Dang buddy, I feel bad for you. I was speaking with George at MINI-Madness and he was telling me about the serious grief the H&R install is giving you.

Have you got the blasted things figured out? I heard that even on the softest setting they are rubbing. And it didn't have anywhere for you to attach the ABS/Brake lines??

Hope all is working out. Let us know, as this is a definite factor in the H&R, if they possiblly have MINI fit issues.

Thanks! :grin:

R

What is going on? I was ready to order H&R coilovers this week. If there is some type of problem lets hear about it.

JLM and I both have the same set of issues with the H&R coilover installation on our respective MINIs. We have both been in contact with H&R. H&R USA has been very interested in our situation and very responsive. I really don't want to comment any further, except to say that I expect this to come to resolution sooner rather than later. At that time I will post more.

Until that point I would like to thank you for your support and also thank you for your continued patience and understanding while this is being worked behind the scenes.

Dave

Dave,
Can you send me a private message with some information? If I shouldn't be ordering H&R I would certainly like to know about it.

No need to panick, it's some fitting issues that surely can be resolved as Dave says. :grin:

R

i have spent considerable time fitting, measuring, de-mounting, fitting etc. and have found out the following:

my original ride height was 24.5" wheel well to floor at the front axle, stock suspension. With the H&R's fitted, that changed from 22-3/4" (1-3/4" drop) to 23-1/2" (1" drop). In order to raise the ride height, you thread the lower spring perch up the shock body, but at it's extreme, you get 1" not the 3/4" drop I wanted.
there are a couple of ways to get some more range: add a 1/4" spacer between the top strut mount and the inside of the fender well; add a spacer on top of the adjustable lower spring perch, effectively re-gaining the thread adjustment range.
I'll do the latter, and regain enough thread to only drop the car 1/2", giving me some breathing room.

the brake hose clip needs a bit of a tweak to properly locate the hose.

At the rear, the thread range is adequate, but the droplink for the sway bar will contact the spring at mid bump on the stiffer bar (maddness bar) setting only. That can be tweaked by bending the bar about 1/2" outward, requiring some heat.

H&R is working on a solution for the ride height; probably a replacement spring.

The units appear otherwise to be excellent, (they use Bilstein shocks) and If they hold to H&R's reputation should perform well.

Since the end of last week, jlm and I have had the new H&R coilovers. We were some of the first in the country to do so. As part of being the first, sometimes there are bumps in the road.

I encountered several issues with my H&R coilovers and jlm had some of these issues as well. There are three principle issues

Issue #1: Front Ride Height

The H&R coilovers are suppose to be adjustable through a range of 0.7 to 1.5" of total drop from stock ride height. In my case, the *maximum* front ride height I could achieve with the system was 1.75" below stock ride height. At that point, the collars were all the way at the top of the strut body threads, and I had 2" of ground clearance.

That was totally unstreetable, so with the help of Randy @ MINI Motorsport we re-installed the stock struts with the H&R springs onto my MINI.

As I mentioned earlier, both jlm and I have been in contact with H&R USA. I can't say enough about Steve @ H&R USA. He was very interested in making his customers happy, and in working on this issue with H&R's engineers. During the installation process, Randy and I took pictures as part of the development of an H&R coilover how-to. These installation pictures, pictures of the coilovers, and the pictures you see below, were provided to H&R USA, who in turn forwarded them the H&R in Germany to get their engineers involved. Very very cool to see a company react this positively and this quickly. Major props to H&R!

In the end, as jlm mentions above, H&R plans to produce a new spring which will raise the ride height back into the desired adjustment range. Another route they should consider, in my opinion, is to lengthen the strut body and then shift the threads up an inch.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...iloverRake.jpg

This picture shows my MINI with the H&R coilovers adjusted to the maximum ride height. The front is dropped 1.75"

My MINI has had three different suspension set-ups, so here are pictures of each set-up with the same wheels and tires. Each measurement was made on flat level ground with 38 psi in the tires. All measurements are from the ground to the bottom of the plastic wheel arch molding.

The Front Suspension

The pictures that follow are the stock suspension, then the H&R springs, then the coilovers.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...FrontStock.jpg

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...tHRsprings.jpg

Notice how the H&R springs have a drop of 0.75" in the front. The H&R Coilovers should be able to reproduce this same wheel gap, but even at their highest setting, my front coilovers were still a full inch lower than even the H&R springs, for a total drop of 1.75"

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...HRcoilover.jpg

Notice how there is *no* wheel gap at the highest ride height

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ranceFront.jpg

The H&R coilovers *in their highest setting* (no threads left showing on the coilover body) only allowed for ~2" of ground clearance.

Issue #2: Brake line tab angle

Both tabs on the front of my struts, and jlm's struts, were at an angle which caused the brake lines to rub on the control arms. H&R is investigaing the cause further, but in the interim, we were both able to adjust the tab angle to stop the rubbing.

The Rear Suspension

Again, the pics that follow are Stock, H&R springs, and finally the H&R coilovers.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co.../RearStock.jpg

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...rHRsprings.jpg

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...HRcoilover.jpg

Neither myself or jlm had problems with the rear ride height adjustment.

Issue #3: MINI Madness Rear Sway

There were two areas that arose with my set-up since I also have the MINI Madness rear swaybar installed.

1) When using the MINI Madness rear sway (a fairly common suspension modification) in the front setting, the H&R coilovers do not have enough clearance to the drop link. I learned this the hard way, after the H&R coilover springs made contact with the back of the upper drop link bolt and bent my rear drop link.

2) In the rear setting in the MINI Madness Rear Sway, the rear trailing arm of the suspension makes contact with the rear lower corner of the swaybar. This causes a clunking sound each time the bar contacted the arm. This problem only occured at the upper part of the ride height adjustment, not through the entire range of adjustment.

Both of these issues may be correctable with the BMP adjustable drop links. It is puzzling to me that these problems are not an issue with the H&R springs on the stock struts.

H&R plans to source a MINI Madness bar for fit check on their own MINI as a result of our findings.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...aranceRear.jpg

In this picture you can see pretty dramatically how much more ground clearance is available in the back and just how little light is getting through at the front.

Status

My H&R coilovers will be sent back later this week.

Again, I really would like the thank Steve at H&R for his interest and quick action on this problem on our behalf. This experience has not soured me on H&R, quite the contrary. I am reassured more now than ever that H&R is committed to making a product that will satisfy their customers needs.

Finally, thanks to Randy at MINI Motorsport for all of his patience with this project.

Wow, Dave!

Excellent reportage! I'm sure you'll keep us posted on the latest breaking news with this situation! Thanks for sharing your knowledge. :grin:

Cheers!
Clover :wink:

if you are reading the numbers, you might have noted that Dave's front ride height started at 25.5" stock vs mine of 24.25", mesurirng at the same place. We both ended up at the same place with the H&R at its highest setting 23.5". therefore he records a minimum drop of 1-3/4 and I had 1".

H&R (and other makers) list the "amount of lowering" to be 3/4-1.5" depending on the adjustment setting, so what gives? Dave had 1-34, I had 1"?

What it boils down to is either ground clearance and/or wheel well clearance so the results are more usefully stated as that rather than lowered amount.

what we both determined is that 23.5" ride height is too low and indicates that the H&R needs another 3/4" or so of upward adjustment range.

The reason I am adding the H&R's is to be able to fine tune the corner weight and make use of a better designed shock/spring setup. I'm not as concerned about lowering per se. I drive the car on the street.

It is curious Dave had such a high ride height with the stock set up. Mine is an inch lower...how about some cntributors putting the tape tho their cars?

I do have 16" wheels and 204-45 Toyo tires, which lower the car about 3/8", but Dave had wheels and tires also.

Yes, I would very much agree that 23.5" was too low to be streetable.

My measurements were all with the same wheels and tires. When I talked to Steve at H&R he said they usually would measure from the center of the hub to the wheel well molding - thus taking the tires out of the measurement all together.

My reasons for wanting coilovers were similar to jlm's. Mostly I didn't really want to be lowered further than 1" and I wanted to be able to even out the rake of the car.

An ideal coilover set-up for me would be +0.5" to -1.0". That way, I could raise the car in the winter, and then revert to a slightly lower stance in the summer.

I just wanted to offer my opinion on the subject.

When you mentioned this.

"The H&R coilovers *in their highest setting* (no threads left showing on the coilover body) only allowed for ~2" of ground clearance."

It sounds like you have the coilover actually set at the lowest setting. I have an E46 BMW 328ci with H&R coilovers and it is set to the lowest setting and that means the adjustable perches were screwed all the way down not exposing an threads on the shock. If it is possible could you take a picture with the wheel off of the car?

Another interesting thing is that with the H&R coilovers on the BMW any type of aftermarket sway bar would also hit the shocks like you stated on the mini. Many people have either bent the sway bar or they have just not used it at all.

DoNDoN,

Welcome to MCO!

I actually did Dave's install here at MINI Cooper Motorsport, and while it may sound confusing because of the wording, the springs were definitely in the full ride height position. What Dave means is that there were no threads showing at the top of the strut body. The perch is spun all the way up the threaded body.

A full How-to on this install (and it will apply to the LEDAs, Spax, and KWs) is following shortly. It is actually very similar to the H&R Spring install.

Hope that clears things up.

Randy

Yeah, thanks for the clarification Randy.

the collars were spun all the way to the end of the threads on the piston end of the strut. If I had lowered the collars to the bottom of the threads (nearer the control arm end of the strut) the ground clearance could have dropped to as little as 1" in the front. Obviously extracting the jack would be a little difficult at that point.

One more thing to mention: H&R reviewed the 60+ pictures we took of the installation and confirmed that there were no signs the installation was incorrect in any fashion.

DoNDon: As Randy said, welcome to MCO! :cool:

i'm making a spacer to get that extra 3/4" lift.

as a point of reference, you can thread the adjuster upwards until the top of the inner portion (that fits within the spring coil ID) is flush with the top of the strut outer body. this gives you another 10mm range beyond stopping at the last thread.

this was from Steve at H&R who had just consulted with their german engineer. When you do this, and run the locknut to its lowest setting, there is 1-1/2" between the locknut and upper adjuster nut.

I did all this and still need at least another 1/2" lift for my purposes.

Another tip from Steve is to roll the car back and forth after an adjustment in case any scub in the tires is limiting the natural suspension travel.

been busy; removed the rear coilovers and the madness bar, put the bar in my 20 ton press and flared it out 1/2" on each end; now the drop link clears at the stiffest setting.
am also making the 3/4" lift spacer for the front.

H&R: are you reading this! all you need is a lathe and a 20 ton press to fit your coilovers!

I really admire your tenacity with this jlm. I sent mine back yesterday.

....SIXTY pictures of the install?!?!?! :eek: And I thought I was overly documentative! :lol:

R

Your car looks awsome in the profile pictures. :grin:
Are you going to post the install pictures so we can see how its done?

My ride height reasoning:

IN SUMMER: I want to be about 3/4" to 1" lower front and rear, for looks and for a lower roll center in autocross.

IN WINTER: I want to have the option of raising the car 0.5" to allow for more ground clearance from the large ice chunks that fall off of trucks. More clearance in the winter may also permit the MINI to tackle large snowfalls a little more easily.

Thus, right now I'm leaning toward the LEDA suspension as it enables you to specify where the 2" of ride height adjustability begins and ends: i.e. +0.75 to -1.25 OR + .5 to -1.5 OR 0 to -2 OR whatever else you want.

There might be something to that "low" and "high" car thing, because JLM and I both started out from different ride heights, but finished at 23.5" (f) with the same 2" ground clearance, which we both deamed to be unstreetable.

I believe Randy is going to write up a coilover install (very similar to the spring install that's already up).

I machined a 5/8" spacer that sits on the adjustable collar supporting the spring, so now my car is only lowered 3/8".

dave- glad to here that you have heard of the wierd height thing to.
I did not realize that you were in co. The comment about having to avoid ice chunks on the road through me off for a second. That is something I don't believe that I have had the pleasure of ever doing. My climate is abit more tame.
Are you sure a coil over is what you should go with. I mean the height adjustability is nice but I would imagine that the actual condition of the roads where you are, are not so hot. Since you are talking of only lowering your car only fractions of an inch perhaps you should just go with a lowereing spring again.
I would think that you would be worried about all the interior rattles that might spring up do to driving a "road/race" (coil-over) suspension on some weathed roads.
my 2$ :smile:

i heard somewhere that mini has a variety of part numbers for suspension springs, depending on how your car is outfitted. If true, they might be compenesating for the extra weight of the sunroof, or whatever, or just oem'ing different spring manufacturers.

as mentioned before, how about some readers post their axle center to wheel well distance so we have some data? also wheel well to ground for comparison

S-Towne: coilovers are streetable in Colorado. Just not the set of H&R's I got.

The H&R coilovers should be able to produce a ride height that is *higher* than the ride height my MINI has now with the H&R sport springs. I have had no ride height induced problems with the sport springs.

Oh, and the road conditions in Colorado are awesome. :grin: :lol:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co.../blx.sized.jpg

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co.../bly.sized.jpg

i hv been using my KW V2 for 2 weeks i'd like to tell everyone not to lower this car too much.

i did not take before/after pics but i can still compare my pics to dave's pic and concluded that my wheel / fender clearance is more than dave's for sure and it still rub occasionally with only myself (150lb) in the car and it'll rub more if one passenger in the car and i guess i don't hv to say what will happen if 3 passengers in the car.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...view_photo.php

there is a knob at the top of each strut for me to adjust the soft / stiff setting.
let's say turning 3 rounds of that knob is the stiffest.......

rear - turned to 2 rounds (harder than stock but still not the hardest)
front - 1.5 rounds (harder than stock, middle setting)

my tires already peeled off alot of plastic from my inner fenders.....not much left to peel anyway......

i think i'll raise the height by 0.25" front & rear OR set both front & rear struts to its stiffest....to avoid the rubbing issue.

what do you guys think??

i also worry about the madness swaybar too, don't know if it'll hv any contact with my rear springs / shocks???