Now to blow everyone away I am going to make a possible suggestion...

I have no proof of this and can not check it because I have a 2005 but, I do have the spare plastic key, and the regular key fobs (hang in there I will start making sense). When you place the key near the ignition it senses it is there via a magnet or chip or something in the key including the all plastic spare.

Is it possible there is something similar in the seatbelt buckle?

I know you are trying to go away from getting an extra male part, and I understand the main concern is to not have to unplug that in order to buckle in when someone is ridding. So maybe strapping on to the buckle would work.

Again I have no idea with this will work but it may be worth a try, just put the male next to the female and see if it shuts the gong off. Or maybe it is a combination. Seems like this would be a complicated way for the MINI to be built but who knows?

 

Reporting a post that you simply "don't like" is not valid. Reporting a post that breaks the site guidelines is. You are welcome to report them... but abusing the reporting system in order to act as some kind of protest will only draw more negative attention to yourself.No, I don't just "police as I go". I don't have time to read every thread and every post on NAM. Nobody does. The moderation team relies on the user community to bring concerns to our attention. Your post was reported (and not by the person you probably thought), I read it and took action on it.

I stepped up the new infraction to a strike because it was a very strong statement, and you have been warned before. You knew better and you did it anyway.

That being said, with the very unusual PM request both you and I received, I have decided to lower it from a 100-point strike to a regular 25-point infraction.

ma78, on the other hand, has received what he explicitly asked for. 7-day temporary ban. If he wants to make it permanent, he can. I wish he had chosen a more constructive way to deal with his disappointment and frustration than this.

Not agreeing with an infraction is fine. It's how you disagree that is more the issue. Maturity counts for a lot.I did read through it. Like I said, if you feel another post has gone "beyond" acceptable in terms of the guidelines, report it. There were many unpleasant posts but it was yours that really went over the line.

 

And thats one persons opinion.....again do what you will my life will not change at all if I am no longer on this forum other than a lower BP reading.

On a side note Fishbert went out of his way to write a PM to the mod in defense of me..even though he was a target..Fishbert your a stand up guy...thanks

 

I do... lol

 

Schatzy62, any thoughts on what I wrote?

 

Yes i did that. BTW a little on my background. I did 4 years at MIT in electronics.

Although all of the info in that wiki page is correct it does not tell the whole story. It does not go into the use of Digital Hall Effect Switches.

From Melexis a Hall Effect Switch manufacturer: (the page linked below has a demonstration on a simple Digital Hall Effect Switch)

The Hall effect switch is a digital semiconductor switch that changes state in the presence of a magnetic field. The switch is normally OFF (not conducting). When a magnetic field of sufficient strength and appropriate polarity is brought near the switch it will change its state, turn ON and conduct. The switch points are accurate and repeatable.

http://www.melexis.com/Assets/The_Ha...itch_3723.aspx


Your logic is very good if we were talking about analog electronics but we are talking about digital electronics here.

The Air Bag Control Module (a computer) wants to see a digital pulse of 5VDC spaced at 200ms when the buckle is not connected. So the only voltages that the module wants to see are 5VDC and 0VDC. There will be very little if any measurable current there. From the looks of the picture in post #82 the (it's not high resolution) the pulse width is about maybe 10ms.

Changing the voltage away from 5VDC or changing the almost no current that is generated in the pulse to 5VDC will only show the computer there is a problem.

If we were working on a older car that was not digital in nature your logic would probably work very well.

Yes it is very possible.

I have a couple of ideas with magnets as well and will try them along with your suggestion (which i had not thought of, thanks) and try them when i head out to lunch in a few minutes.

 

You are free to make the choices you want to make. I'm hoping that you come to realize that NAM is just a bit "different" than most other Internet car forums in the atmosphere we try to maintain... then adjust to it and stick around. It really isn't that difficult to do.

NAM has a lot to offer for many MINI enthusiasts, and shared knowledge is always better than always figuring things out for ourselves. While it would indeed be a shame to lose a contributor here, I'm hoping that cooler heads prevail.

The choice isn't up to me. I'm just trying to fulfill my responsibility.

 

Edge
Thanks for the PM and response. I am going to bow out of this thread and let it get back on track.
Regards

 

I think this would work, although I don't know how much the parts would cost:

1) Get a new (or used) seat belt latch (male part) and receptacle/stalk (female part).

2) Put the new latch in the stock receptacle, un-anchor the stock receptacle/stalk from its mounting point and relocate it under the seat, taking care that the wires don't foul the seat tracks.

3) Mount the new receptacle/stalk in the factory anchor point, but leave the wires unconnected.

Now, the computer always sees the latch inserted in the receptacle that's under the seat, and your day-to-day use of the seat belt is unaffected. (i.e. you don't have to remove a dummy latch from the receptacle in order to use your seat belt.)

 

MINIdave,

I am not totally sure on this but i beleive that the Hall Effect Switch generates the pulse, and with no buckle the digital pulse is 5VDC at about 10ms and then off for about 190ms.

I think what is happening here is the pulse width or duration is changed by buckling up.

As i have no where to be able to take the car apart currently (it 15 degrees and snowing outside and i do not have a garage) i have no way of testing with an Oscope how the signal changes.

As for the gong in the radio. The head unit is a only one of the computers in your MINI. All are connected thru a CAN BUS System.

The Air Bag Control Module, (one of the computers) as well as many others send data to the head unit for processing and then the head unit outputs a signal wether it is in the form of a sound or an idiot light or words on the display screen. So the signal, gong, that we hear from the speakers is actually produced in the head unit based on what anohter computer, the Air Bag Module, tells the head unit to produce. The Air Bag Module can also tell the head uint to dispaly the airbag light or tell ohter mosules (computers) on board to tighten the seat belts in the event of a crash.

So when we get down to it. It is not the simple turn the swhitch on and power goes to the item.

In this case it is:

1. buckle seat belt
2. seat belt buckle switch sends signal to air bag contorl module
3. air bag control module takes that signal and ohters and tells the head unit to do something. i.e. show a warning and gong for 15 seconds then stop.
4. when seat belt is removed during driving the air bag control module will tell the head unit that the seat belt has just benn unbuckled.
5. the head unit will then display the warning light in the speedo and then wait for 15 seconds.
6. if the head unit has not recieved another note,(signal) from the air bag control unit with in the 15 seconds then it will start to genereate teh goog for approximately 90 seconds and then stop
7. if after the 15 and 90 seconds the head unit has not recieved another note (signal) from the airbag control module then it will turn off the gong and leave only the warning light on.

It is all done with on/off logic circuits inthe computers of the car.

I hope all of this explination helps. if not let me know and i will try to explain it in anohter way.

 

Good thought but that is expensive and I would then have to have the thing wrapped in bubble wrap to keep it quite, although the bubble warp will probably make to much noise as well.

But you might be on to something there. Maybe just see about removing the switch from the receptacle/stalk and having it somehow activated by something.

Unfortunately you can not just order the male end of the seat belt from the dealer they will only sell the whole seat belt assembly. But getting one from a junk yard is possible.

 

ok, some PM stuff... (I hope you don't mind, schatzy)

It may be that the computer is looking for an altered pulse of some kind, but that seems a little fancy for simple seat belt yes/no logic. And being that particular about what you're looking for also seems like a good way to introduce nuisance faults. I suspect it's more of a blunt on/off effect, with the computer only looking at the signal for that short period when voltage is applied.

It makes sense that shorting VDD and OUT together, leaving OUT open, and putting a resistor between VDD and OUT would have the same result.
If you short VDD and OUT together, it would be the same effect as leaving OUT unconnected (assuming VDD is also 5V, that is). And with a resistor between the two -- you'd have the pull-up (not shown, but on the other end of the OUT line) and the added resistor both tied to 5V on one side, with their shared point still allowed to float with the non-conducting FET.

But if you short OUT to ground, that would be something different, and I suspect the result from the computer will also be different.

No problem. I hope the more frustrating threads like this don't sour you too much of the forums. You do add quite a lot to the community.

And thanks to MINIdave, as well, for explaining in post #74 why the "just plug something into the buckle" didn't work for him. I respect that. It can be really frustrating when people reject or even attack solutions that have been offered, don't explain why, then expect more help with finding a different solution. That's what I had been seeing, and that's what I was hung up on.

 

Don't mind at all
But this is BMW we are dealing with. I have found from owning a number of them they do not do anything the EASY way.


So on to a few other things i tried while i was at lunch. Some of these may be way out there but what the heck.

1. Plastic Knife. Fit well but did not disable the warning light or gong

2. Large magnet. DId not do anything.

3. Plastic knife and large magnet. Still a gong and warning light.

EDIT:
4. Hold buckle next to receptacle, did nothing to stop the incessant noise.

5. Put buckle in only part way to catch one slight resistance node i found with the knife
END EDIT

A friend works at a machine shop so i have asked him to get me a piece of plastic that i can make a buckle out of to see if it needs to be just that shape or that shape and metal.

My gut feeling is that there may be two or more switches in series in the buckle receptacle.

 

I am ignorant to how the computer functions in regards to the belts, but if the computer is convinced that the seat belt is plugged in when it is not, do you guys worry about the air bags going off unnecessarily if and when you get into an accident?

 

hey schatzy, 3 1/2 years of Mech eng at WPI here. Doesn't make me an expert in electronics but still.

So if it's a digital signal, the comp pulses 5 V and if there is no buckle it sees 5 V on the return line. Now if there is a buckle it should see 0V? So again wouldn't a resistor solve that?

 

Dan, Is that Worchester Poly in MA.

I do not beleive that the computer does the pulsing. I beleive that it is the Hall Switch that is causeing the pulse. The computer just outputs 5VDC going to the VCC input of the Hall Switch and the Switch then generates the pulse on the output lead.

The pulse when the belt is UN-buckled looks like 10ms on and 190ms off. But there is not indication that when buckled is goes to zero. I believe that the Hall Switch is jsut causing a change in the duration of the pulse or time between pulses. Thus no resistor or other non active electronics component will change the pulse the way it needs to be changed.

 

As i read this it would be the ohter way around. The air bag does not go off in a low level crash where if it knew the seat belt was not pulged in it would go off in a low level crash.

Unfortunately i do not think nor has BMW/MINI made any indications of there being a difference in air bag deployement depending on seat belt usage.

 

Yup, I'm at Worcester poly, where do you work in ma?

So really we need to measure the output wire with an oscilloscope to see how the output is changed with the buckle in and out. Without that we don't really know what we need to do to emulate the buckle.

 

OK, so what happens if we find a way to emulate the buckle and put it in place. De we need to dis-enable the emulator before we actually plug the buckle back in? Is this an either/or fix or an either/both fix?

 

Work in Fitchburg and live in Gardner

Correct on the testing.

Can't answer those questions yet as we do not know yet what the emulation needs to be. It could be simple just not found yet or it could mean a bunch of wiring and a circuit needs to be added. I am working toward not having to have something in the buckle receptacle so that the seat belt can be plugged in any time it is needed.

For all,

One other question is have is

Has any one tried to but a buckle in the receptacle and have the belt Not pulled out. I would not put it past BMW to have a sensor on the belt retractor saying that it is not pulled out.

 

That just seems too fancy and prone to mis-reads for something that's safety-critical like a seat belt system. And look at what you cut-n-pasted back in post 82:It seems pretty clear that the pulses are due to the computer, not the hall effect sensor. And that makes sense, as there's no reason to power the circuit unless you want to take a measurement (which I bet the computer does about 5 times per second, for no more than 10ms per sample).

Additionally, look at patent 6,648,092 ("Hall effect seat switch") from 2003. It's not exactly the same setup as the MINI's seat belt buckle logic, but I bet it's pretty similar. From page 12:Finding an o-scope to look at the behavior of 'OUT' might be interesting, but I bet if you just find a way to tie 'OUT' to ground, the computer will think the seat belt is buckled. And it's a very simple test... depending on how accessible a ground point for the buckle is, of course.

I think the airbags are likely concerned more with the weight in the seat, rather than the state of the buckle. Just a guess, though.

If the buckle logic is satisfied on the back end, without obstructing the buckle receptacle, there shouldn't be any interference with the normal operation of the buckle. If there was, then there would be no real benefit over the dummy buckle idea.

Good point. If so, it'd be easy to just pull out a bit of belt to test any buckle ideas. That way the problem could be tackled in pieces.

 

This grounding has been tried and resulted in an "Air Bag Waring Light" just as shorting them, disconnecting them and putting a resistor on them.

 

I didn't see grounding the output listed as one of the three things people have tried. Do you know who tried it, and how (what ground point they used, etc.)? 30+ threads is a lot to look through, so I don't expect you'll know off the top of your head, but I'm hoping more details might prove helpful.

 

Oh the


HUGH-

 

^^ reminds me of the book "I'm a Manatee"