ironfisted god of radar. ALL of the abuses listed in your post (and in the last few) are commonplace here. In addition to RIGOROUS enforcement, you'll also be treated like the recruits were in Full Metal Jacket! If that's not enough, just follow around one of these local yokels and you'll see THOUSANDS of dollars worth of speeding, rolling stops, blown red lights, etc. Our local cops are anything but the "selfless heros" that the media and many NAMsters make them out to be. As a consequence, this ain't such a great area to live.

I am puzzled that you are a moderator here. It seems to me that the Official position here at NAM is that the speed limit is ALWAYS fair, cops are always right, anyone who gets a ticket is the spawn of the Devil, and that anyone who fights one in court is likely to be the Devil incarnate. Thanks for showing me that there are some folks here who really DO have some comon sense about these issues.

Rawhyde

PS I do NOT advocate going triple digits through school zones or other types of dangerous driving, and I haven't paid a ticket since I was ripped off in 1982....so no flames about what a horrible and dangerous driver I am.

 

See, that's where the common misconception is.

The people that run and moderate NAM are reasonable people (most of the time, anyway). However, the guidelines are in place for a reason. Discussing speeding laws, the courts and other relevant "motorist" topics isn't a problem.

The PROBLEM stems from people "glorifying" blatant and excessively dangerous driving behavior. I don't think that any moderator on NAM actually believes that most of the NAM members actually drive no more than 55 in a 55 zone. People are people, and let's face it, very few people adhere strictly to speed limits. However, most people are relatively "reasonable and prudent" about their driving, even if they aren't following every letter of the law.

The key to avoiding moderation on NAM (about this issue) is to not brag about speeds reached, or tell stories of street racing, etc. Why not? Because if that type of discussion was permitted, then it would be implied that NAM condones (and possibly encourages) it. Then, all it would take is for one of our NAM members to do something REALLY stupid on the roads and kill or seriously injure someone else...

...and the lawyers step in. This is America, and lawyers in this country just LOVE to put the blame on someone else - anyone else... that they can find.

There is a reasonable balance that has to be kept here, in order to protect the site and keep it as the wonderful resource it is for all MINI owners. That is all we're trying to do... and as NAM continues to grow, it becomes more and more important to enforce this.

Hopefully this helps... and you can understand the tough job that moderators have sometimes. We are frequently dealing with a "grey area", since we don't want to be gestapo-like, however we also need to protect the site and its policies. Some choices are very tough!