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Metal shavings on magnetic plug @ oil change. What to freak out about first?
I fitted a Mishimoto MMODP-1215B magentic oil drain plug to my 2017 F56S. First oil change after, found about 0.5mm - 1mm of fine (like granules of soil fine) metal shavings on the tip of the plug. No shavings on the sides of the plug, just on the tip.
Just under 107K miles on the car at the oil change of this finding; just under 6500 miles since prior oil change. I generally change my oil every 5K miles. Prior owner put 72K miles on it before my purchase, though, and I think she "did whatever the car said" (meaning 10K interval).
What, if anything, should I freak out about first?
Hmmm. A picture of said clever magnetic plug with the offending residue would be nice, but absent that here are my initial thoughts.
First, I wouldn't freak out about anything at all. What if the introduction of the magnet has simply gathered all the fine residue in the car's history? No evidence I can use to associate volume with time, right? Just one data point.
Second I wouldn't ignore it either. You have no other symptoms, yes? None are mentioned.
I reckon what I'd do (B48 Mini with 119k miles) if it were my car is to drive with the fresh oil and filter for another thousand miles or thirty days, and then check it thoroughly.
. plug attracted more metal?
. drain AND FILTER the oil and carefully examine the filter element after the "old" oil has passed through it, and finally
. examine the filter element in the "old" oil filter
With two points in time, and with the additional inspections, I would then decide whether to freak out or not.
@cmt52663 -- here you go. Thankfully I had the foresight to take some pics and a video.
Click here for a video of the drain plug before removing any of the residue, and during the removal process (meaning wiping it off on a paper towel, insanely sophisticated).
The video was taken immediately after the 2nd pic below. FWIW what ends up on the paper towel in the video was definitely a silver-grey metallic, once the oil itself got out of the way.
@cmt52663 and @minimusings , correct, no other symptoms (or at least nothing obvious to me as indicating a grindy-messy-engine-kablooey problem impending).
Now, just to make this fun, I don't have the Mishimoto plug any more. If you do overtorque the Mishimoto plug -- which you will absolutely do if you use the TIS torque spec of 25 Nm -- it won't strip the drain pan threads, it will snap some porcelain inside the plug itself. And you can unscrew what's left. Ask me how I know.
I had to throw a leftover factory plug on to keep the vehicle running, but I'll switch back to a magnetic plug at next drain/fill.
Anyway -- it sounds like the thing to do here is either to do another drain/fill in the manner you each described at 1K miles running -- or maybe wait until my 5K interval hits. I hesitate to treat a 1K drain/fill as representative, because with this oil change I put Liqui Moly CeraTec in for the first time (which will affect any analysis of the now-in-engine oil for sure).
Also, you reminded me -- in terms of this being representative or not -- not only was it the first drain/fill after using the magnetic plug, but I did an engine flush -- another first -- with Liqui Moly Pro-Line Engine Flush before doing the drain. So if the engine flush did its job, maybe that's why I "got stuff".
@cmt52663 and @minimusings , correct, no other symptoms (or at least nothing obvious to me as indicating a grindy-messy-engine-kablooey problem impending).
Now, just to make this fun, I don't have the Mishimoto plug any more. If you do overtorque the Mishimoto plug -- which you will absolutely do if you use the TIS torque spec of 25 Nm -- it won't strip the drain pan threads, it will snap some porcelain inside the plug itself. And you can unscrew what's left. Ask me how I know.
I had to throw a leftover factory plug on to keep the vehicle running, but I'll switch back to a magnetic plug at next drain/fill.
Anyway -- it sounds like the thing to do here is either to do another drain/fill in the manner you each described at 1K miles running -- or maybe wait until my 5K interval hits. I hesitate to treat a 1K drain/fill as representative, because with this oil change I put Liqui Moly CeraTec in for the first time (which will affect any analysis of the now-in-engine oil for sure).
Also, you reminded me -- in terms of this being representative or not -- not only was it the first drain/fill after using the magnetic plug, but I did an engine flush -- another first -- with Liqui Moly Pro-Line Engine Flush before doing the drain. So if the engine flush did its job, maybe that's why I "got stuff".
Appreciate all the guidance. It's good stuff.
I am at 62,000 miles and was considering doing an oil flush with the liqui moly and using ceratec. I bought both but chickened out when I changed my oil and instead sent oil for analysis as I was also 16 oz low on coolant with no evidence of a leak. My analysis came back that my oil looked good for its mileage on oil with no evidence of coolant. I may do a flush the next time but afraid of what it might stir up. My oil had the factory 10,000 mile oil changes for the first 40,000 miles and since then I change myself every 3-5,000 with liqui moly. I still need to find why I was low on coolant. Good luck with your engine. These engines seem much better that my old R56.
If you want with fresh oil and filter in the engine run the engine some miles -- a 1000 miles is just as good as any but if if that bit of debris was anything to really worry about any distance is risky... -- then drain the oil and catch a suitable sample for analysis. Have the oil analyzed. If the analysis finds abnormally high PPM of wear metals or bearing metal in the oil then you can panic... I suspect it will find just the normal and very low PPM amounts.
Don't "flush" the engine. Just drive the car normally and if you want engage in several shorter than normal oil change intervals. But really as long as you don't drive big miles between oil changes and change (drain) the oil hot you are doing all you can to help prolong engine service life. My SOP is change the oil/filter every 5K miles. Haven't driven any MINI to beyond 25K miles yet but I have driven a number of other cars to 150K miles and beyond and with no engine issues due to oiling. And every engine received 5K mile oil/filter services. This despite the fact in every case the factory called for 6K, or 10K or even 15K mile oil services.
I am at 62,000 miles and was considering doing an oil flush with the liqui moly and using ceratec. I bought both but chickened out when I changed my oil and instead sent oil for analysis as I was also 16 oz low on coolant with no evidence of a leak. My analysis came back that my oil looked good for its mileage on oil with no evidence of coolant. I may do a flush the next time but afraid of what it might stir up. My oil had the factory 10,000 mile oil changes for the first 40,000 miles and since then I change myself every 3-5,000 with liqui moly. I still need to find why I was low on coolant. Good luck with your engine. These engines seem much better that my old R56.
I use Liqui Moly Top Tec 6600 for my F56S. My $0.02, by the way you describe how you've been handling your oil changes, you're good. There may be a time for Cera Tec / etc but I don't know specifically when that is. I tend to bias towards sooner rather than later because by the time it's obvious it's too late. Maybe the 70K mark. But that is my gut talking, not some specific observation.
Re your coolant leak, 2 things.
(1) Get a cheap borescope and inspect all four sides of the mating surface between your oil cooler/oil filter housing and the crankcase. I have seen (including mine) four separate instances of the oil cooler failing in exactly the same place internally -- a chunk of plastic breaks off (who knows where it ends up) and because that break point adjoins a gasket mating surface, you end up with a gasket leak. You will NOT see coolant pooling under car because of the fabric skid plate absorbing it (if the drip even gets that far). You MAY -- but only after a certain level of severity -- see streaks of dried coolant (white, probably) from vehicle front to rear on the bottom of the oil pan. You MAY see a similar white streak or streaks on the oil filter housing from the bottom when you change the oil, but probably not. You will NOT be able to see anything from the top without removing the intake or using the borescope. Visibility from the bottom is insanely limited (back to the borescope). See this thread and this thread for references.
(2) Outside of (1) I still have a small amount of coolant that believes it is socks and that my car is a dryer. I have found dried coolant on the underside of two midsize hoses running below the battery -- my next task is to pull the battery/all the stuff above so I can get to both ends of those hoses and see what's up.
And yeah, the B46 is definitely better than the N18. Thanks, N18, for burning the letters "HPFP" and "FRM" into my brain for life
Oh, last thing, re "stirring stuff up" doing an engine flush. The Liqui Moly engine flush product specifically indicates that you put it in the engine, idle for 15 minutes, and immediately drain all the oil. No driving with the stuff in the car. No keeping it in the car for 150 miles. This is very different than the approach many of us have seen recommended with Seafoam. I'm guessing part of the reason is exactly what you are concerned about: if something gets stirred up, get that stuff out of there.
So this thread is veering in some interesting directions -- all good ones. I figure now that my thoughts are a bit more collected and I have some solid feedback here, I'll recap.
(1) Car was purchased at 72K+ miles from a not-MINI dealership that got it on trade-in. Prior history is a single owner. I even know -- well, knew, they closed -- the MINI dealer that serviced the car under the first owner. First owner pretty much babied the car but was "not technical" for sure, so babying means they were doing whatever the car said whenever the car said it. This is good in general, but we all know that the "car says" at 10K miles. So safe to presume the car had probably had 7 oil changes -- 10K intervals plus one as it was prepped for resale -- when I bought it.
(2) My preferred oil change interval, since oil change at ~93K miles, has been 5K miles. I haven't been perfect about it and various things have gotten in the way, but I've stayed pretty close.
(3) At the oil change that is the subject of this thread, car was just short of 107K miles. It had been through oil cooler/oil filter housing failure, and post-repair still has some other slow mystery coolant leak, but outside of that no obvious signs of any underhood engine trouble.
(4) At the oil change, did an engine flush with Liqui Moly Pro-Line Engine Flush. For those unfamiliar with the product, you pour it into the crankcase at operating temperature, let the engine idle for 10-15 minutes, and then drain the engine oil (while still hot). NO driving, revving, etc with the stuff in the engine. This was the first and only performance of an engine flush on this car (barring something under the first owner, which is unlikely).
(5) When refilling, added 300 mL Liqui Moly Cera Tec (oil added reduced by the amount of Cera Tec). Engine oil was Liqui Moly Top Tech 6600 0w20. This was the first and only use of Cera Tec on the car (barring something under the first owner, which is unlikely).
In terms of why I went through the flush and Cera Tec:
(1) I made the mistake (from a stress standpoint, lol) of sticking myself in a couple of MINI spaces online and got bombarded with enough stuff about pre-B46/B48 engines to remind me that when BMW engines get unhappy they get really really unhappy. My personal experience with a high-mileage N18 was "not fun" and clearly I am not alone. Since my B46 is at 100K miles, I wanted to move to high-mileage maintenance strategies (thanks again, BTW, to @cmt52663 for starting a thread about that topic).
(2) My other routine hands-on is with a VERY high-mileage (352K) Subaru that I have maintained since 51K+ miles. The difference between that car and Subarus I see dealing with issues of clogged piston rings and other "high mileage stuff" has been sharp attention since 71K to keeping the engine running clean. For BMW/MINI owners some of my tactical is just "normal" now (example: a high-quality synthetic). Other parts of my tactical have included annual engine flush, annual attention to fuel system components, and an eye on PCV system components nobody talks about but that absolutely get clogged with carbon cake. On today's GDI engines it extends a bit further, staying at least somewhat paranoid about carbon especially at the intake valves, but in all honesty in any spot that carbon can gunk up (over the long haul, I'm watching the entire combustion chamber).
(3) With all of the above in mind, I'm working with the "all things man-made fail" assumption set and looking to push that failure point as far into the future as possible.
So coming back to the shavings -- and I'm very interested in comments from those who have looked at the photos or the video in my post above -- I'd guess they go back to Day One of the engine since this was a first-of-kind flush at ~107K.
Hope the recap is useful.
BTW @RockC , @minimusings , @Smizrahi noted your comments about oil analysis, looks like that's definitely in my future, I just have to decide whether I want to do it at (in miles since this last change) the 1K mark or the 5K mark (I'm thinking of letting the Cera Tec settle in?)
I had a Volvo V70R and used a magnetic plug. I had iron mud too each change. Car had 150k miles when I sold it running fine. I think more examples are needed to know other's experience. I was not concerned about mine.
With such minute particles being captured on the magnetic drain plug, I wouldn't worry about it. If you are concerned about the health of your engine, pull an oil sample at your next change, and have it sent in for lab analysis to a place such as Blackstone Labs https://www.blackstone-labs.com/
Also, 5000 mile oil change, and 10,000 mile filter change will give you good engine life based on current oil and filter qualities. Do NOT change the oil based on the on-board service counters.
If the debris is really a sign of a problem -- which I don't think it is -- the time to do an oil analysis is when you first drained the oil. 'course no one anticipates an engine problem when he is just doing a routine oil/filter service.
If the debris is a real concern putting any miles on the engine is not advised.
But like I said that amount of fine metal "dust" is not alarming. My auto tech buddies told me one never drops the oil pan of engine unless he must. Too often there is scary looking stuff in the pan -- bigger bits -- that has been in there since the engine was assembled or run for the first few minutes after assembly.
The magnet just collected a bit of fine dust that had been at the bottom of the oil pan doing no harm. You want to see something scary with a new engine with say 750 miles on it remove an oil filter canister and dump its oil contents out in a clean pan. The filter catches a lot of trash and what doesn't get caught in the filter folds remains in the canister.
Might have posted this before, but here's a pic of the oil canister oil from my 2008 Porsche Cayman S after 750 miles from new:
I am not a fan of any magnet in the oil pan. A problem is the magnet collects a blob of metal but then the blob breaks loose. Now instead of being just an unorganized bunch of metal dust it is a cohesive blob and this can get sucked into the oil pump intake. The oil pump can handle small bits of metal but a blob can cause the oil pump gear to break.
If you want with fresh oil and filter in the engine run the engine some miles -- a 1000 miles is just as good as any but if if that bit of debris was anything to really worry about any distance is risky... -- then drain the oil and catch a suitable sample for analysis. Have the oil analyzed. If the analysis finds abnormally high PPM of wear metals or bearing metal in the oil then you can panic... I suspect it will find just the normal and very low PPM amounts.
Don't "flush" the engine. Just drive the car normally and if you want engage in several shorter than normal oil change intervals. But really as long as you don't drive big miles between oil changes and change (drain) the oil hot you are doing all you can to help prolong engine service life. My SOP is change the oil/filter every 5K miles. Haven't driven any MINI to beyond 25K miles yet but I have driven a number of other cars to 150K miles and beyond and with no engine issues due to oiling. And every engine received 5K mile oil/filter services. This despite the fact in every case the factory called for 6K, or 10K or even 15K mile oil services.
Originally Posted by Smizrahi
I am at 62,000 miles and was considering doing an oil flush with the liqui moly and using ceratec. I bought both but chickened out when I changed my oil and instead sent oil for analysis as I was also 16 oz low on coolant with no evidence of a leak. My analysis came back that my oil looked good for its mileage on oil with no evidence of coolant. I may do a flush the next time but afraid of what it might stir up. My oil had the factory 10,000 mile oil changes for the first 40,000 miles and since then I change myself every 3-5,000 with liqui moly. I still need to find why I was low on coolant. Good luck with your engine. These engines seem much better that my old R56.
Originally Posted by RockC
If the debris is really a sign of a problem -- which I don't think it is -- the time to do an oil analysis is when you first drained the oil. 'course no one anticipates an engine problem when he is just doing a routine oil/filter service.
If the debris is a real concern putting any miles on the engine is not advised.
But like I said that amount of fine metal "dust" is not alarming. My auto tech buddies told me one never drops the oil pan of engine unless he must. Too often there is scary looking stuff in the pan -- bigger bits -- that has been in there since the engine was assembled or run for the first few minutes after assembly.
The magnet just collected a bit of fine dust that had been at the bottom of the oil pan doing no harm. You want to see something scary with a new engine with say 750 miles on it remove an oil filter canister and dump its oil contents out in a clean pan. The filter catches a lot of trash and what doesn't get caught in the filter folds remains in the canister.
Might have posted this before, but here's a pic of the oil canister oil from my 2008 Porsche Cayman S after 750 miles from new:
I am not a fan of any magnet in the oil pan. A problem is the magnet collects a blob of metal but then the blob breaks loose. Now instead of being just an unorganized bunch of metal dust it is a cohesive blob and this can get sucked into the oil pump intake. The oil pump can handle small bits of metal but a blob can cause the oil pump gear to break.
This is def helpful and gives good perspective. Thank you. Additionally appreciate the feedback on the magnetic plug itself -- I have wondered about this a bit, your contribution is a good POV to have on deck for my go-forward there. I have had... mixed feelings about it for sure.
Try blackstone-lab oil analysis, cheap enough then assess. When I change my oil I send a sacrificial quart-ish thru to give me a warm fuzzy feeling.
I used a magnetic drain plug once on my 87 Mustang. Found a piece of bright shinny metal slightly larger than a Pop rock (old candy) that's in addition to all the tiny shavings.
I never used a magnetic drain plug since.
