Drivetrain Alta Prototype testing completed.
5th Gear
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 636
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Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
And others that have tested have found different results.
I was running 100 Octane from a local 76 station for the high octane tests.... But what's really needed is for one that's tested and found better results to do that, then replicate my method, and see if there's something in the testing methods or what.
So, what I did wasn't a total end-all of IC evaluations, but it does say that there's
1) Small benefits from coatings.
2) Small benefits from OCCs.
3) There's merit in the flow through design.
4) CA gas sucks.
And it raises some questions about the efficacy of more traditional TMICs. But if you search on the subject, you'll find a lot of people who have found benefit as well. I'm just not one of them, and it's an open question as to why.
Matt
I was running 100 Octane from a local 76 station for the high octane tests.... But what's really needed is for one that's tested and found better results to do that, then replicate my method, and see if there's something in the testing methods or what.
So, what I did wasn't a total end-all of IC evaluations, but it does say that there's
1) Small benefits from coatings.
2) Small benefits from OCCs.
3) There's merit in the flow through design.
4) CA gas sucks.
And it raises some questions about the efficacy of more traditional TMICs. But if you search on the subject, you'll find a lot of people who have found benefit as well. I'm just not one of them, and it's an open question as to why.
Matt
logically speaking however, a bigger i/c would be more efficient (presumably), but its still a tmic, and for the amount of moulah for that upgrade is where the problem is i think.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 1
From: New Brunswick, NJ
Originally Posted by PARTSMAN109
I spoke to a guy at Bell Intercoolers a while back about the "front to back" ambient flow intercooler such as the Alta prototype. I explained to him the dimensions of the factory IC and how it is set up in the MINI with the ambient air going north-south and the charge air going east-west. The dimensions I gave him for the stock IC were about 11Lx6Wx2H. I explained to him that I would want a front to back ambient flow core about 3H(give or take depending on where the inlet and outlet were welded on) x11Lx6W. He said that I would be cutting down the surface area of the stock IC by half, which would not make for a very efficient IC. With the stock IC being roughly 11Lx6Wx2H, the 11x6 being the surface area the ambient flows through, if you reduce that down to the ambient flowing through 11x3 or even 11x4 it won't be as efficient as a IC that has ambient flowing through an area of 11x6. I know you can probably fit a bigger core in between the SC runners, but not big enough to make any real difference. Granted, I like the idea of the ambient air flowing front to back through the IC, it just looks like it would be a better design, but with the space limitations of the MINI, I just don't think it will make enough difference to justify what it will cost.
Originally Posted by ingsoc
I wouldn't be so quick to discount the possibility, though. The amount of air that flows through may be higher even with the smaller front fascia of this design, simply because there could be less resistance to flow behind the unit- air could flow faster through the core, potentially. It looks like maybe the Alta unit does not do this so well, since there is less efficiency, but I don't believe that that is necessarily due to the configuration. It could just be that there is too little space between the vanes of the core. Only after properly optimizing the various design parameters can we see if this new configuration is beneficial...
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
There's no reason a redesigned scoop can't be incorporated into this product. As it is the scoop flushes air up and over.
The ideal would be to lower the front bottom of the scoop to optimize the flow for this new design. Air will follow a radiused surface so this design could actuallly set slightly below the opening and still be effective.
Adding an additional 15-20mm to the stacked height of this IC will open the options.
Larger fin area, larger tubes etc.
I would also add an insulator to the bottom of this IC.
The ideal would be to lower the front bottom of the scoop to optimize the flow for this new design. Air will follow a radiused surface so this design could actuallly set slightly below the opening and still be effective.
Adding an additional 15-20mm to the stacked height of this IC will open the options.
Larger fin area, larger tubes etc.
I would also add an insulator to the bottom of this IC.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,340
Likes: 5
From: Woodside, CA
The version of the TMIC I tested...
had a thermal efficiency of 61%. I think that air leaks around the front, and the diverter needs a bit of work (like everyone I've seen).
Whether you have a stock with an aftermarket scoop, or an aftermarket IC, make sure that the diverter doesn't leak. There are a bunch of threads on this......
Matt
Whether you have a stock with an aftermarket scoop, or an aftermarket IC, make sure that the diverter doesn't leak. There are a bunch of threads on this......
Matt
3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 190
Likes: 1
From: Boston, MA
Has anyone ever instrument-tested the Front Mount intercooler that is out there? I thought Randy Webb sold it, but I don't see it on his webiste right now...
This seems like the best solution for big power, but I never saw test data to back it up...
RM2k5
This seems like the best solution for big power, but I never saw test data to back it up...
RM2k5
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,340
Likes: 5
From: Woodside, CA
Anybody out there want to lend me other manufacturers units?
I feel a little bad that only the Alta stuff was tested. When TonyB and I tested a stock GRS, we saw slight benefits (but like the Alta TMIC worse thermal efficiency) with standard gas. But I didn't have all the testing rigs I do now, so we could only look at the T-MAP sensor data.....
If anyone out there has another manufacturers rig that I could test, I'd love to "borrow" it for a few days so that we can get some more comparative numbers......
Matt
If anyone out there has another manufacturers rig that I could test, I'd love to "borrow" it for a few days so that we can get some more comparative numbers......
Matt
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,340
Likes: 5
From: Woodside, CA
Some more comments...
the Alta TMIC made a bit more power with the 91 octane because the timing didn't retard quite as much.
When TonyB and I tested the GRS, it didn't cool as well as the stock, but had a bit less back pressure.
IT seems making power in CA isn't easy! Damn!
Anyway, I'm looking for a GRS, and a GTT TMIC to test.
I'll flog my car if anyone will pony one up for a few days. I do have a stock IC I can lend, but I don't have an extra stock diverter.....
Matt
When TonyB and I tested the GRS, it didn't cool as well as the stock, but had a bit less back pressure.
IT seems making power in CA isn't easy! Damn!
Anyway, I'm looking for a GRS, and a GTT TMIC to test.
I'll flog my car if anyone will pony one up for a few days. I do have a stock IC I can lend, but I don't have an extra stock diverter.....
Matt
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
the Alta TMIC made a bit more power with the 91 octane because the timing didn't retard quite as much.
When TonyB and I tested the GRS, it didn't cool as well as the stock, but had a bit less back pressure.
IT seems making power in CA isn't easy! Damn!
Anyway, I'm looking for a GRS, and a GTT TMIC to test.
I'll flog my car if anyone will pony one up for a few days. I do have a stock IC I can lend, but I don't have an extra stock diverter.....
Matt
When TonyB and I tested the GRS, it didn't cool as well as the stock, but had a bit less back pressure.
IT seems making power in CA isn't easy! Damn!
Anyway, I'm looking for a GRS, and a GTT TMIC to test.
I'll flog my car if anyone will pony one up for a few days. I do have a stock IC I can lend, but I don't have an extra stock diverter.....
Matt
I've got the GTT but you would have to do some grinding to get it to fit
! Plus you would have to do some grinding on th ehood piece as well!! How about lending me your thermometers and rubber horn connectors for a week. 
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,340
Likes: 5
From: Woodside, CA
Nope....
Originally Posted by SpiderKnight
Were these tests done with a stock pulley?
Webb 15% pully,
HAI,
M7 V1 60mm TB,
Denso IK22s.
JCW Injectors
Kingborne Wires
Pilo Coilpak
OBX header w stock cat
One-ball exhaust....
MTH standard.
I think that's it....
Matt
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