On Tuesday, I drove my completely stock '03 MCS into Helix Minisports ( http://www.helix13.com ) and had my car dyno'ed. 144.1 whp. That evening, before leaving, the MINI was dyno'ed again. 161.7 whp. The only changes were Helix installing a Helix / P&D 15% supercharger pulley, and an MTH chip that I installed myself through the diagnostic port under the dash. A wideband A/F meter was used (in front of the cat) to accurately record the mixture during the dyno runs.

The pulley alone yielded 13.0 whp in the runs with the MTH chip, and 13.7 whp in the runs with the stock chip. The chip alone yielded 3.9 whp in the runs with the Helix / P&D pulley and 4.6 whp in the runs with the stock pulley.

Here are dyno plots showing all 4 combinations of chip and pulley:





Here is a comparison of air pressure both before and after the supercharger. This was logged with a very early prototype version of BiM-COM software from the company where I work.

 

Very nice A/F plots! I've been meaning to take a drive up to Helix and see what they can do. Are you able to divulge how much this ran you?

Are you worried at all about affecting your warranty?

 

You'll have to call Helix for pricing. As far as warranty - what's a warranty? According to the little clear sticker that was on my windshield, using my non-MINI-approved cell phone voids the warranty.

 

<<On Tuesday, I drove my completely stock '03 MCS into Helix Minisports ( http://www.helix13.com ) and had my car dyno'ed. 144.1 whp. That evening, before leaving, the MINI was dyno'ed again. 161.7 whp. The only changes were Helix installing a Helix / P&D 15% supercharger pulley, and an MTH chip that I installed myself through the diagnostic port under the dash. A wideband A/F meter was used (in front of the cat) to accurately record the mixture during the dyno runs.>>

For us who do not know ......
What is a MTH Chip ?
What is a wideband A/F meter?
And ..most important....by adding the pully and all the above...you gained 17.6HP?????

Peace,
D

 

>>For us who do not know ......
>>What is a MTH Chip ?

http://www.mth-powerchip.de/e_home.htm

>>What is a wideband A/F meter?

The ECU controls Air/Fuel mixture in order to maintain power, efficiency, and emissions. A/F is expressed as either a ratio (14.7:1 for example) or as a Lambda value. With iso-octane ("ideal" gasoline), Lambda of 1.0 is equal to 14.7:1 A/F. This is known as "Stoichiometric", a condition where there is a perfect balance between oxygen molecules and the various hydrogen and carbon based molecules in petroleum. With the oxygenated gasoline that most of us use, actual A/F ratio of 15:1 is closer to stoichiometric.

If Lambda is greater than 1.0, then there is a surplus of air and the engine is running lean. If Lambda is less than 1.0, then there is a surplus of fuel and the engine is running rich. It should be noted that the ratios are mass-based, not volume-based.

So, why don't we always run at 1.0 all the time? Well, we do MOST of the
time. At cruise and idle, mixture is held tightly to 1.0 to keep the catalytic convertor at optimal efficiency, so the emissions are minimized. However, when we need acceleration, the mixture gets richer. Why? Maximum power is made between 0.85 to 0.95 Lambda (12.5 to 14.0 A/F with iso-octane). So, under acceleration, mixtures get richer. Sometimes you want to get even richer under acceleration to keep detonation (pre-ignition of the mixture from excess cylinder temperatures) away. The 1.8T in particular, has a relatively high compression ratio for a turbocharged engine, which especially under lots of boost, is very succeptible to detonation).

So, how does the engine monitor the mixture? It uses O2 sensors that measure the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gas. The more oxygen, the leaner the mixture. Typically, narrow-band O2 sensors are used, which have a response like this:

:smile:

 

Terrific explanation.....well done
Thanks for taking the time and adding all the details.
After reading it a "few" times...it's simply a math problem of sorts.
Now If you ask me to explain it to someone else....well thats quite another story, but I do get the jest of it.

Now lets go down the road w/ this......

If you get 17.6HP at the wheels w/ this mod....
adding this to existing mods that some of us have...
ie QS exhaust & air-intake = 15HP at the wheels + 17.6= 32.6HP
magnaflow & air-intake = 18HP at the wheels + 17.6= 35.6HP
If my cyfering is correct we now have a.... ~195-199HP MCS
Not tooo shabby!!!!!

QS & air intake =$1040
Magnaflow &air intake =$840

Depending on the cost of this Helix mod????????
<<The only changes were Helix installing a Helix / P&D 15% supercharger pulley, and an MTH chip that I installed myself through the diagnostic port under the dash>>
We can all be real close to 200HP MCS at a "reasonable" price??????

Now... Andy please give us a ball park figure of the actual cost of this mod or Eric (of helix) if you are reading the posts which i know you do ...jump in...come on ...don't be shy :smile:...lol

Randy come on dude...jump into this conversation..... :smile:. Let's get your input as well.

Peace,
D

 

>>If you get 17.6HP at the wheels w/ this mod....
>>adding this to existing mods that some of us have...
>>ie QS exhaust & air-intake = 15HP at the wheels + 17.6= 32.6HP
>> magnaflow & air-intake = 18HP at the wheels + 17.6= 35.6HP
>>If my cyfering is correct we now have a.... ~195-199HP MCS
>>Not tooo shabby!!!!!

I'm pretty dubious of the claimed intake and exhaust claims. This seems to be era of the inflated power claims by many tuners. Just check http://www.mcshp.org to see the tuners claiming 20+ hp from an exhaust, 40+ hp from a chip. I encourage everyone who puts their car on a dyno to run baseline runs on the same dyno with the same car of course.

I'll be testing some intakes and exhausts in the near future though, both on the dyno and out on the road (logging acceleration, air pressures, etc). Also, remember that you cannot simply add the gains of each mod. There are synergies and cancellations that come into play when mods are combined that make the final results unpredictable until you actually test it for yourself.

 

Hi Dennis,
The horsepower and torque numbers rarely add up like your calculations. Let's say an airbox mod will yield a torque curve tweak that gives a 4 lb/ft improvement all the way from 2500 to 6000 rpm which calcualtes to a peak hp gain of 5. The same mod by a different manufacturer might give no gain until 5500 rpm and from there to the redline a slight flattening of the torque curve (instead of a drop) will yield a horsepower gain of 8. There was no gain in torque. Combined with an exhaust system that yields all top end gains, the second intake mod would should show a nice horsepower gain. With the first intake mod the power might not show up as the numbers added together but it would give a larger gain but in midrange.
Keep in mind, horsepower numbers are measured only at their peaks. Area under the curves is not generally reported in numbers, only in feel. Years of running aircraft engines and Porsche engines on engine dynamometers has taught me one thing: atmospheric conditions, most notably temperatures, have huge effects on the power readings. Keeping intercooler temps low can make big power gains with no chips or hardware. Sometimes power gains measured with increased boost on the dyno don't show up on the road/in the air because the intercooler is now unable to drop the temperature to lower boost temps. These increases in boost and increases in temperature at the throttle plate can cancel power gains and hurt engines. That's why we may need more effecient intercoolers and ducting to go with our boost increases to realize the full power gains safely.

I apologize for being long-winded, but it is a complex answer.
Sol Snyderman
Perfect Power

 

Good explanation! I wish engines were measured in area under the horsepower curve, but that is rarely done.

 

Hi Andy,
Glad to see a Ross-Tech representative on MCO. Say, "Hi", to Uwe. We use your Vag-Com software. Glad you agree with my explanation. I wish horsepower could be tacked on as easily as it appears, but you know how happy combinations can sometime yield more than their totals, too. Good custom software for these mod-combos is key to finding all the available torque/hp. Fortunatetly a lot of people are testing this stuff for the Mini owners.

Sol

 

Thank you both for your input...
I'm obviously a novice to this arena, so the explalnations are a bit too advanced for my total comprehension..
As I see it froma laymens point of view....
There are many variables that can skew the results/numbers and for lack of a better phrase an "apples to apples" dyno test environment is imperitive to provide prudent results.

Let the tests begin... then :smile:

Peace,
D

_________________
2002 MCS:PS/B, w/Lapis Int.

 

So maybe the best indicator of engine performance would be seeing 0-60 runs or 1/4 mile times at a drag strip rather than the "HP" gains?

 

Hi Folks,

This is a very good thread on hp #s. Sol and Andy have both hit the nail on the head! Many people claim hp numbers based on just adding all the hp numbers up. This simple math is simply not true.


D,

We have the pulley kit in stock for $190 plus S/H.

 

Performance runs are a great way to test mods. The best tests will be with no holeshots or gear changes. A good low end test would be: floor it in third at 2000rpm and click your stopwatch at 2500rpm. Click again at 5000rpm. Repeat several times. Toss out high and low times and average the rest. A top end test would be similar but start at full throttle in third at 3500rpm and click the stopwatch at 4000 and again at 6500.The higher the gear that you perform the test in, the clearer the results will be and the more likely you'll spend the afternoon in jail. Do it in a safe place. The problem with these tests is that the numbers you get are meaningful only to you and some other Mini owners who have the same gears/tires, etc... That's OK. After performance tests to get the results you can head back to the dragstrip and see what kind speed at the end of the quarter you'll get. You can't cheat there. ETs are largely in the holeshot.

Sol

 

perfpow,

You and I are definitely on the same wavelength. One thing I have done stock, and will do modded (once the roads stop being slippery) is shiftpoint analysis:



Real-world acceleration improvement is key, after all that's why we mod our cars! Some parts, like air intakes, may show wildly erroneous power changes on the dyno. The only way to accurately test is out on the road. I need to try one of these with my MINI:

http://andy.lasvegastech.com/vwfiles/dynoplot5.xls

 

Andy,
We use the Aim/Drack data acquisition systems for linear acceleration and much more. It's valuable info to know when and if to short-shift and by how much. On two of our race cars we've also got the continuous Lambda info along with exhaust temperature and throttle position data. This is how we do our final mapping on race engines, not on the dyno.

Sol

 

Andy,
My head is starting to spin just reading all the tech talk, I am repulsed, yet I cannot look away......Love all the hard work! Do you guys ever sleep? You had mentioned a few posts ago....

Quote. "There are synergies and cancellations that come into play when mods are combined that make the final results unpredictable until you actually test it for yourself."

After reading this my memory was triggered from a earlier post somewhere that I don't believe was ever answered. Will making mods, i.e. intake, exhaust, pulley etc in time send a message to the ECU to change settings/ mixture rations or something of that nature that would negate the changes previously made? Any truth to this?. And if so would one have to make changes to the chip with no matter what mod is made?

Sorry, but I've been told there was no such thing as a dumb question.

 

all that rithmetic is bunk!

thers no substitute for cubic inches.

 

Not a dumb question at all. The ECU has the ability to learn trim values that go between the built-in maps in the "chip" and the output to the sensors. Let's say for example, that a given RPM and load calls for 10 degrees of timing advance (the spark fires 1/36th of a rotation before the piston reaches the top of the cylinder). But, the ECU has noticed over time, that the operator put in some crappy fuel and the knock sensors are picking up signs of detonation under heavy load. The ECU may have a trim value that alters the 10 degrees to make it, say 8 degrees. There are trim values for stuff like ignition timing and injector pulse width. These trim values can be reset with the dealer's diagnostic computer.

As my plots show, there is major power to be gained with a pulley swap even with stock programming. The ECU may be learning some new values for knock limit and mixture trim, but certainly, I can still light up the tires just as easily today as I could on Tuesday (I put about 300 miles on the clock since then, in a variety of driving conditions).

What goes on inside the ECU is a bit of voodoo for everyone except:

A) Engineers at Siemens (and possibly BMW/MINI)

and

B) Anyone who has actually disassembled the ECU. AFAIK, nobody has done this for Siemens ECU's. There are maybe 5 people in the world who have actually done this for Bosch ECU's. The lead engineer for this company is one of them:

http://www.revotechnik.com/ukrevo.html

Bosch publishes some excellent reference materials for their engine management, such as ME-Motronic. Unfortunately, Siemens is not quite so forthcoming.

 

>>all that rithmetic is bunk!
>>
>>thers no substitute for cubic inches.

Correct! 109 MORE cubic inches of air (45 cu.in. X 2.06 / 0.85) stuffed in every engine revolution is a good thing.

 

Great info Sol and Andy - keep up the good work.

Both are completely correct - and I've stated it before as well, performance mods are not cumulative.

Andy, if you could give me a call to discuss the nuances of dyno testing, that would be great! I spent one entire day figuring out how many different ways there are to "trick" the dyno into higher numbers - for the sole purpose of making sure I have the most accurate numbers. If there are a few more things I can do to make the evaluations more even, I would love the input. I just want to find out what the best products are out there, and I don't care which one emerges to the top - I just want to provide the data that shows which one it is.

I've been very happy so far with the results of dyno testing, but honetsly, I get more out of going to the track and comparing the different mods. I will try Sol's reccomendation on the 3rd gear acceleration test. That does sound more accurate than a 0-60 time where variables such as shift points and holeshots are introduced.

Based on the testing I've found so far, here are the max numbers I think are reasonable for some of the most common mods:

Intake - 7 or so hp
Exhaust - 14 or so hp
Exhaust and intake - 18 or so hp
Wires - 2 or so hp

Note that the intake is worth about 7 and the exhaust about 14, but the total number for both combined isn't 21. Again, the gains aren't cumulative.

All of the data available is pretty exciting to me! I will be hitting the dyno again on Thursday to check out the software improvement with the pulley. Andy, if you get a chance, give me a call before that. After that, I'll be doing the head as well and dynoing again on Saturday. In between, I've got track time scheduled for Wednesday (anyone else interested in Second Creek that day, contact me and I'd be glad to do an impromptu Driver's Ed).

Randy
randy@mini-motorsport.com
720-841-1002

 

>>Sol Snyderman
>>Perfect Power

Sol,
Are you the same Perfect Power that makes the SMT6 piggyback? I spoke to Bob @ Ida Automotive about installing it in my S but I have nightmares about cutting the stock harness.


--
Cheese

 

Believe it or not, that is not me. I was stunned when I let my website lapse and they got it. That's how I first heard of them. I started Perfect Power Inc, in 1981 building aircraft engines and Porsche 911 at Midway Airport. We moved to Libertyville in 1984. The other Perfect Power is fairly new, within the last few years, I believe. We race Porsches. My new website is perfectpowerinc.com It should be up again in few weeks.

Sol

 

Hi Randy,

Well finally picked up my MCS on Saturday and it's time to make decisions on my 1st and 2nd mods. Thought I'd go for the cold air intake, but not until I get a sense for the stock performance.

Two Questions:
- How best should I judge the baseline performance of my stock MCS before and after the air intake mod? Don't have access to a dyno.
- After my e-mail to you from the input I received from the Eaton lead design engineer of the MCS supercharger, I believe the 13 whp gain from the pulley alone doesn't match his input. Thoughts?

SMKKVK

 

The pulley info is spot on, I've seen several different dynos now, as well as my own, and have no doubt the pulley makes that much. If it isn't 13, it's more like 16. Dynos in CO, AZ, and FL can't all be wrong.

The best way I think to measure the performance is by taking a multi-test approach.

If you are an experienced driver, do some lap times at the local road course. You should be able to turn fast laps within 1 second of each other in order for this to work though. Do before and after modification runs.

I think you would be surprised at the availability of dynos out there. Most places that have one will rent it out for $50-100 per hour.

I like Sol's suggestion of doing a third gear acceleration run - no holeshot, no gear shifts. Again, do a before and after.

Lastly (and most controversial), do you feel anything? That's really what it's all about for most street drivers anyway, so it should make a difference to your seat of the pants.

First 2 mods considering bang for the buck: intake and exhaust. First 2 mods all things considered: intake and rear swaybar.

Hope that helps! Let me know if you have any other questions.

Randy
720-841-1002
randy@mini-motorsport.com